ju
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Post by ju on Nov 23, 2019 3:14:48 GMT
3 months is a short time frame for this much conflict, as well. Whilst I would usually agree with this, it doesn't take into account the ex situation. He became distracted, anxious and reliant on me as she reved up her toxic behaviour. I've seen the emails she sends and she is relentless in trying to control and provoke a reaction. He has his child 50/50 and is a fantastic dad. The ex is using the most immoral tactics to try and revoke the contact and this would cause any loving parent, extreme distress. The correlation between her extreme behaviour and his anxiety is clear and very understandable. This has put a new relationship under huge pressure. He told me a few weeks ago he felt like he would kill himself if he lost contact with his child. This triggered high anxiety in me...huge! I'd openly said that this stressful ordeal with his ex, made me think it really isn't the right time for him to embark on a new relationship with me. I explained I felt I needed more than he could give me right now (understandably). He said I was what was keeping him positive and he only felt he could relax when he was around me. He initiated more and more contact with me and whilst I felt torn between wanting to support/sooth him, enjoying his company when he is 'himself' but also feeling like I was sacrificing 'me time'. Although I love being around him, I'm aware I was using all my energy on him, his child and not to mention taking care of my own three darling children. My uni work has slipped as a result and I've felt compassion fatigue with the children I work with. Whilst I love him and I'm innately empathetic and always want to try and help people, I think even the most strong and secure person would start to feel anxious under these conditions. From the feedback he gives me, I definitely feel like he has PTS too. He has major trust issues due to his past relationships. He has told me yesterday that I've destroyed his trust. I've pointed out that unfortunately I doubt there was trust there to begin with. I've reached out and said lots to him and knowing how he is a deep thinker (as I am) he can just take all the time he needs to ponder over what I've said. As the days go on I feel like the distance is giving me back my clarity. I'm a people person so prefer being around others, but I need to really get back to enjoying the short bouts of 'me time' again. Nobody is to blame, we are who we are and we both play our parts in the dynamics of a relationship. Everything happens for a reason and I believe people come into our lives as a lesson (positive experience or negative). I don't know which way this will go, but I need to trust in life and cruise this wave accepting and feeling all the emotions that go with it. I'm positive that although it feels painful now, I can take this experience and move forwards with love and compassion for my FA and love and compassion for myself. A relationship is a two way thing and for me this quote sums it up "True Love Does NOT Evade or Turn Away. True Love Embraces and Turns Towards" I'm new to the forum and haven't figured out how to do multiple quotes. I appreciate all the feedback and perspectives you guys have offered. This forum is a great place and I'm pleased to have found it! |
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Post by happyidiot on Nov 23, 2019 3:35:33 GMT
For example, I’m in the early stages of dating someone who I can see is somewhat emotionally unavailable. I have to make a decision, but I have to bear in mind my own condition. Does her condition work in with mine? Does a relationship have to conform to solid lines to work? But, I can’t expect her to be any different to how she is, right now. I take it or leave it. Sounds like rationalization to me. How? |
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Post by serenity on Nov 23, 2019 3:38:31 GMT
I think the victim blaming thing can be taken a little too far. Its absolutely normal for most people to feel anxious and distressed when an avoidant who `was amazingly attentive' and `intitiated contact daily' during the honeymoon period suddenly bails. And its normal to not be able to flick love off like a switch the moment an avoidant reveals their true nature. We all have issues, but people on the spectrum of AP attachment can go on to have very successful relationships with just a little awareness, and by choosing a more reassuring partner. They don't have to `fix themselves' up perfectly in order to succeed in relationships. They just need the right one. It's odd to me that you would refer to observations that acknowledge a potential complimentary dynamic to love avoidance (namely, love addiction) as "victim blaming". The very site you provided a link to is for the treatment of love addiction, not for "victim blaming". The "victim" and "blame" perspective that you have is different from the acknowledgement others have of a mutually created dynamic. All relationships are dynamics, between two people. In my opinion the only person seeking to lay any blame here is you, and naturally on the avoidant. In reality, they chose each other, each influenced by a heavy trauma