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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2019 0:39:25 GMT
I think there is certainly a "profile" but levels of empathy vary, levels of particular styles vary, and MANY times the outside interpretation is mistaken, in terms of objective or intent. Often the interpretation between styles is defensive and accusatory, implying ill intent or a something that isn't there. This thread began by referencing a personality type that tends toward narcissistic (low empathy) traits. In that case we aren't talking attachment style we are talking personality type that can be manipulative with intent. Some people really do exploit emotions or bodies to get what they want, with little regard for the person they are engaged with. That's headed in the direction of PD not just attachment style. Right if you’re going to pigeonhole the behavior, then by that logic, intent is irrelevant. Exactly. If we pigeonhole the behavior, then intellectual sparring is..... what? Let's allow it to be one thing for one person, something for another- as fully illustrated by all the input on this thread. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2019 0:56:35 GMT
@janedoe I don't think we are connecting here, but I'm ok with disagreeing. I maintain my original point only to clarify what shiningstar asked. The bottom line is, less analysis of other people's behaviors and the impacts and more of one's own will ultimately lead to clarify and solutions. That means if you find someone's behavior hurtful but continue to put yourself in harms way, is their behavior more hurtful than your own, toward you? I don't think so. Responsibility vs blame could be more helpful. Interpreting ones own actions instead of trying hard to interpret someone else's
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2019 1:56:55 GMT
@janedoe I don't think we are connecting here, but I'm ok with disagreeing. I maintain my original point only to clarify what shiningstar asked. The bottom line is, less analysis of other people's behaviors and the impacts and more of one's own will ultimately lead to clarify and solutions. That means if you find someone's behavior hurtful but continue to put yourself in harms way, is their behavior more hurtful than your own, toward you? I don't think so. Responsibility vs blame could be more helpful. Interpreting ones own actions instead of trying hard to interpret someone else's I haven’t disagreed with you at all. But maybe you’re not getting my “perspective.” Haha. Omg hahahaha I read back, and realize that we were aligning. I get it. Hilarious . See, it's so true- perception, intent, who can decipher it all. 😂 |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2019 1:58:38 GMT
I was so confused because I was like "but I'm agreeing @janedoe " and then I thought. eh, we just aren't coming from the same place, NBD. I do get what you're saying though!
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Post by mrob on Dec 16, 2019 1:59:03 GMT
Can I say, these attachment pigeonholes are unbelievably consistent, though? Once you see a few flags of any colour, mix it up with some body language, more conversation. wait a bit, they’re incredibly accurate. It’s amazing. We all think we’re unique, but I believe this attachment stuff is the lens through which we interact with others. I agree until your last sentence. I have been avoidant most of my life. I decided to push past that one day and it flipped me on my ass. I never lied to anyone or led them on and I’d rather be alone the rest of my life than risk hurting someone. I have a few men in mind I avoid reaching out to when we had a nice connection but I’m afraid of hurting them because I need time to decide if I want to be with them and I know they will attach to me much sooner. I take on the responsibility for this. Because my character and integrity are the most important things to me. My attachment style and my personality are irrelevant when it comes to my character. Personality is a lot more fun and interesting but character is...it’s the rock of who a person is. I don’t mean to put myself on any kind of pedestal cause I fail like any human and continually learn lessons on how I can improve but I do think a lot of people miss out on the importance of character in how we relate and how others relate to us. Character is on a conscious level. If one is aware, they can choose to act as per their social and cultural conditioning. This stuff works behind the scenes. Before that character kicks in. |
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Post by mrob on Dec 16, 2019 2:25:56 GMT
Exactly. Everyone who knows me well knows I’m an objective person by nature. That’s the biggest misconception people have about themselves. Me, too, I might add. You’ve shared about your process over time, and seeing the change is just pure joy, for me. But everybody’s view is subjective, regardless of their distance from their feelings. Or it’s governed by social and cultural conditioning, which is also subjective. That’s why when somebody says “it is what it is”, the argument is closed. Nothing can get through that impenetrable barrier. Where their truth is the truth and that’s it. The drawbridge is up. |
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Post by mrob on Dec 16, 2019 2:30:38 GMT
Character is on a conscious level. If one is aware, they can choose to act as per their social and cultural conditioning. This stuff works behind the scenes. Before that character kicks in. I’ll have to think more about this. My point is though that it has an impact, for instance, you can just deny and place blame on someone else for your (subconscious) actions if you don’t have strong character, but maybe you start to recognize patterns and try to own up to them. Just off the top of my head. But character is not irrelevant in how we treat others even mixed in with attachment issues. To be clear, I’m not saying you don’t have character if you’re succumbing to subconscious behavior that you can’t even decipher. But I think recognizing a level of responsibility in it comes into play. It has an impact on the outside, yes. But here, I think we talk about the inside, the motivation behind the behaviour, as well as the behaviour itself. My responsibility is to acknowledge where I am and try to change. My results are mixed, and that’s something I have to shoulder. |
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Post by mrob on Dec 16, 2019 2:35:51 GMT
@janedoe I don't think we are connecting here, but I'm ok with disagreeing. I maintain my original point only to clarify what shiningstar asked. The bottom line is, less analysis of other people's behaviors and the impacts and more of one's own will ultimately lead to clarify and solutions. That means if you find someone's behavior hurtful but continue to put yourself in harms way, is their behavior more hurtful than your own, toward you? I don't think so. Responsibility vs blame could be more helpful. Interpreting ones own actions instead of trying hard to interpret someone else's Yes. Remember though, that’s easy for someone not anxiously preoccupied to come up with and act on. And everyone comes here with varying levels of awareness. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2019 2:36:47 GMT
