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Post by doctora on Dec 22, 2020 22:47:20 GMT
Just like you need him to understand you a certain way (control the narrative), to validate you. he needs you to minsunderstand him in a certain way so he can project onto you (control the narrative), to also validate him. My guess is if you both actually went to therapy seriously and without “couples” therapy, but just serious therapy to deal with the traumas of your upbringing, you probably wouldn’t even be interested in one another. I feel you’re completely triggered right now and I hope you can burn that letter and never speak to him or anybody from his family again (and attention seek). I would explore in therapy what issues I was trying to fix but trying to change this guy. And trying to change his narrative to finally acknowledge me. Once you’re on your way to personal growth through serious therapy, you simply won’t need any of this. You’re in the throws of codependency now, but there is a way out. In addition to your individual therapy; I recommend joining a CoDA meeting. I completely agree with the first thing you said, and one of the reasons why I am itching to have the last word and thus over-explain is because I see right through his avoidant tactics now, I don’t misunderstand him, and I don’t blame myself even if he blames me, and I don’t want to let him get away with demonizing me. In a way it’s kind of like a “F you... you can walk away, but FYI, you’re wrong about everything, here’s why, and bye.” I really appreciate your response and it had a lot of good stuff, and I know what you’re trying to say, but it actually feels triggering to say that the only reason why I’m with this guy or we were interested in eachother was bc of the toxic dynamic. That’s like saying, “hey, everything you perceived is wrong because you’re such a mess.” I don’t expect you to have read the whole backstory or thread, but that’s not the case. I knew him since I was younger, we lived together for two years in Europe and had tons of adventures, had a home together, hosted friends and family. We share humor, hobbies, music tastes, friends, interests, goals,....it’s not all about our AP/DA dynamic, which actually, I think is why he has kept coming back. And that’s not a stretch....that happens in some cases of extreme cycling. It’s not ALL pathology, some if it can be real connection and even love. But...I’m not romanticizing it at the expense of reality. I’m strong enough now to hold space for both truths, that this could have been better if he showed up and got more secure, BUT he refused to do his part and has pulled an avoidant move again. It’s ok. I don’t think acknowledging the strengths of the relationship is giving me toxic hope anymore or means I don’t see just how bad it is. I am triggered for sure. However, I think any AP earned secure that got their hopes up for pretty good reasons would relapse a tad ...whether it’s codependency or just post-breakup processing. I feel duped. For months he was showing up...He had contacted me this time after he read a book on avoidance. It wasn’t all talk with no action. He was paying for therapy. He was motivated. He was looking for an individual therapist. Maybe he couldn’t do the work after all, but I wasn’t imagining anything, he was really trying for a while. I would have never agreed had I knew this would happen. Its not as much I feel responsible for him making understand things....I am more ANGRY that he could willfully distort his view of me in his head to make walking away easier. But I know if I deliver my rebuttal aggressively, like “what you’re doing is avoidant, you’re being idiot, I’m not a mind reader, you never speak up like a normal functional boyfriend, your behavior is predictable” that will fuel the fire. In fact thats kind of what I did during the break up session. I called him the R-word a lot and was being extremely sassy. I just kind of want the last word. I dunno if that’s codependent or self-validating, or both. Either way, I’m not sending the letter....yet. But I’m not burning it. I think anything I send is ok as long as I am genuinely doing it to feel peace, not to reengage with him. But yeah, I likely won’t send it. I’m not attention seeking from his sister.. His sister and I have been in contact since 2009, I’ve helped her get out of abusive relationships, I’ve looked out for her for years, and often we don’t talk about her brother at all. She’s been a surprising source of support through his bad behavior. She called me yesterday after I “broke up with her” over text, she was so supportive, she said his behavior has been disgusting towards me and it’s not my fault, and that love isn’t enough, the bottom line is he isn’t committing how I need him to, he isn’t respecting my needs, and that I deserve the best....she has been an ally through this. Surprisingly she and his mother have been really supportive. They know he’s crazy difficult. Either way; we ended things on a good note. I will check out CoDA- I think I had some codependency issues with my parents and certainly that has to do with being AP, as AP partner has trouble with taking on more than their fair share of responsibility, so thank you for the suggestion. And I’ve been in serious therapy. I will soon not be needing any of this, I feel myself relaxing. I’m processing this fast and the forum is helping for sure. I think I needed to take it to this point to really let go...we had ALL the resources in the world and I was behaving securely and he still didn’t follow through. I know it’s not me. I’ll get over this quickly. |