background. If that doesn't require an amount of deep work and recovery, well then truly that's a unique situation. Unreal, in fact. That's an odd way for you turn it around, lol. Victim blaming is common for DA's so I'm just going to say you are behaving in line with your attachment system here. It doesn't matter how a Secure or AP behaves with an avoidant, the pattern is for an avoidant to be available/interested/attentive during a honeymoon period, followed by a swift deactivation/discard that causes considerable anxiety and distress. It well known they do it because intimacy triggers them. You can be super chill and they still do it. Yes, you can trigger them by pushing them for sure. But failing to push them results in the same thing..deactivation. I would suggest to anyone experiencing intense anxiety because of being dumped after a honeymoon period with a new lover , to not label themselves as pathologically AP until they have experience in a secure relationship. If they still feel hyper anxious and its for no reason, then get help. Anxiety can be there for a reason. To tell us when a situation and person is unsafe. |
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Post by mrob on Nov 23, 2019 3:40:44 GMT
For example, I’m in the early stages of dating someone who I can see is somewhat emotionally unavailable. I have to make a decision, but I have to bear in mind my own condition. Does her condition work in with mine? Does a relationship have to conform to solid lines to work? But, I can’t expect her to be any different to how she is, right now. I take it or leave it. Sounds like rationalization to me. I’m interested too... how? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2019 3:58:10 GMT
It's odd to me that you would refer to observations that acknowledge a potential complimentary dynamic to love avoidance (namely, love addiction) as "victim blaming". The very site you provided a link to is for the treatment of love addiction, not for "victim blaming". The "victim" and "blame" perspective that you have is different from the acknowledgement others have of a mutually created dynamic. All relationships are dynamics, between two people. In my opinion the only person seeking to lay any blame here is you, and naturally on the avoidant. In reality, they chose each other, each influenced by a heavy trauma background. If that doesn't require an amount of deep work and recovery, well then truly that's a unique situation. Unreal, in fact. That's an odd way for you turn it around, lol. Victim blaming is common for DA's so I'm just going to say you are behaving in line with your attachment system here. It doesn't matter how a Secure or AP behaves with an avoidant, the pattern is for an avoidant to be available/interested/attentive during a honeymoon period, followed by a swift deactivation/discard that causes considerable anxiety and distress. It well known they do it because intimacy triggers them. You can be super chill and they still do it. Yes, you can trigger them by pushing them for sure. But failing to push them results in the same thing..deactivation. I would suggest to anyone experiencing intense anxiety because of being dumped after a honeymoon period with a new lover , to not label themselves as pathologically AP until they have experience in a secure relationship. If they still feel hyper anxious and its for no reason, then get help. Anxiety can be there for a reason. To tell us when a situation and person is unsafe. Oddities abound, OP admits to being anxious preoccupied in relationships, DA and FA with her family My perspective isn't unique to my attachment styles, and it's not victim blaming. Your perspective is yours but it's not the final word. Others here of other attachment styles suggested the value of OP looking at her side of this dynamic for understanding and healing. No where did I blame her for anything, and in fact simply posted the other side of the equation from the web site you linked to. My suggestions have been encouraging toward awareness, not blaming. Even OP acknowledges it takes two in a dynamic, and that she is working hard on her AP behaviors. My post was join with other posters encouraging her to look within at her own issues in order to find healthy resolution and perhaps another level of healing. The first person to suggest that was alexandra, who is AP/ secure. Again, no one here is making this about blame but you. Ill add that you post along your attachment style, which seems to be relatively insecure in denial. You have listed one secure relationship and a string of failed relationships with avoidant partners. The last one has had you here posting critical and blaming comments against avoidants since it turned sour. I would offer the same suggestion to you, to look inward and not see a process of working toward more healing and security as blaming oneself, but of practicing self compassion and empowering yourself toward another secure relationship. There may be a reason that you choose avoidant after avoidant and have not yet again found "the right one." |
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Post by mrob on Nov 23, 2019 4:25:44 GMT
Right. Gotcha. I thought about that, hence the reservations.
