Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2019 21:53:00 GMT
I hope he's ok, I feel confused, I don't know if I should be mad about being dissed or supportive because he's having a shit time. It's this. This is the same, but AP goes for the latter, "I should be more supportive," every time. Because other is better than self and must be doing the right thing, and the AP feels they deserve however they're treated. I've noticed there are some similarities between styles in the thoughts or questions but then the resolution is what varies. And, the direction of movement toward or away. It makes sense given the origins- we all were trying to figure out where we stood and what we could expect from our caregivers. I haven't had a relationship where I became attached before, as I have this one. I guess a combination of a history of self-work on awareness, and the ways we have grown together. I can't remember feeling concerned about not mattering, before. But I've been with anxiously inclined people. K and I were talking about how needy we feel and it's funny, he sees himself as so needy but no probably no one in his life can see that. I know it, because we have grown close. But there is a lot of variance in avoidants also- we all have so many factors shaping our relationships. His wound is more having been oppressed and controlled. Mine is more neglect. So we have different triggers. I smiled the other day to myself, when we were talking about something he has asked for my help with. He blew my mind, I was trying to explain my approach and rationale to him and he said "I don't need to understand it, I just need to do what you tell me to do." It's 180 degree turn to vulnerability and openness from when we met, when he wouldn't take any advice from anybody, and NEVER asked for help. But if I don't text him back or answer a call? He's super needy but pretending to just be assertive and upbeat. Lol. So many ways to be messy 😂
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2019 22:19:47 GMT
Why am I not getting a response? What's going on? Am I being ignored? Am I not a priority to this person? Probably not, they just don't like me enough... but wait, maybe they're busy. Or maybe they had an accident! Oh, probably not an accident. But I'd answer right away. I must have done something, this is my fault. How do I fix it and make it right? Maybe they forgot to answer since I'm not a priority. I'll remind them, but I'll have to come off as really cool about it, or maybe apologetic, no worries and no pressure about responding! Except I really, really hope you do, and since it's my fault you're ignoring me, there must be something I can try to do, and do better, to get a response. And I'm going to panic and ruminate on this until I hear from you, but you'll never know, and I'll feel deep relief if I get back even just a couple word response. But why am I so needy and can't I just be chill and not care like everyone else??? This kind of sounds like low self esteem (thought processes) rather than anxiety (feeling). When dealing with someone who doesn't like texting much, you can lessen anxiety via adjusting your own texting style with them (eg. mirroring), and chatting to communicative friends regularly IMO. Not to be disrespectful, but seriously it's as if you post on this insecure attachment forum with absolutely no awareness of ambivalent (AP) attachment. Alexandra's post fits the pattern of low self worth and anxious thought patterns to a T. Do you make any distinction between general anxiety and attachment anxiety? www.psychalive.org/understanding-ambivalent-anxious-attachment/
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2019 22:32:50 GMT
It's like AT isn't really a thing.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2019 22:55:38 GMT
You know what? Fuck this, it's exhausting . This is why I keep to myself. I'm sad and confused and angry and I'm sick of someone else having the power to do that to me. I gave it to him. I'm taking it back. I chuckled at this because after describing the anxious side, I almost added that now I say "EFF this. I'm not going through THAT again." lol. Hahahaha! I got so confused when K told me that I'm so DISMISSIVE, it didn't occur to me that saying "Fuck this, it's exhausting" inside my head, was so apparent from the outside. I thought - YOU'RE the dismissive one! Good thing we talk stuff out, this wouldn't go anywhere. It's crazy how blind you can be to your own stuff that is blantantly obvious from the outside. Many times he will see me not caring when actually I am caring to a painful degree. So I make sure to be honest about all that, it's a learning curve. Ive read that avoidant infants have measurably the same amount of actual anxiety on the inside as anxious ones- they just look oblivious. I get that to a point- the cognitive narratives are pretty different but it took me a long time to actually feel the distress that I was walling off instinctively. Also- the difference of unconscious vs conscious fears- avoidants consciously fearing being controlled, or overwhelmed; and unconsciously fearing abandonment. Ambivalent; consciously fearing abandonment, and unconsciously fearing being controlled or overwhelmed? is that true? I know that I didn't realize my fear of abandonment until recently- only it's not a fear of being left or rejected as much as a fear of loss from catastrophe- death or something. So, not related to not being good enough, related to being destined to be alone- like the fates have ruled and enforced it. An immutable law.
