Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 13:37:44 GMT
Nefertiti, you sound strong and dignified in your choices. I agree, no one, and I mean no one of any attachment style should be a pawn in someone else's dysfunctional process. It happens the other way also, I can attest. The point is not to blame an attachment style as a whole, but to look at whether or not your own actions and beliefs are guided by your values, boundaries, self respect, and healthy autonomy. Compatible people will not have to give those up for each other.
|
|
|
|
Post by mrob on Nov 4, 2019 13:42:49 GMT
Well. The rules are well known if you can spot the signs. The red flags actually stand out. It’s amazingly accurate. The other person is generally clueless though, yes. It takes two to play this game, however. Avoidants aren’t in a vacuum. This has been a good opportunity to grow. It’s not wasted.
|
|
|
|
Post by kittygirl on Nov 4, 2019 19:02:50 GMT
I think sometimes there might be an OVERemphasis here on attachment as being the only thing that shapes one's personality (makes sense as this is an attachment forum so we are all coming to the table with a certain narrative), but I know with my FA partner, he is exceptionally apologetic about being "standoffish" (his words). He may not fully understand why he is doing what he is doing, but he definitley feels bad (and in his case) extremely EMBARRASSED about withdrawing (embarrassment and shame are really big for him). Granted, he has never had a full "deactivation" as such but will be cold and distant for days sometimes. Now again, this may just be his personality and may be independent of the attachment stuff, but he absolutely knows he is doing something hurtful. It's just that the "flight" part of his panic wiring will always rule supreme.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 20:19:39 GMT
Well. The rules are well known if you can spot the signs. The red flags actually stand out. It’s amazingly accurate. The other person is generally clueless though, yes. It takes two to play this game, however. Avoidants aren’t in a vacuum. This has been a good opportunity to grow. It’s not wasted. I'd say cluelessness goes both ways!! And, plenty of clues were there, both ways. It takes two people entranced in their own narrative to be able to mess something up as colossally as this kind of situation. It's just that it only takes one to snap out of it, heed the pertinent information, and then have whatever emotional reaction and choices that ensue. And yes, all is not lost if something is gained in terms of self awareness and improved relationship skills for the future. |
|
|
|
Post by Nefertiti on Nov 4, 2019 20:41:16 GMT
This is so true. The avoidant is clueless about how the partner is feeling. So any angry reaction to ghosting and returning suddenly (acting like nothing happened) is seen as undeserved and you, the non-avoidant partner, find yourself confused all over again. It's just a rollercoaster ride. Never-ending. Always back to square one. The only one who lives in confusion and angst is the non-avoidant partner. The avoidant partner is pretty much comfortable with things as they are. Just as you have described. Is this more typical for DAs vs. FAs though? Or a DA approach to it? I thought typically FAs were aware of the pain/suffering they've caused from disappearing, hurting at afraid of losing what they had because of their actions, and that's why they're nervous to reconnect after deactivating whereas DAs are more matter of fact thinking / more dismissive like the above motive example? Maybe it is typical of DAs. I don't really know for certain. From what I have read, FAs manifest in different ways. My FA is not dismissive at all. I can see that Jules' FA isn't the typical ghoster who cycles back either. The issues for me were the ghosting for unspecified periods of time and then refusing to acknowledge that it happened. Lying to me about how busy he was, apologising profusely for being "busy", promising to make it up to me and then doing it again, and again, and again. He also failed to address relationship issues after many attempts on my part to bring them up. He simply wouldn't have any kind of deep discussions. That is where he is comfortable. Gets to be with me when he needs it and also gets to avoid real intimacy beyond the sexual. Isn't that FA-ish? The result was that the relationship dynamics changed me. Changed who I was on a deep level and I did not like it. I didn't know it was changing me but I was really uncomfortable with the whole dynamic. Gosh! I read those books and saw myself. Saw my reactions to many situations, not just this one. At this point, it doesn't even matter whether he is FA or DA. He is avoidant period. Eventually, if I keep pushing for what I think is a normal relationship, he will have no choice but to progress. Deny sex, ghost me for longer periods and eventually end it. For his own