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Post by happyidiot on Nov 23, 2019 4:47:42 GMT
Continuing with someone you know is emotionally unavailable is unhealthy and a perpetuation of your own unhealthy patterns. It sounds like you're saying the only viable people to choose a relationship with are secure, is that what you mean? My understanding is that mrob might actually not want the kind of relationship an AP or a secure person would want and so might be considering if someone who is a little distant could work for him or not. He didn't say he was dead set on continuing, just thinking about what to do. I actually have friends who are a couple and are both DAs and they are happy. They're both a bit emotionally unavailable. They never want to live with each other, or anyone. They're very independent. They don't seem to have a desire to become fully secure or fully "emotionally available." But they have a pretty secure relationship with each other because their avoidance just works well with each other. mrob asking himself whether or not it's possible if the woman he's just started dating's "condition" would work well with his own could possibly be realistic rather than rationalization. mrob, I hope I'm not speaking out of turn here, correct me if I'm wrong about any of this. I know you don't want to date anyone AP, so I don't think it's totally nuts if you're considering someone who is a little bit "unavailable." |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2019 5:00:40 GMT
Continuing with someone you know is emotionally unavailable is unhealthy and a perpetuation of your own unhealthy patterns. It sounds like you're saying the only viable people to choose a relationship with are secure, is that what you mean? My understanding is that mrob might actually not want the kind of relationship an AP or a secure person would want and so might be considering if someone who is a little distant could work for him or not. He didn't say he was dead set on continuing, just thinking about what to do. I actually have friends who are a couple and are both DAs and they are happy. They're both a bit emotionally unavailable. They never want to live with each other, or anyone. They're very independent. They don't seem to have a desire to become fully secure or fully "emotionally available." But they have a pretty secure relationship with each other because their avoidance just works well with each other. mrob asking himself whether or not it's possible if the woman he's just started dating's "condition" would work well with his own could possibly be realistic rather than rationalization. mrob, I hope I'm not speaking out of turn here, correct me if I'm wrong about any of this. I know you don't want to date anyone AP, so I don't think it's totally nuts if you're considering someone who is a little bit "unavailable." I totally get the point you're making here, and I do identify with it. Even though I am doing a lot of work to increase my emotional availability, I don't know that I will ever be inclined to a relationship that isn't a bit more distant than most would like. Avoidant/avoidant works for me, as long as a mutual level of intimacy and availability is possible. It depends upon the emotional health of each person, and a willingness and ability to adapt and feel secure in the reality of who the other person is. Also, I don't know if that applies in mrob situation, or what exactly is meant by unavailable. Avoidance is definitely on a spectrum. |
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Post by serenity on Nov 23, 2019 5:16:08 GMT
Ill add that you post along your attachment style, which seems to be relatively insecure in denial. You have listed one secure relationship and a string of failed relationships with avoidant partners. The last one has had you here posting critical and blaming comments against avoidants since it turned sour. I would offer the same suggestion to you, to look inward and not see a process of working toward more healing and security as blaming oneself, but of practicing self compassion and empowering yourself toward another secure relationship. There may be a reason that you choose avoidant after avoidant and have not yet again found "the right one." I know your heart is in the right spot, but please, you sometimes make assumptions that don't match who I am, if that makes any sense? . You've accused me (and others) of being AP so many times without knowing enough background or having the mental health training to make a disagnosis. I do know its because you care and study a lot of literature, but it doesn't help as much if its the wrong assessment. Thanks for caring though <3 I did find the `right one' for me. I had very a secure loving relationship with my SO for 15 years until he passed away. Previous to that, another 5 years in a secure relationship. I was taught young to look for secure relationships rather than people like my narc mother, and had some terrific mental health support to help me identify the difference. I stuck with my last FA ex (probably too long) because after the shock of the first deactivation, I bought into the idea that an absence of AP/anxious behaviour and a lot of distance would be soothing for an avoidant and prevent the hot-cold-deactivation dynamic. I wondered if the relationship could progress, and I was happy to go slow. Happy with him, he is above all, a wonderful friend and a valuable creative collaborator. The distance and lack of anxious acting out helped, but didn't prevent the second deactivation a year later. I didn't want to go through deactivation again, and really couldn't see enough relationship progression, so i broke up with him. We are now very good friends. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2019 5:30:09 GMT