|
|
|
Post by mrob on Dec 8, 2019 22:55:59 GMT
“I gave it to him, now I’m taking it back” there’s the crux of the difference between dismissive and fearful avoidants.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2019 23:48:15 GMT
“I gave it to him, now I’m taking it back” there’s the crux of the difference between dismissive and fearful avoidants. Is it? I love when you give me little bits of info like this, I am always trying to understand the differences. I've thought before, that because I want connection I just must be FA.... but then it was pointed out to me that that is normal, it's dismissive of me to deny and suppress it to the degree I do. When I put it on paper what I actually do to avoid it, it's clearly dismissive. But I am still mystified about what goes on in others minds- forever I thought everyone was like me. How confusing when you find out that one of hear things is not like the others... and it's you. Lol. !!
|
|
|
Post by serenity on Dec 9, 2019 0:10:20 GMT
Low self esteem and insecurity is part of the root of all insecure attachment styles. Mirroring doesn't lessen the anxiety at all. You can mirror but still be insecure about the other person's interest in you, which will then cause anxiety. I agree, but what I am suggesting is that feeling anxious doesn't have to spiral into negative self talk and acting out anxiously. (this is the basis of CBT therapy work) . Acting out anxiously can cause more anxiety if it leads to you being intrusive, causing a conflict, or more of the `rejecting' behavior that triggered anxiety to begin with. Feeling anxious is just a feeling. What you do or think because of it is your choice. You can sit with it, and decide if its internal (a trigger from the past ) or caused by present circumstances (intermittent reinforcement, the person isn't interested etc). If its caused by a trigger, CBT therapy and mindfulness will help you challenge the negative self talk that may accompany those feelings. Those are often mental habits learned in childhood, when children have a tendency to self blame, rather than challenge the perfection of their parents that they depend on for survival. You can learn to turn the negative self talk around. Positive affirmations, reality checks with a therapist, and many other therapies all help. If your anxiety is based on present circumstances/relationship conflict, then talking it out with your partner or choosing someone else are your likely best options.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2019 2:51:48 GMT
Hahahaha! I got so confused when K told me that I'm so DISMISSIVE, it didn't occur to me that saying "Fuck this, it's exhausting" inside my head, was so apparent from the outside. I thought - YOU'RE the dismissive one! Good thing we talk stuff out, this wouldn't go anywhere. It's crazy how blind you can be to your own stuff that is blantantly obvious from the outside. Many times he will see me not caring when actually I am caring to a painful degree. So I make sure to be honest about all that, it's a learning curve. Ive read that avoidant infants have measurably the same amount of actual anxiety on the inside as anxious ones- they just look oblivious. I get that to a point- the cognitive narratives are pretty different but it took me a long time to actually feel the distress that I was walling off instinctively. Also- the difference of unconscious vs conscious fears- avoidants consciously fearing being controlled, or overwhelmed; and unconsciously fearing abandonment. Ambivalent; consciously fearing abandonment, and unconsciously fearing being controlled or overwhelmed? is that true? I know that I didn't realize my fear of abandonment until recently- only it's not a fear of being left or rejected as much as a fear of loss from catastrophe- death or something. So, not related to not being good enough, related to being destined to be alone- like the fates have ruled and enforced it. An immutable law. And with the right person, this is incredible that you can progress and work through things. Part of my current attachment style is not just from childhood but from my relationship experiences. I keep choosing untrustworthy men who give some sense of being vulnerable and so there's an underlying feeling of trust when someone does that. When I tell someone "sometimes I act like X" I suddenly realize I may be giving away my ....MO (I'm not sure how to describe this). If I DO decide to pull away from someone, now they'll know exactly what is going on, and I don't want them to know that. That is too vulnerable. With guy 1, guy 2, I had no problem sharing this, but then after I found them to be untrustworthy, I realized I had lost my whole sense of privacy. So now with each guy, when I start getting close, I think