peace, for his own inner comfort, he will adopt more of the typical avoidant behaviours. He has to survive the emotional onslaught and will do anything and everything to do so. This is what I have learned. Now, I may be a considerate person. I may be the kind, like everyone here, who goes in search for answers because we care deeply. We want to help. It comes naturally, I guess. But I will not go out like that. Oh no. I have exited with grace. So much grace that I know it is futile to have the kind of closure that comes with a discussion. I don't need to have a discussion, I don't need answers. I have them. And his answers are and have always been a variation of a big fat NO. I just wasn't understanding him before. He was speaking a foreign and unknown language to me. Now that I know about avoidants, I get it and I am okay with it. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 20:56:59 GMT
A little example of how two people can be speaking a whole different language (as well as leaving important things unsaid...) It's not the same as the situations were are discussing but it's an example of a huge disconnect:
I knew a guy in my early twenties, we had a lot in common, hung out platonically a bit, visited each others houses. I saw him as a friend. He acted like a friend. We talked on the phone frequently, confided a lot of things, it was cool. I thought he might be gay, because of some mannerisms, and I never heard him talk about a girl. One day, I told him that a guy asked me out and I was thinking of accepting.
He was devastated, and ripped me for wasting his time. He was hurt. It turns out, he was romantically attracted to me and I had no clue. I wasn't attracted to him, in that way. He never said anything about that. He must have thought we were building to a date or something. I wasn't even on the same planet. Ar that time I was completely unaware of attachment, but not an evil person with bad intentions. Anyway, he told me off and our friendship ended, I went on to date that other guy and it was a disaster.
Lots of disconnect when people are unaware. I guess now I would see signs he was interested but his longing in life as far as relationships was different from mine. He went about it in a sideways way, and expected me to read his mind in some ways I guess. I don't know... it's pretty foggy out there sometimes. But not everyone is out consciously effing people over.
|
|
|
|
Post by mrob on Nov 4, 2019 21:24:49 GMT
A little example of how two people can be speaking a whole different language (as well as leaving important things unsaid...) It's not the same as the situations were are discussing but it's an example of a huge disconnect: I knew a guy in my early twenties, we had a lot in common, hung out platonically a bit, visited each others houses. I saw him as a friend. He acted like a friend. We talked on the phone frequently, confided a lot of things, it was cool. I thought he might be gay, because of some mannerisms, and I never heard him talk about a girl. One day, I told him that a guy asked me out and I was thinking of accepting. He was devastated, and ripped me for wasting his time. He was hurt. It turns out, he was romantically attracted to me and I had no clue. I wasn't attracted to him, in that way. He never said anything about that. He must have thought we were building to a date or something. I wasn't even on the same planet. Ar that time I was completely unaware of attachment, but not an evil person with bad intentions. Anyway, he told me off and our friendship ended, I went on to date that other guy and it was a disaster. Lots of disconnect when people are unaware. I guess now I would see signs he was interested but his longing in life as far as relationships was different from mine. He went about it in a sideways way, and expected me to read his mind in some ways I guess. I don't know... it's pretty foggy out there sometimes. But not everyone is out consciously effing people over. Yep. Been there, although I would never have told you off.... I would have turned everything internal and just quietly died in the corner. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 21:33:25 GMT
mrob, it was all such an awkward situation in the end. I don't remember aalllll of the details but I remember being surprised that he saw things so differently than I did. He was a really good person. He was actually a male nanny for a couple of disabled twins. He adapted his van to be able to care for them, and we talked about that quite a bit. I knew he was a wonderful person, and looking back he must have been reading signs into our interactions. But I figured he would reveal his sexuality at some point, like at some point I was going to meet a special person in his life. I remember just feeling kind of stupid and sorry and then I turned my attention to some asshole hottie. I was in a fog and I'm amazed that wasn't obvious to anyone who encountered me, looking back.