Exactly. Everyone who knows me well knows I’m an objective person by nature. That’s the biggest misconception people have about themselves. Me, too, I might add. You’ve shared about your process over time, and seeing the change is just pure joy, for me. But everybody’s view is subjective, regardless of their distance from their feelings. Or it’s governed by social and cultural conditioning, which is also subjective. That’s why when somebody says “it is what it is”, the argument is closed. Nothing can get through that impenetrable barrier. Where their truth is the truth and that’s it. The drawbridge is up. Hmmmm, I never ever interpreted that saying that way- that it was endorsing a subjective truth. In fact, I always took it to mean that the reality is what it is no matter what anyone subjectively thinks of it or defines it as.... It is what It is and how we all feel about it can vary- the fact remains that (he is dying of cancer, the relationship ended, the gas can leaked all over the garage and we don't have enough info to "assign fault", the blizzard makes it impossible to make the trip.... whatever it is) and there is no point in arguing subjective view points, what shall we do now? To me it's a dismissal of all opinions including mine, or the speakers, so that next steps can be taken. Maybe it's a cultural difference in colloquialisms. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2019 2:41:56 GMT
@janedoe I don't think we are connecting here, but I'm ok with disagreeing. I maintain my original point only to clarify what shiningstar asked. The bottom line is, less analysis of other people's behaviors and the impacts and more of one's own will ultimately lead to clarify and solutions. That means if you find someone's behavior hurtful but continue to put yourself in harms way, is their behavior more hurtful than your own, toward you? I don't think so. Responsibility vs blame could be more helpful. Interpreting ones own actions instead of trying hard to interpret someone else's Yes. Remember though, that’s easy for someone not anxiously preoccupied to come up with and act on. And everyone comes here with varying levels of awareness. Whether anyone does it or not, I don't have a judgement for. All I am saying is, it's an effective way to live, and I like how Dr. Les talks about that in his videos- the idea of being who you are and living according to your values. If an AP is interpreting other's actions as deliberately rejecting or harmful to them, then that is where they are at. But it doesn't make it true. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2019 2:47:26 GMT
Also mrob I have had to travel a journey of finding awareness and empowering myself also, being in harm's way and having to remove myself from it. I'm speaking from my own hard earned experience there. Being DA doesn't mean that my particular lack of awareness hasn't had me in situations that I couldn't seem to pull out of. Shutting down eliminates options, its only self protective to a point. At some point it becomes a kind of immobilization , when to mobilize would be the best and safest thing. Distancing from a threat (emotional abuse, or toxic dynamics) emotionally but staying with it physically can be very detrimental, and the only person that can move an immobilized DA is.... the DA. I know too many DA that have been victimized by aggressors because they retreated and pulled in instead of getting the hell out to safety. It happens. You just don't hear about it on these boards. This board doesn't have a big DA population to share. I know why. But I still find it useful for me personally. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2019 3:06:39 GMT
That’s the biggest misconception people have about themselves. Me, too, I might add. You’ve shared about your process over time, and seeing the change is just pure joy, for me. But everybody’s view is subjective, regardless of their distance from their feelings. Or it’s governed by social and cultural conditioning, which is also subjective. That’s why when somebody says “it is what it is”, the argument is closed. Nothing can get through that impenetrable barrier. Where their truth is the truth and that’s it. The drawbridge is up. I am objective enough to say that you have a point. When I say I am objective, I mean more so than subjective. I would never claim 100% and I don't think anyone can have that level of objectivity. But not everything has its own truth and some things are objectively true (i.e. math 2+2 = 4) no matter how much you desire for that math to add up differently. In a way, you contradict yourself by claiming an objective truth (no one can be objective) and saying my truth ("I am objective") is not true. Just sayin! Ironically, the FA I dated had this same view you do and we debated over this. I have many subjective friends. They are wonderfully supportive when I have emotional issues, but when I need someone to tell me what I am doing wrong so I can improve, I find they have struggles doing so. I then go to my objective friends who easily will point these things out. The ones who are subjective seem to struggle to understand that people can be objective. Scientists, mathematicians etc tend to have this kind of thinking and personality and then they struggle with seeing the variables in poetry, for instance and how you can interpret things according to your own perspective. For clarity, I tend to separate objectivity/subjectivity from black and white thinking. I actually tend to think in gray (more so than black and white) because I do think perspectives can play a lot into the world. However, my objectivity is irrelevant to how I feel about a matter. I sometimes feel differently than I think, and I can separate the two a lot of the time. @janedoe I can so relate to what you said about objective friends who can help you see what you are missing. As a DA here on the forum I have run into a lot of static about my input- however my friends and I communicate with each other in a more analytical and objective way, without being triggered by each other. I think it impacts the anxious posters more, because of a connection to shame and self blame that gets activated unintentionally. Again, perspective is subjective. I find objective information when I'm in a bind to be helpful. |
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Post by mrob on Dec 16, 2019 3:11:00 GMT
I have very little faith in “my truth”. It’s got me into some awful scrapes. I’ve had to be put back together from a mess, so I tend to check things with people these days.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2019 3:22:11 GMT
Right, it can be good to get the feedback, and it can reasonably be expected if you ask a question on an internet forum. The thing of asking for feedback and crying foul when it's not what one wanted or expected to hear is pretty pervasive here. But anyway- yes I totally get where you're coming from with all that.
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