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alice
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Post by alice on Dec 22, 2020 23:09:58 GMT
but, man, why do I have such an urge to explain myself? I really hate being in the place you are in. I'm sorry you are there. Regarding the above, it is because you are attracted/attached to him and so you care what he thinks. You want to resolve this. You think YOU are resolving it by sending the letter and apologizing, but in reality, it is a bid, an invitation for him to resolve your emotional discord right now. And he may not be able to spell that out, but he will feel the demand of that. The problem is, because of his attachment issues, he will always look for / find a way to think something bad about you to avoid his own issues. You can't fix it. Only he can. It REALLY sucks. But the thing is, though you may not be perfect, he has his own issues he needs to work on. It's not your job to fix him and how he views you is a result of his own issues. Instead of focusing on how my attachment figure saw me, I had bits of perspective where I saw a future where I would be free of these chains of needing the other person to resolve how badly they made me feel by abandoning me. Free, because *I* was able to find other things that gave me meaning, other people who valued me who I didn't have to convince so hard to value me, and do things to improve myself. And when I got there (and it's always a journey I'm on), I was so proud of myself for NOT sending that last letter, for holding out, for NOT apologizing just to retain a connection with someone who was not treating me well. It's so sad that we apologize just to retain a connection. Also, he may actually see you in a more positive light if you leave him be and stick to your firm boundaries. He knows he has issues and he knows he is unreasonably blaming you. He may respect you more if you take care of yourself. |
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Post by doctora on Dec 24, 2020 6:19:05 GMT
I sent this letter, below and I feel really good about it. First of all I changed it and made it abundantly clear that this isn’t to reconnect. No unfinished business, said my peace, I feel like I made the right decision, and can really start focusing on myself. I had agreed to the therapy process to begin with because I felt I’d be heard and seen no matter what the outcome was, even if it wasn’t going to work out. That’s important to me because that feeling of being misunderstood still has control over me - I’ll work on it, maybe when I’m more secure it’ll be easier for me to be like, “they misunderstood me, they don’t see me, they don’t wanna understand me...not my problem.” But for now, feeling accused and misunderstood does trigger me to explain myself, and it may even be a messed up tactic he uses unconsciously to keep me hooked, in a way. The break up was so abrupt that all I could do in the moment was try to stay as calm as possible while telling him what an avoidant idiot he was being. That’s not ME me, that’s me reacting to threat, or being provoked because I’m getting blamed for all sorts of nonsense. These two letters are my truth and I don’t feel that violates the boundary I set for him not to contact me ever again, unless he is determined to do all the work and is not going to leave. And I can’t unsend it so let’s plz focus on the positive so I don’t tailspin into self doubt  . I’m half kidding. But I do feel ready to do a deep dive into my own attachment work, I’ve signed up for the school of personal developments courses and I’m putting aside time to journal everyday. I want to thank everyone who responded here - you helped TREMENDOUSLY. Feeling not alone in this has been healing in and of itself. So 🙏 thank you. Dear (DA ex), If you don’t mind I have a few more things to add before leaving it alone. This doesn’t negate my first letter at all, I’m thinking of it as an addendum. This is not to reengage in any discussion or contact, everything I said in my first letter applies, but I felt I wanted to share a few more things. I can’t be sure, but I sense when you leave it’s because you feel like I have crossed your boundaries, and instead of communicating where and what they are, or double checking any assumptions, you get so disgusted that you switch off and leave altogether. A goal of therapy was to feel safe and get better at recognizing and expressing boundaries and needs and feelings. Everyone has different ones, and no one is mind