Ill add that you post along your attachment style, which seems to be relatively insecure in denial. You have listed one secure relationship and a string of failed relationships with avoidant partners. The last one has had you here posting critical and blaming comments against avoidants since it turned sour. I would offer the same suggestion to you, to look inward and not see a process of working toward more healing and security as blaming oneself, but of practicing self compassion and empowering yourself toward another secure relationship. There may be a reason that you choose avoidant after avoidant and have not yet again found "the right one." I know your heart is in the right spot, but please, you sometimes make assumptions that don't match who I am, if that makes any sense? . You've accused me (and others) of being AP so many times without knowing enough background or having the mental health training to make a disagnosis. I do know its because you care and study a lot of literature, but it doesn't help as much if its the wrong assessment. Thanks for caring though <3 I did find the `right one' for me. I had very a secure loving relationship with my SO for 15 years until he passed away. Previous to that, another 5 years in a secure relationship. I was taught young to look for secure relationships rather than people like my narc mother, and had some terrific mental health support to help me identify the difference. I stuck with my last FA ex (probably too long) because after the shock of the first deactivation, I bought into the idea that an absence of AP/anxious behaviour and a lot of distance would be soothing for an avoidant and prevent the hot-cold-deactivation dynamic. It helped, but didn't prevent the second deactivation a year later. I didn't want to go through deactivation again, so i broke up with him. We are now friends. With all due respect, we are posting on a thread by an OP who claims AP behavior, being AP in relationships, (not just this one), insecure in family relationships, with a history of childhood trauma. Where am I "accusing" her of AP behavior? That information lead in the first post. Then, attention turned to his behavior and I simply posted later in the thread with a link about her anxious side of the dynamic. My belief is that you yourself are becoming defensive of her over my "blaming" and "accusations". Her AP behaviors are acknowledged in her own account. I provided a link to the anxious side of the avoidant side that you posted. Please get comfortable with me supporting an acknowledged AP in her request for support, by providing information about the anxious side of the dynamic. Your take is typically to focus on the avoidant. And, you do make generalizations about avoidants. I'm a DA in awareness. What you see as "victim blaming" may be actually one person willing to humble herself and working openly and publicly on her own insecurity, and offering others the support and encouragement to do the same. I do not see that from you. I see an insistence that you are secure, with a defensiveness about AP, and a critical and blaming perspective of avoidance. It is true that my intention is to be helpful. I have offered support for what individuals posting here can properly identify and control- their own side of things. I understand that you see it the way that you do, but I disagree, particularly due to the writing of the OP about her own relationship style. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2019 5:39:56 GMT
It sounds like you're saying the only viable people to choose a relationship with are secure, is that what you mean? My understanding is that mrob might actually not want the kind of relationship an AP or a secure person would want and so might be considering if someone who is a little distant could work for him or not. He didn't say he was dead set on continuing, just thinking about what to do. I actually have friends who are a couple and are both DAs and they are happy. They're both a bit emotionally unavailable. They never want to live with each other, or anyone. They're very independent. They don't seem to have a desire to become fully secure or fully "emotionally available." But they have a pretty secure relationship with each other because their avoidance just works well with each other. mrob asking himself whether or not it's possible if the woman he's just started dating's "condition" would work well with his own could possibly be realistic rather than rationalization. mrob, I hope I'm not speaking out of turn here, correct me if I'm wrong about any of this. I know you don't want to date anyone AP, so I don't think it's totally nuts