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Post by emkaye on Sept 5, 2017 17:35:13 GMT
Hi Curious, I'm glad you find my perspective helpful, and I certainly take no offence at anything that is written here by you, or anyone else. (I belong to other Psych-related forums as well, since I self-identify as having narcissistic tendencies as well, having come from a family full of people with them. So you have to be fairly thick-skinned to weather some of the posts on forums like that. Jeb's forums are like a peaceful haven, compared to some of the posts elsewhere). :-) The real "silver lining" of having dealt with Avoidants is that it opens us up to self-reflection, on why we were drawn to them in the first place, and why were tolerated less-then-ideal relationships at all, much less for years in some cases. In my case, my upbringing around a bunch of narcissists taught me to accept crumbs of attention and always seek validation from others. The later-life brush with the Avoidant (that I have now broken up with) allowed me to explore some of those early messages and try to overcome them. It's not easy, but it's important work. Once you have healed from the wounds of your relationship, you might open yourself up to similar self-examination. Yes so true... I have learned a lot from this relationship. Ironically, my ex told me that he learned from me as well and even went to therapy on my advice (which shocked me). Of course, the therapist's suggestion was to split with me. I would classify myself as anxious and I know I had my moments (I would overreact and leave him some pretty scathing voicemails). I came to realize that this behaviour was totally unacceptable and mirrowed the way my own fearful-avoidant father treated me. Fortunately, I've realized this truth and am learning to put an end to it. Not so easy, but relationships that challenge us can only make us stronger. So while I mourn the loss of my last one, I am encouraged for the future, knowing how to recognize these flaws in myself and others. Hopefully the next one will be a success! |
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jenga
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Post by jenga on Sept 6, 2017 4:26:01 GMT
Here we go...I am thinking my ex is an FA with very strong DA tendencies (he is only 24 so maybe that has something to do with the mix?)
1. Wouldn't see or speak to his close/best friends for months at a time (and lives 5-15 minutes away from them...)
2. Made several plans for fun date nights and promising plans for a great future but would never follow through...In others words, always knew exactly what to say, but when it came to his actions I was always disappointed and grew to have very minimal expectations of him
3. Said verbatim-- "relationships should be no work, low expectations, no pressure, and just fun...Key word no pressure"
4. There would be days we hung out with no kissing and very minimal touching
5. Heavy drug usage on a normal basis when he is alone... MDMA/molly, Cocaine, Benzos, painkillers (not addicted, but definitely normal usage)
6. Very distant relationship with his sister and they live in the same city
7. ALWAYS said he hated conflict and avoided it at all costs
8. Hung out 1-2 times a week/every other week (when I brought this up he didn't understand where I was coming from and avidly told me he was trying as hard as he could...)
9. Heavily invested in hobbies
10. Consistently stays up until 7 in the morning and sleeps until 9 at night
11. When I had brought up that our relationship consisted of talking minimally throughout the day and barely seeing each other, he referred to anything beyond that as a codependent relationship
12. He completely controlled when we hung out, and when I would try to make plans he would tip toe around answering
13. Near the end of our relationship, he grew hostile and passive aggressive (he was a completely different person...)
14. When we had sex, I felt like he was going through the motions and only doing so because that's what you were supposed to do in a relationship
15. From the very beginning, he had told me that he wanted to take things really, really slow because he had felt his past relationships failed due to taking things too quickly... yet within the first two months of dating he wanted to fly me home to meet his family and childhood friends
16. Constantly told me that labeling a relationship was a huge deal and that it's really hard to put himself out there
17. Always told me that I knew him best, but I had felt like I could never really get close to him...
18. Never took responsibility for his faults in our relationship and always turned it around on me. He was NEVER wrong.
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Post by howpredictable on Sept 6, 2017 12:58:57 GMT
Jenga,
My Ex had the same habits and said virtually every one of these things you describe. Except he's in his mid-50s. So I dated a version of the same guy as you, just 30 years later. Be glad you are no longer seeing him, because they do not change.