|
|
|
|
Post by mrob on Nov 4, 2019 21:39:45 GMT
Growing up, I heard a lot of conversations that I should never have heard about men, and their sleaziness. When I started to become attracted to women, this posed a real problem. I had no communication skills and asking women out was sleazy. What could I do? I had to approach the situation indirectly. It’s all so screwed up. I did a lot of nothing. A lot of imagining, a lot of longing. In hindsight, it’s amazing I’ve been married twice.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 21:44:48 GMT
Growing up, I heard a lot of conversations that I should never have heard about men, and their sleaziness. When I started to become attracted to women, this posed a real problem. I had no communication skills and asking women out was sleazy. What could I do? I had to approach the situation indirectly. It’s all so screwed up. I did a lot of nothing. A lot of imagining, a lot of longing. In hindsight, it’s amazing I’ve been married twice. I don't know what his hesitance was, but I know he was a pure gentleman. I was so unavailable though, O know that now looking back... I was in no way capable of healthy romantic intimacy. I had no concept or desire. I had no real picture of what that all looks like. I also had done very very little dating to that point. So, it may be that he saw me as a tough nut to crack and that inspired his attachment anxiety. That is probably accurate but really, I don't know. |
|
|
|
Post by mrob on Nov 4, 2019 21:59:10 GMT
I have to watch myself. I’m attracted to powerful, high achieving (and generally unavailable) women. I look through the cracks to see the softness and tenderness that they mostly don’t want to see themselves. It’s a trap, acting out old ideas.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 22:06:07 GMT
I have to watch myself. I’m attracted to powerful, high achieving (and generally unavailable) women. I look through the cracks to see the softness and tenderness that they mostly don’t want to see themselves. It’s a trap, acting out old ideas. I get that. It's actually a sweet approach. But could get you in trouble. |
|
|
|
Post by mrob on Nov 4, 2019 22:54:09 GMT
Frought with trouble, and with the AP aspect of the FA prominent wanting love because I give it, then feeling ripped off when it doesn’t happen, or happen in the way I envision it. Insecure attachment.
I’ve had that lesson (again, recently) that I have to learn to be just friends with a woman.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 23:45:42 GMT
Frought with trouble, and with the AP aspect of the FA prominent wanting love because I give it, then feeling ripped off when it doesn’t happen, or happen in the way I envision it. Insecure attachment. I’ve had that lesson (again, recently) that I have to learn to be just friends with a woman. I think that can happen with humans in general, although it's prominent in AP. I could be wrong but it seems like disillusionment happens all through the spectrum including secure to some extent. I have a question though, if you don't mind answering. I have felt disillusioned before about not having love returned, my nervous system and emotional/cognitive response was to withdraw, deactivate. For you, if you have an AP drive to connect and it's thwarted, as FA, do you deactivate or do you chase and seek relief with the person? Earlier you said you wouldn't chew me out in the scenario described, you'd withdraw and feel pain, so I am guessing that is the answer-, but maybe that's just in that particular scenario. I get confused, because sometimes the misunderstanding about DA is that we don't love, or don't want connection, or don't have that interpersonal stress of neediness but underlying it all, we do. We just have an opposite reaction. than the anxious drive to connect. And, we consistently withdraw through good or bad so that withdrawal gets misinterpreted. That's the go to. Just like anxiety to connect is the go to for AP, and FA has a disorganized approach of either/or. There was a time I was deactivated from my partner but feeling sad about that, and when my therapist asked me if that sadness had any longing to it at all, I said no. There was no longing for him, I was sad and withdrawn but absolutely no drive to repair or wish for him to come get me. That's the futility response of my deactivation. There is no longing, only loss and stillness in order to be able to regroup. Sometimes deactivation is because things are good. Sometimes it's because things are intolerably bad. Can't figure that out from the outside, you'll get it wrong most likely! |
|
|
|
Post by 8675309 on Nov 5, 2019 0:45:47 GMT
"then feeling ripped off when it doesn’t happen, or happen in the way I envision it."
Even secures would feel this. Secures still take a punch if things dont work/unrequited love. It happens to all of us, its part of dating. Our system may not get all triggered up because of it though. I dont think its just an insecure thing, its a human thing.
|
|