reader, not even me. For example, when you told me that when I try to get you to open up when you are distancing that it feels intrusive, it blew my mind. Id always believed that was caring and nice, trying to get you to open up and find out and understand what was making you upset, and it never once occurred to me that you hated it and felt like I was prodding you and not respecting privacy. I can only guess therefore that when I said “I care about what’s in your mind” about the IUD thing, you may have felt it was intrusive and disrespectful as well, since thoughts are supposed to be private. I am pretty sure that was not interpreted the way I meant it, but we never discussed it, so that’s not surprising. I feel like when you’re triggered you can jump to the worst conclusions possible about what I say or do, and I end up feeling accused and misunderstood, which hurts. Again, with the IUD, I think I understand how you may have felt criticized, like I was concerning myself with your professional life and your private thoughts, or didn’t believe in your goals, but for me it was way more about me and my feelings and experiences than anything having to do with you. Maybe I said it wrong, or maybe you jumped to conclusions, or both. Either way, when you shut off, distance or leave, you prevent any clarification or resolution. I now believe healthy relationships grow through rupture and repair, not never crossing each others boundaries. In my opinion, if there’s no room for error and conflict, then there’s no chance for harmony, either. The only way your boundaries never get crossed and feelings never get hurt is if you aren’t that close with the person. This applies for everything - but it’s easier to get away with in friendships and at work, even family if that’s the MO. I heard you at the last session, that you felt blamed and criticized. I wanted to explain that when I point out any avoidant attachment stuff, it is not to shame you or make you feel bad, or to blame, and it’s not meant to invalidate how you feel, either. In my mind it’s to make you aware of what I think you’re doing, like I wish you’d make me aware when I upset you in real time instead of walking away. I also have been doing lots of work on my own attachment insecurity and will continue. In my mind I was acting on the same team, not against you. I am sorry that I made a big deal about the 50/50 blame thing - I think I really meant investment, not blame - it was not a 50/50 investment, which you admitted and apologized for, which was appreciated. But blame - rather, responsibility - for actual interactions, I gladly take my half of it, and I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear. And I saw you were investing this time and putting in effort and I was feeling really good about that. I meant everything I said in the first letter, and I know if you can’t or don’t want to do this work with me it has nothing to do with me. My issues are mine and yours are yours. And I know, from my own personal experience, that identifying your own needs and boundaries and feelings can be really, really hard to do, and even harder to understand and articulate to another person. But that’s 100% something that no one can do for another person. That’s totally the work and decision of the individual. I intend to do more work on myself and become more secure for my own life. Maybe, eventually, we can be friends. This doesn’t negate the first letter, its just an addendum I felt the need to write after thinking and feeling a bit. I wanted you to know that just because I talked about attachment, and just because I inadvertently hurt your feelings or crossed your boundaries, doesn’t mean I think your feelings and boundaries are not every bit as important as mine. I care and always have cared about them, even if I didn’t fully understand them or what to do with them. Again, everything I said in the first letter applies, and I do not expect response, nor is this an attempt to re-engage in a discussion. I just didn’t feel right not clarifying. I hope you didn’t mind. -A |
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Post by doctora on Dec 24, 2020 7:57:08 GMT
I think something weird is happening. I read back to some of my old posts from 10 months ago, and I realized....I’m done. I’m just, totally done with putting any more effort into this whatsoever. I feel a bit free. I don’t think this is a tragedy. I’m hesitant to say I’m completely free bc more time needs to pass and I don’t want to have some kind of relapse, but I seriously can’t imagine crying over this anymore. I feel pretty good.
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Post by annieb on Dec 24, 2020 14:11:08 GMT
I was hoping you would read your old posts:) One last advice, and I wish I had listened to this myself, as it would have saved years of heartbreak. Block and delete his contacts. No more access to this man. No more future hoping and your own future faking with him. Close that door forever and love you now. Not him. Love you. See what that feels like and enjoy!