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Post by satori on Sept 6, 2017 15:32:28 GMT
I ended a six and half year relationship with a DA back in mid-May. Now that I look back I can only kick myself for having put up with all this crap from her. I have never contacted her since I walked away, for good reasons… - She was married twice and had a relationship prior to meeting me, I’m sure there were others that she never talked about - Of course her ex’s were at fault for everything - She was emotionally and verbally abusive to me and her children (part of being in the inner circle) - She treated me like dirt and did not respect me - Most of the time she would walked ahead of me - Towards the tail end of our relationship, she talked badly about me in front of her mother - She controlled everything, where we went to out dinner, when I was allowed to sleep over, which friends we saw and when, what we cooked, where we went on vacations, when I was invited to family functions, etc. - She hardly paid for anything - Extremely jealous but it was OK to gleam for her at other guys while we were out together - Sex was mechanical and when she was done she would push me away and turn over - Would not allow me to cuddle with her in bed and complained that my “extremities” are too heavy - Never, ever exhibited any form of spontaneous affection - Said “I love you” maybe two to three times by herself over the last six and half years - When I said “I love you” she would respond with a low tone of voice, barely audible - Never said “I miss you”, ever - She never talked about her feelings - Sometimes she would just exclude me or not tell me what she did or where she went - Did not respect boundaries (i.e. – would curse in front of my kids, despite me asking her over and over again not curse in front of my children) - Extremely defensive, if you said something wrong she would get incredibly angry - Every time she would blow up she would rage and then changed her demeanor and pretended it did not happen - During an argument she would tell me that she is “putting our relationship on hold so that I can take time out and think about my actions…” - Punished me with silent treatment - Would withdraw completely and would not contact me, I’m the one that always contacted her, until the end I just walked away and never contacted her again (she still has not reached out to me) - Only apologized two to three times over the last six and half years - Would send me lots of selfies, especially when I was on business trips or on vacation with my kids - She criticized everyone, including her friends, which none of them were really close to her - Riddled with insecurities - Would eat ibuprofen like it was candy - Had a love affair with her vacuum cleaner, she would constantly vacuum every day and once admitted that it gave her control None the less, she is out of my life for good.  |
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jenga
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Post by jenga on Sept 6, 2017 16:25:46 GMT
Jenga, My Ex had the same habits and said virtually every one of these things you describe. Except he's in his mid-50s. So I dated a version of the same guy as you, just 30 years later. Be glad you are no longer seeing him, because they do not change.
This forum and the discovery of attachment styles has made moving on much, much easier. I am a highly independent, securely attached person and he made me feel like I was going absolutely INSANE.
I feel sad for him because I do think he wants a relationship, but his idea of a healthy, functioning one will never truly fulfill someone. (ha ha he even told me that no healthy relationship consisted of seeing or talking everyday…). He was my first relationship and it’s as if he subconsciously hung this above my head and blamed all of my concerns on it. It’s so counterintuitive, but I have to remember that he is happy the way he is and enjoys being alone.
It’s comforting knowing that there was nothing I could have done to make us work. At the end of the day, I truly believe he cared for me and wanted us to work. But boy, am I glad to be out.
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Post by DearLover on Sept 6, 2017 19:31:36 GMT
Here's my 2 cents: 1. Dog-fetish (that was a previous ex) He is still pining over the loss of his dog and it's closing in on a year since her passing. 2. Responds to phone calls (if at all) with texts 3. Doesn't reciprocate "I love you" 4. Wanted to be roomates after only a few months 5. Walks ahead of you 6. Pays more attention to phone than you 7. Workaholic (I can't be in a relationship because of my demanding job) 8. Avoidant mother (after an argument she didn't speak to him in 3 months and then chose to reconnect via letter) 9. A string of vague friend-girl relationships (were they friends or in a relationship?) 10. Talks about being with you in the long term but then changes mind and talks about moving across country (I thought you would be happy for me if I moved across country -- REALLY DUDE?) 11. Defensiveness during arguments (you walk away feeling like you had to compromise yet again) 12. Can't talk about his feelings or deal with yours (told me I was too emotional) Wow, just made me remember that my DAex didn't speak to his mother for 2 years or so...and they lived in the same city...Apparently she tried calling, texting, emails and he totally went silent on her...How could I have ignored this huge red flag? Oh yes, the 'poor me' I had an awful childhood excuse (I know it isn't really an excuse but if you are not willing to work and heal and forgive than it is reduced to victim mentality only) What is it with walking ahead?? Mine didn't only do it on the 1st date which I found very peculiar but he also mentioned many times that he wanted to be in relationship similar to those religious people when the man walks ahead of the woman ALWAYS. He pretended he was joking, although that joke was getting old...Now I am wondering if t was really a joke and what is the reasoning for the walking ahead trend... I am thinking now that almost everything he joked about was a red flag. |
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Post by satori on Sept 6, 2017 19:58:57 GMT
Jenga,
You've said it so beautifully. I too sense that my DA wants to be in a relationship but her interpretation of what it means to be in a relationship and what it truly requires will never meet the expectation of someone who is emotionally healthy and has a secure attachment style. Now that I have learned about attachment styles understand her behavior better, I too realize that there is nothing that I could have done. I gave it my all. I wish her well in all she does but I'm much happier now that I moved on with my live.