if you're considering someone who is a little bit "unavailable." I'm saying emotionally unavailable people cannot have a healthy relationship. Show me where ever in psychology sources it is ever encouraged to engage in a relationship with an emotionally unavailable person. A "bit" emotionally unavailable is not what I'm talking about. We all go through that phase at times. Not living with another person is not a measure of emotional availability. I am very independent, have never lived with anyone, and have had fully secure relationships being fully emotionally engaged with another person. But I need time to recharge alone. That is not avoidance. Having the ability to meet the needs of someone who needs more emotional engagement than I do is another matter. You can just have different needs that are not unhealthy. Some people who engage with emotionally unavailable people enjoy the challenge of bringing out an emotional side of that person. It's not necessarily because they don't have the capacity to engage emotionally themselves or need space or time to recharge or need to retain independence maybe I would say from what I've seen in posts from @inmourning . It's because they are actually subconsciously attracted to the idea of the challenge of winning that person over because there are elements of insecurity involved. Winning over someone unavailable means you are worthy. I.e. you are in a relationship for self esteem. I was criticized once for my career being more important (by my then partner). It was. We were two months into a relationship. At that time, at that point, that was one of the most important things to me. He was gradually becoming important, but my work is a huge part of who I am. This is irrelevant to emotional health. If I have someone who can't preoccupy themselves with their own things and needs more emotional support than I can give with what I have to contribute to my job, I cannot be with them. This is not avoidance. Someone who has children from another relationship may have this problem with someone who doesn't and can't handle the attention being divided. Emotional health is not an issue but the expectation of emotional attention is. All very good points and observations as well, @janedoe! I think a very important consideration also, is consistency. Even avoidants crave it, but it can't be found in an anxious avoidant due because of the amount of triggering. If two people are able to be mutually satisfied with a consistent relationship that isn't triggering and reactive, or manipulative, then it's good enough I'd say. I don't think you can really change completely down to your core- you integrate and work with your innate tendencies, and become more secure with work but I don't think you totally lose your connection to your original style. |
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Post by serenity on Nov 23, 2019 5:43:51 GMT
I know your heart is in the right spot, but please, you sometimes make assumptions that don't match who I am, if that makes any sense? . You've accused me (and others) of being AP so many times without knowing enough background or having the mental health training to make a disagnosis. I do know its because you care and study a lot of literature, but it doesn't help as much if its the wrong assessment. Thanks for caring though <3 I did find the `right one' for me. I had very a secure loving relationship with my SO for 15 years until he passed away. Previous to that, another 5 years in a secure relationship. I was taught young to look for secure relationships rather than people like my narc mother, and had some terrific mental health support to help me identify the difference. I stuck with my last FA ex (probably too long) because after the shock of the first deactivation, I bought into the idea that an absence of AP/anxious behaviour and a lot of distance would be soothing for an avoidant and prevent the hot-cold-deactivation dynamic. It helped, but didn't prevent the second deactivation a year later. I didn't want to go through deactivation again, so i broke up with him. We are now friends. I do not see that from you. I see an insistence that you are secure, with a defensiveness about AP, and a critical and blaming perspective of avoidance. Lol. Once again, your assumptions are frustrating. I have never proclaimed myself as `a secure' . I said I've had long term secure relationships; i attached securely because they were secure relationships. My attachment style with avoidants swung FA in romantic relationships, secure in friendship. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2019 5:51:02 GMT
I do not see that from you. I see an insistence that you are secure, with a defensiveness about AP, and a critical and blaming perspective of avoidance. Lol. Once again, your assumptions are frustrating. I have never proclaimed myself as `a secure' . I said I've had long term secure relationships; i attached securely because they were secure relationships. My attachment style with avoidants swung FA in romantic relationships, secure in friendship. I've read a lot of your posts focusing on insecure attachment in others and not in yourself. Your perspective is frustrating for me also, and as I read through this thread and saw all the anxious, secure, and FA members commenting on the AP behavior of the OP, I marveled at the fact that I am the only member you have singled out with the talk of blaming and accusing someone of being AP without ample supporting evidence. In spite of OP's repeated claims that she is AP. I would appreciate an end to our interaction here. It's absurd to me, to be targeted by you for my posting about the AP dynamic on an AP thread. |