that I may also find that I need to pull away from them also upon finding them to be untrustworthy. The last guy used to tell me about how he would push people away. I felt like he was revealing those things that I wouldn't even reveal to him. I did not tell him about any of these struggles I've had in the past. I didn't trust him. I was honest in how he was directly hurting me, which was plenty. I never felt a fear of control until I was controlled. Now I see it in men all the time and I have this harsh reaction to any glimpse of it. I can tell you that will never ever happen again to me. And I don't mean having obligations or responsibilities to someone. I have no problem with that. I mean someone with an unhealthy need to control. We fought ALL of the time because I just cannot be controlled. The fear of abandonment...I never ever ever felt this. But now I do wonder. I think I deep down have fears as my family ages. I want to say the last guy brought some of this out of me. I don't know if he triggered something or caused it. But I had never considered it before. How you put it though, I relate to that a lot. I have always felt this way. That I would just always be alone. But I never took time to dwell on it. I have a glimmer of hope as I keep trying to search for a partner. But...I almost feel like it is too ingrained in me. Yes, it's very cool to work through this with the right person. It's not the same as the AP/avoidant thing. It's been rough at points in its own way, but the level of basic similarity and understanding has been a foundation for better rapport than I could achieve with AP. Also I don't feel attacked or accused, I feel misunderstood sometimes but so does he, we just are able to tackle it more effectively over time. There is a level of sweetness and empathy and camaraderie between us that enables us to bond especially after we work through something together. I had no awareness of an abandonment fear, until more recently. I have always had a sense that I couldn't get confortable because the other shoe was about to drop- but like I said that wasn't about the other person dropping the shoe. It was more like a natural disaster of bad luck would strike me out of the blue. I'm sure I experienced a lot of that as a kid- not being able to just trust, good outcomes were not the norm at all and I really felt left to fend for myself in difficulty. Or when things were decent, for that matter. I don't know if it's a fear of abandonment as much as a fear of putting my weight onto something (someone) that won't be able to be there for me. That's nothing surprising about DA I guess... a fundamental conditioning that says I have to gut this out alone, the good and the bad. I understand now that'a not the case but it's a pervasive status quo, automatic reflex, the level my blood finds when I lie down to sleep. It's so powerful and deep. I just try to dismiss that, too. I find that if I just keep showing up and doing what I'm learning to do, I feel positively reinforced by empathetic response from him, and from my friends, and others. So I just am training myself in a new way, a better way. Still sometimes it breaks my heart to be so vulnerable. But what's the option? It's not the best option, to be on an island cut off, without help, without comfort from people, without the richness of a shared experience . There is no way I could have understood that, before the long journey of awareness. I guess it would be like trying to describe an orange to someone who never tasted or saw an orange, and couldn't possibly crave it because what they eat is beans. All beans, all the time. Beans are good. Hearty, filling, sustaining. But they aren't alive and juicy like an orange. Once you have an orange you know that beans aren't everything
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2019 2:58:20 GMT
There is something to be said for the body of research that says that attachment anxiety is a nervous system response, and that it is accompanied by a predictable set of beliefs and thought patterns and strategies. Early childhood conditioning. It's instinctive, and patterned after how humans operate apparently. What I was curious about is what are those thoughts, that accompany the AP pattern in response to the topic trigger. Thank you all who have shared that, it's very illuminating to me about the different thought processes and narratives that accompany the various insecure styles. I have insecures of other types around me and it can be helpful to know what they may be experiencing. Sometimes it's very different than how it looks on the outside, or it's just a mystery. Of course the best way to understand is to ask someone directly- which is what I've done here, to understand what is going on internally.