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Post by serene13 on Sept 6, 2017 20:20:42 GMT
Things about the DA/FA I know/knew.... Becomes quickly very attentive and touchy feely in an unnatural way and amount of time tries to maintain eye contact refers to themselves as a machine or artificial intelligence says they are never unhappy - not a bad day ever never been in love, never felt loss after a event they cannot handle - long term disappearance and then abrupt personality change believes they have no self control - must control themselves regarding substances and sex will try to devalue but in a very controlled and unemotional manner works in a technical field - workaholic with very long hours I'm sure there's more but that's enough for now  |
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Post by gaynxious on Sept 7, 2017 3:11:02 GMT
Many of the tell tale signs were there that I wouldn't have realized were avoidant.
Workaholic
No friends
An admitted inability to ascribe language to emotions
No connection to his family
Always wanting to watch porn during sex
But without knowing attachment theory I don't know that I could have known any of these would affect a romantic relationship. At some level I liked them, no friends meant more time for me, no connection to family meant it would be easy for us to spend holidays with my family rather than his. Workaholic bothered me but it meant he was likely to be successful and he didn't have any experiences that made me jealous I couldn't be a part of.
The signs that did tell me something wasn't right.
No questions about anything of significance about me
No positive expressions of complex feelings beyond I love you
Telling me not to stare at him
Telling me not to follow him when we went on errands together
He once said he was afraid I would think he was broken
I'm sure there are others I am missing
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jenga
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Post by jenga on Sept 7, 2017 3:32:27 GMT
Satori,
It is a good feeling to finally see the light at the end of the tunnel and realize that this sort of relationship could never be worth the ups and downs and constant readjustment of expectations. It has been tough to come to terms with his behavior and concepts/expectations of a relationship because it is so different. I am trying to educate myself as much as possible to try and understand his thought process. Even after we broke up he had reached out and said he wanted to see me, would talk about the good times we had, and even mentioned dating again and "doing things right this time". When I suggested that we hang out or do something casual he FREAKED out and said he felt pressure.... It's the strangest thing...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2017 18:31:48 GMT
- Short period of intense expressions of admiration, desire for commitment & excitement early on, shortly followed by total reversal into appearance of being bored and lack of affection
- Crazy ex who also happens to be the only person with whom they felt a "spark" (total phantom ex - if only they hadn't been "crazy", he/she would have been the one!)
- Difficulty saying I love you, after close to a year of dating
- Says "I don't know what love is"
- talking often about other women (co-workers, friends, etc), who were all made to look like threats to our relationship
- couldn't say "I miss you" during periods of prolonged separation
- claimed embarrassment or discomfort over normal expressions of affection and generosity
- often expressed feeling "overwhelmed" by anything and everything (normal day to day human experiences) when asked to express feelings or deal directly with emotion and intimacy
- suggestions for my clothing, hair, etc. as noted by DearLover above, and no compliments or expressions of appreciation
- withholding & hiding (sometimes valid, sometimes not) anger over something I did, and using it weeks or months late as an excuse for withdrawing or distancing
- attributing negative thoughts and assumptions about relationships generally and to friends facing normal relationship challenges, and idealizing single friends with attachment issues and low intimacy lifestyles
- despite claiming to see a future with me, continuing to speak about the future in the singular with no discussion of how I fit in, "I am going to do this...if/when I move here"
- using work as an excuse for not engaging in discussions about feelings, even happy ones
- using very small and insignificant reasons to cite lack of compatibility or disappointment in me (not knowing a certain band, or not having seen or done something they had done)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2017 18:35:39 GMT
Things about the DA/FA I know/knew.... Becomes quickly very attentive and touchy feely in an unnatural way and amount of time tries to maintain eye contact refers to themselves as a machine or artificial intelligence says they are never unhappy - not a bad day ever never been in love, never felt loss after a event they cannot handle - long term disappearance and then abrupt personality change believes they have no self control - must control themselves regarding substances and sex will try to devalue but in a very controlled and unemotional manner works in a technical field - workaholic with very long hours I'm sure there's more but that's enough for now Oh, this is a bit like playing Bingo 1. Mine tried to get me into bed right away, all touchy-feely - it's his weird control-freak way of ticking off his list, investigating sight, smell, etc. ..his definition of "chemistry"...  I now realize they usually substitute physical intimacy for their lack of emotional intimacy - big red flag ! 2. He did this puzzling "Look into my eyes..." schtick like that sleazy hypnotist Kenny Craig in Little Britain. He explained stupidly that it's for "falling in love"...ok, so he read somewhere that you can make someone fall in love with you with eye contact for 5 continuous minutes.  He might be a successful businessman but he is so bizarrely "mechanical", as if he has a "Love Manual" to follow trying to "hook chicks". Haha...so he reads The Guardian:  “A lover’s eyes will gaze an eagle blind.”  www.theguardian.com/intimacy-secrets-for-all/2017/jun/01/can-eye-contact-make-you-fall-in-love3. Workaholic - check! Always on the run from one city to another. 4. Suggestion of clothing choices - check! He hinted that his sister shops at this particular boutique that is classy but inexpensive....is he thinking my taste is too expensive or not classy??!! We've both gone NC for 3 weeks now, weirdly, I find myself missing him. He is incredibly clumsy in his love attempts, it's a little endearing. Thank you for the stories of prolonged years of agony for steeling my resolve anew.  |
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Post by jaleesa on Sept 7, 2017 23:14:29 GMT
Has anyone ever noticed the parasitic "what’s yours is mine but what's mine is not yours" mindset?