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Post by serenity on Nov 23, 2019 5:58:28 GMT
It sounds like you're saying the only viable people to choose a relationship with are secure, is that what you mean? My understanding is that mrob might actually not want the kind of relationship an AP or a secure person would want and so might be considering if someone who is a little distant could work for him or not. He didn't say he was dead set on continuing, just thinking about what to do. I actually have friends who are a couple and are both DAs and they are happy. They're both a bit emotionally unavailable. They never want to live with each other, or anyone. They're very independent. They don't seem to have a desire to become fully secure or fully "emotionally available." But they have a pretty secure relationship with each other because their avoidance just works well with each other. mrob asking himself whether or not it's possible if the woman he's just started dating's "condition" would work well with his own could possibly be realistic rather than rationalization. mrob, I hope I'm not speaking out of turn here, correct me if I'm wrong about any of this. I know you don't want to date anyone AP, so I don't think it's totally nuts if you're considering someone who is a little bit "unavailable." Some people who engage with emotionally unavailable people enjoy the challenge of bringing out an emotional side of that person. It's not necessarily because they don't have the capacity to engage emotionally themselves or need space or time to recharge or need to retain independence maybe I would say from what I've seen in posts from @inmourning . It's because they are actually subconsciously attracted to the idea of the challenge of winning that person over because there are elements of insecurity involved. Winning over someone unavailable means you are worthy. I.e. you are in a relationship for self esteem. I was criticized once for my career being more important (by my then partner). It was. We were two months into a relationship. At that time, at that point, that was one of the most important things to me. He was gradually becoming important, but my work is a huge part of who I am. This is irrelevant to emotional health. If I have someone who can't preoccupy themselves with their own things and needs more emotional support than I can give with what I have to contribute to my job, I cannot be with them. This is not avoidance. Someone who has children from another relationship may have this problem with someone who doesn't and can't handle the attention being divided. Emotional health is not an issue but the expectation of emotional attention is. The way therapists explained that to me, is people are attracted to the familiarity of people resembling their caregivers, and can be groomed for their entire childhood to cater to the most difficult caregiver. That is what drives `the challenge' that you mentioned.. its the subconscious challenge to win the love of someone critically important in childhood , who couldn't love you or meet your needs. When you are aware of it, that the personality type is incapable of love, its possible to move past self defeating behavior like that. My mother is a narcissist. I have had very successful LT relationships with sensitive, caring empaths with great communication and conflict resolution skills. Chemistry was fantastic, but not full of angst if that makes sense? . I don't know if it would happened if I hadn't been explicitly told young that i was vulnerable to loving narcissists. |
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Post by serenity on Nov 23, 2019 6:11:24 GMT
Lol. Once again, your assumptions are frustrating. I have never proclaimed myself as `a secure' . I said I've had long term secure relationships; i attached securely because they were secure relationships. My attachment style with avoidants swung FA in romantic relationships, secure in friendship. I've read a lot of your posts focusing on insecure attachment in others and not in yourself. Your perspective is frustrating for me also, and as I read through this thread and saw all the anxious, secure, and FA members commenting on the AP behavior of the OP, I marveled at the fact that I am the only member you have singled out with the talk of blaming and accusing someone of being AP without ample supporting evidence. In spite of OP's repeated claims that she is AP. I would appreciate an end to our interaction here. It's absurd to me, to be targeted by you for my posting about the AP dynamic on an AP thread. Sorry you felt singled out Sherry. I can see your point of view. I only single you out because you're the pretty one. |
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