|
|
|
Post by mrob on Dec 9, 2019 3:41:21 GMT
It is incredible. I have explanations for my own responses to situations. It doesn't stop the responses from happening, doesn't stop me from getting scared or mad (generally related to fear as well), but I can deal with them better. In addition, I find that amazingly quickly I can see where other people are, and understand their responses. It's astonishingly predictable. And for the first time in my life, I can trim my sails and make decisions for me.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2019 3:48:17 GMT
It is incredible. I have explanations for my own responses to situations. It doesn't stop the responses from happening, doesn't stop me from getting scared or mad (generally related to fear as well), but I can deal with them better. In addition, I find that amazingly quickly I can see where other people are, and understand their responses. It's astonishingly predictable. And for the first time in my life, I can trim my sails and make decisions for me. So good! Hell yeah!
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Dec 9, 2019 5:26:10 GMT
Why am I not getting a response? What's going on? Am I being ignored? Am I not a priority to this person? Probably not, they just don't like me enough... but wait, maybe they're busy. Or maybe they had an accident! Oh, probably not an accident. But I'd answer right away. I must have done something, this is my fault. How do I fix it and make it right? Maybe they forgot to answer since I'm not a priority. I'll remind them, but I'll have to come off as really cool about it, or maybe apologetic, no worries and no pressure about responding! Except I really, really hope you do, and since it's my fault you're ignoring me, there must be something I can try to do, and do better, to get a response. And I'm going to panic and ruminate on this until I hear from you, but you'll never know, and I'll feel deep relief if I get back even just a couple word response. But why am I so needy and can't I just be chill and not care like everyone else??? This kind of sounds like low self esteem (thought processes) rather than anxiety (feeling). When dealing with someone who doesn't like texting much, you can lessen anxiety via adjusting your own texting style with them (eg. mirroring), and chatting to communicative friends regularly IMO. AP isn't the same as generalized anxiety. I'm describing an example of being AP and negative narrative that can follow when being triggered by a lack of bid for communication response (in this case, texting). I used to adjust my texting to simply mirror my dates, and it did nothing to quell the triggering because it wasn't addressing the underlying problem at all (which for AP is fear of abandonment compounded by low self esteem in relation to those people you're AP with). It just masked the problem better to whoever I was hoping would text me. I eventually worked through it as part of the process of earning secure and addressing my AP nervous system triggers. But since that's time consuming to recondition, in the meantime, the upsetting response the OP is having is because it's a new relationship and not yet on stable ground. She's afraid if she tells him how she feels, he'll tell her something she doesn't want to hear or he'll leave. But not talking to him about it is making her want to end it instead because she doesn't want a new relationship that potentially won't meet her texting needs and will trigger her. Before she makes that decision, the secure thing to do is simply tell him what she needs and see what happens. Even if it doesn't go well, it's baby steps in the reconditioning process to see that it won't be the end of the world if you speak up, which will be confidence in the self and in communicating honestly with others. So it's a positive step forward no matter the outcome.
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Dec 9, 2019 5:29:43 GMT
Also- the difference of unconscious vs conscious fears- avoidants consciously fearing being controlled, or overwhelmed; and unconsciously fearing abandonment. Ambivalent; consciously fearing abandonment, and unconsciously fearing being controlled or overwhelmed? is that true? I'd read this somewhere a year or two ago (wish I remembered where) and have since said it on the board a couple times because it made so much sense to me, yes.