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Post by serenity on Dec 26, 2020 21:08:21 GMT
I think something weird is happening. I read back to some of my old posts from 10 months ago, and I realized....I’m done. I’m just, totally done with putting any more effort into this whatsoever. I feel a bit free. I don’t think this is a tragedy. I’m hesitant to say I’m completely free bc more time needs to pass and I don’t want to have some kind of relapse, but I seriously can’t imagine crying over this anymore. I feel pretty good. Hey Doctora, I'm just catching up on your thread, and can relate so much to your yearning to be heard after breaking up with your partner. When I started watching Thais Gibson's video's, she said something extremely helpful that I've found to be true in my own relationships with avoidants: Avoidants can usually be reached, but it takes a few months after a breakup....even longer if they've rebounded. Sometimes their rebounds last; usually they don't because they haven't worked on themselves. Sometimes they don't happen at all. But rebounds aside, its important to realise that anything you write before at least 6-8 weeks have passed will either not be read at all, or will be dismissed. Thats because the early weeks/months after a breakup are very freeing for an avoidant. Their nervous system finally feels relieved and calmer, their triggers are not being set off. They may actually feel elated. This really sucks if you are (effectively) the anxiously attached partner. We typically feel the most pain and grief right after the breakup, the worst of it in the first month. We feel the most need to be heard, reassured, to connect, to resolve things during this time. You've just endured the worst of your breakup grief, and his has not even started yet. You could keep this cycle going indefinitely by enduring your grief in cycles, waiting for his own grief to be triggered, approaching him then. But you have to ask yourself, is that what you really want or need? Think about this carefully in coming weeks and months. This dance won't end until you decide it has to end, and block him. Not out of hate or anger, but because he is unable to form a healthy relationship with you. |
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Post by doctora on Dec 27, 2020 0:18:55 GMT
Thanks serenity annieb. The serenity prayer says grant me the wisdom to know the difference between what I can and cannot control. What I could control, I did my best...and even if it was partially driven by anxious attachment to him, I think most of it was driven by secure love and hope based on stuff I had read about attachment. I know I was acting out of health, if that makes sense. I don’t expect my ex to ever think about me or regret anything. If he does ever look back, however, I am satisfied with what is left behind for him to contemplate...He had a good opportunity to become more secure with someone who loved him and whom he loved (whatever the F that means). I think the fairly undeniable reason he didn’t was because he’s just too avoidant, and I can’t see any way he could convince himself otherwise if he’s being honest with himself. I mean, after the dust settles, why did we break up? It wasn’t cheating, It wasn’t dishonesty, it wasn’t lack of common interests or goals, it wasn’t because of a lack of connection, it wasn’t because therapy wasn’t working (therapist said so herself), and it wasn’t even because of fighting or arguments (because he never actually stayed and fought/argued)! We both wanted the same things out of life, and he broke up with me over something relatively minor. And even if it wasn’t minor to him, he refused to discuss it or resolve it, and if he had I’m not sure it would’ve been such a dealbreaker. It’s crazy. I am glad I sent the 2nd letter...I was more secure this time around, but that also meant I didn’t blame myself disproportionately for stuff like I had in the past. I wanted to make sure that I wasn’t overcompensating by not taking responsibility for basic relationship stuff, even if it’s small. Like yeah, he’s avoidant, but ultimately this was all about each other’s feelings, and I didn’t mean to come off as dismissing all of his feelings just because he is avoidant. If that makes sense. I can see how he could have felt criticized and blamed. But I explained myself well and can be done with it. I haven’t had an issue of compulsively reaching out or texting or calling him after a breakup for several years now. Actually, that might be one of the factors why he may not realize I’m gone until I’m truly long gone, because I’ve even gone for a whole year before reaching out. He may not get those, “whoa is she actually gone?” thoughts for a few years. But, Regardless, serenity, I agree with you 10000%. I refuse to have an unhealthy situation with anyone, including him. That’s the bottom line. As far as my own healing goes, I spent a lot of time on these forms the past week or two and it has helped me. I started the re-programming stuff on the school of personal development, and I think it will be good for me to finish. The truth is that I’m mostly sad and worried about the whole family planning aspect of this. I wasn’t expecting to have kids with him immediately, I was hoping that would be in therapy for a year, maybe reach some stability, and be able to take it from there. But now it’s dawning on me that I’m actually 33 years old. My mom is 75, dad 77. I have a couple male friends whom I’ve seriously spoken to about sperm donation should it come to that. They’ve agreed, but it’s not guaranteed that they won’t get girlfriends. I just feel a little bad for myself. It’s hard not to fall into the I really didn’t deserve this self pity party. I actually wanted to be a younger mom in theory bc my parents are