I think this tends to be narcissistic, but I just remembered this yesterday.
Bought a new pillow because my neck hurt and he claimed it within a week. Bought a new laptop for work and even though he had one himself, within a week he used mine. When he dropped his phone and broke its screen, he used my phone for months instead of buying a new one. He borrowed my car without asking and without filling the tank. Etc.
He never bought things for himself. Instead he waited for me to buy things and then he just claimed it as his property when he found it useful. But when I needed anything from him, he became cranky or even angry.
This is a huge red flag for me now.
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Post by osemka8 on Sept 10, 2017 19:23:53 GMT
My turn. Been with a FA female for only about a month before sh*t hit the fan. Here is what was from the start:
- has never been in a serious relationship or close to being in love at 23
- when I first texted her, she didn't even say "Hi". Same for the second time which bothered me
- said she doesn't know how to act in a relationship
- does not pursue and is always the one being hunted
- does not know how to express emotions
- had anorexia nervosa and "overcame it" without therapy
- never told me she has any long term friends, but she does have friends and hangs out often
- told me her best friend is finally out of hospital. That "best friend" hasn't spoken to her in 6 months while staying there. A little apology and all was good
- changes stories (like: "I was hopeless cause I couldn't find the right partner and I'm single for so long" to "I didn't have time to think about a potential relationship cause I always keep myself so occupied")
- often told me how she can keep herself busy (and I always told her that is not an excuse for anything cause I still find time for everything and am even busier)
- interpreted long texts as my expression of love towards her and was petrified about it, when those texts were just ordinary ones and my expression of mind
- in the beginning every time she felt we were getting exclusive, she took her time from contacting me and then said she got scared/confused
- her efforts of opening up through texts were just clumsy. Those were not even emotions she was expressing
- did not initiate calls
- makes extra pressure on every potentially harmful situation and overthinks it to the point she gets scared
- has low self-esteem and image
- allows others to boss her around
- when I had to leave for 2 months she got severely scared
- does not start opening up until the other one does things for her so she can see he values her deeply
- wanted to take things slow
- never complimented
- does not express emotions and from my point of view it sometimes felt robotic when around her. As if she didn't want anything romantic
- has abnormaly high standards but she cannot offer that much back
- when I met all those standards of being "the one", she got scared and backed off
- said she misses me over the phone with an awkward tone (fear)
- few days later "it" happened. Told me she has a hard time cause of her sister is coming back home, her friend is out of hospital and she is finishing schoool and does not have "time or will" for the relationship at this moment (when SHE first expressed the desire of being exclusive). I mean those... excuses...
- at one point just said she stopped thinking about me. Nothing, nada. From all to nothing over night
- said (and I kid you not) she doesn't see the point in trying to work on something she might want or benefit from in the future
- anxious eyes at our last meet-up, couldn't keep eye contact
- told me she was falling in love and later said I'm just not the one (yeah, that actually happened)
- denied her own feelings and intuition at the end although she knew something was wrong with her and I tried to help her understand. Would have more luck talking to a squirrel nerby
- said feelings just change like that and she doesn't like me anymore
- told me it will be better in her next relationship (boy was she petrified when telling me this at the end)
- when trying to open her up she looked as if she rather had a knife straight through her heart. Her true self was revealed to me...
And I'm sure I've missed some along the way. I think it's hard to find a more clear avoidant, right? Poor girl has some inner trouble, is not adressing them and just thinks it will go away. Still it's horrible cause we were both falling in love and I got attached so I had to heal. This was such an unpleasant experience but still nothing compared to the borderline relationship I had.
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Post by DearLover on Sept 10, 2017 20:10:07 GMT
I keep checking the boxes here. Lets keep it going, I don't ever want to date an Avoidant again. Would rather be alone.
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I now realize they usually substitute physical intimacy for their lack of emotional intimacy - big red flag !
He might be a successful businessman but he is so bizarrely "mechanical", as if he has a "Love Manual" to follow trying to "hook chicks".
“A lover’s eyes will gaze an eagle blind.” 