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Dec 9, 2019 5:38:34 GMT
Low self esteem and insecurity is part of the root of all insecure attachment styles. Mirroring doesn't lessen the anxiety at all. You can mirror but still be insecure about the other person's interest in you, which will then cause anxiety. I agree, but what I am suggesting is that feeling anxious doesn't have to spiral into negative self talk and acting out anxiously. (this is the basis of CBT therapy work) . Acting out anxiously can cause more anxiety if it leads to you being intrusive, causing a conflict, or more of the `rejecting' behavior that triggered anxiety to begin with. Feeling anxious is just a feeling. What you do or think because of it is your choice. You can sit with it, and decide if its internal (a trigger from the past ) or caused by present circumstances (intermittent reinforcement, the person isn't interested etc). If its caused by a trigger, CBT therapy and mindfulness will help you challenge the negative self talk that may accompany those feelings. Those are often mental habits learned in childhood, when children have a tendency to self blame, rather than challenge the perfection of their parents that they depend on for survival. You can learn to turn the negative self talk around. Positive affirmations, reality checks with a therapist, and many other therapies all help. If your anxiety is based on present circumstances/relationship conflict, then talking it out with your partner or choosing someone else are your likely best options. This also assumes the person is aware of what's going on and that there are projections of less conscious triggers at work. That's often not the case.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2019 5:48:21 GMT
This kind of sounds like low self esteem (thought processes) rather than anxiety (feeling). When dealing with someone who doesn't like texting much, you can lessen anxiety via adjusting your own texting style with them (eg. mirroring), and chatting to communicative friends regularly IMO. AP isn't the same as generalized anxiety. I'm describing an example of being AP and negative narrative that can follow when being triggered by a lack of bid for communication response (in this case, texting). I used to adjust my texting to simply mirror my dates, and it did nothing to quell the triggering because it wasn't addressing the underlying problem at all (which for AP is fear of abandonment compounded by low self esteem in relation to those people you're AP with). It just masked the problem better to whoever I was hoping would text me. I eventually worked through it as part of the process of earning secure and addressing my AP nervous system triggers. But since that's time consuming to recondition, in the meantime, the upsetting response the OP is having is because it's a new relationship and not yet on stable ground. She's afraid if she tells him how she feels, he'll tell her something she doesn't want to hear or he'll leave. But not talking to him about it is making her want to end it instead because she doesn't want a new relationship that potentially won't meet her texting needs and will trigger her. Before she makes that decision, the secure thing to do is simply tell him what she needs and see what happens. Even if it doesn't go well, it's baby steps in the reconditioning process to see that it won't be the end of the world if you speak up, which will be confidence in the self and in communicating honestly with others. So it's a positive step forward no matter the outcome. Huh. So the fear is of being abandoned for having a need? Like literally, fearing that the other person would say forget this, you're just too much? My avoidant female friend and I have been talking about her lack of boundaries (she just had a shocking realization that she has none in some areas). She just dismisses things that bother her and she doesn't know why. I think for me, it has had something to do with handing over my well being to another person I couldn't trust with it, so I would just suppress or try to squash the discomfort in myself rather than bring it out and rely on someone else for a yes or no. And, I also think it kept the decision making in my court- if I didn't like it I could leave. The tendency is to weigh risks with vulnerability, for all of us. It just has different flavors and textures. We all have indirect strategies to avoid risk, to try to protect ourselves in a misguided ways. My friend thought that not reacting to verbal abuse from her ex was a boundary. It bothered her inside, but she just dismissed it externally. Thats how she drew her line. She avoids conflict, and just absorbs the fallout. My response to verbal abuse is to refuse to tolerate it- but I've lacked boundaries without realizing it in other ways. But I was able to share with her how to make a boundary and stop letting herself be a receptacle for his garbage. Learning all this is so challenging but life changing. All of the above goes for expressing needs as well- dismiss the need, even if it makes me suffer. Dismiss the suffering. Better to be silent by myself than try to trust enough to being another into the solution. I'll go away if I can't handle it. It's safer to do this all alone, less destabilizing , more predictable, aaaaannnnndddd yeah I'm just not cut out for this. That's the way it deteriorates. It's very isolating on both ends of the spectrum with this stuff. Learning how to take good competent care of oneself in secure communication and decision making is so priceless!
|
|