older. It’s hard for me not to feel extremely angry at my ex for not getting his shit together, and not getting his shit together for such a long time. He was a doctor for heavens sake, he even had no issue with moving my mom in close by or having a multi family home so I could take care of her while I had young kids. Maybe it’s becoming clearer why this was such a roller coaster of hope. He dangled THE carrot in front of my face. I don’t really know how to feel empowered in these circumstances regarding the family planning. I may have no choice but to freeze my eggs, and that costs $10,000 for the first half (another 10 if you actually need to use them). I also so badly wanted to raise kids in a more traditional situation. I’ll be a single mom if I have to but I really don’t want to. Some days I feel like I have no energy to do anything but process the break up and cry. And read the forums. Hopefully this changes. One of my shallow post break up goals that usually helps is to get in shape so maybe I’ll try to do that. |
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alice
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Post by alice on Dec 27, 2020 19:57:52 GMT
I don’t really know how to feel empowered in these circumstances regarding the family planning. I may have no choice but to freeze my eggs, and that costs $10,000 for the first half (another 10 if you actually need to use them). I also so badly wanted to raise kids in a more traditional situation. I’ll be a single mom if I have to but I really don’t want to. I think these are things that are motivating for a person to work on moving on to be healthy for the next person and avoid similar issues in the future. I look at others with healthy calm relationships and think that all of this is just not worth it. The process isn't linear. It's a daily decision you'll make. And it'll be up and down. Don't be too hard on yourself. Some promote the self love concept. I personally don't agree with this. I think it is important to find safe people to be a part of your support group (friends, family, therapist, pastor, forums, other groups, etc etc). When you have love and support from these people, I have found you'll gain bits of energy to work on yourself and move forward. |
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Post by amber on Dec 28, 2020 3:22:44 GMT
Oh I feel your pain! I’m 13 months out from a horrible painful breakup with my ex FA and it is definelty not a linear process. It’s so up and down; some days the grief has been awful and other days not so bad. Some weeks terrible and others good. I’ve turned a corner now with it (took me the better part of a year really) and have started dating other people and feeling hopeful that there’s a better match for me. I tried having contact with my ex the first six months and that just prolonged the pain. Going no contact was definetly the best way to move on and not prolong the pain. Grief has a life of its own and you will find yourself with tears at times...this is ok, let yourself feel the pain. A wise woman recently said to me that you only really learn to love when you have learned to grieve.
Once you do the inner work and your self esteem improves you will not as likely be attracted to DA or FA men. That’s what I’m finding anyway.i feel disinterested and turned off them now.such a nice place to be and you’ll get there too!
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Post by blacksnow2 on Dec 28, 2020 9:04:05 GMT
Hi doctora. I think there are no hard and fast rules about contacting an avoidant. Every case and dynamic is unique. I don't think you did anything wrong by sending that letter. There was nothing in it that suggested you tried to reel him in to change him in a manipulative way. To take it further, there is also nothing wrong with telling someone the truth about their shitty behavior or even expressing that you wish they would work on themselves. What they do afterwards is up to them.
I'm also not seeing how this is shallow at all.
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Post by doctora on Dec 28, 2020 14:48:44 GMT
blacksnow2....thanks, that’s ultimately how I feel as well. I actually I first said “get in shape and get as hot as possible” but I edited it out, that was the shallow part. But I agree, it’s not shallow at all. I need to boost my self esteem big time.
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simon
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Post by simon on Feb 9, 2021 14:09:25 GMT
I need to boost my self esteem big time. And to be honest, THIS is exactly why you needed to send that letter and couldn't help it. You've been gaslighted and devalued and abused for quite some time, to make yourself feel that you weren't important, weren't worth it, weren't worth fighting for, weren't worth being loved... etc. Yes, you might be strong and secure in many ways... but this is abuse and mindfucking and trauma bonding and would affect anybody on an unconscious level, no matter how much they consciously tell themselves "I am awesome" in the mirror every day. And that is a source of anger... healthy anger... anger from boundary violations and minimization and not being seen and valued on the level that you deserved. And this was the letter, to tell him off that he was wrong, and that you were right. And in reality, it was a letter to yourself, to remind you of these things. And you finally let go, because you finally accepted, that he just can't see these things. Be very careful, trying to use conscious logic and communication to change or explain or engage with unconscious behavior in another. Good luck with that. ;-) I am 100% secure, and had a 1 year relationship with a FA leaning heavy DA. I felt the same at the end after all the devaluation and gaslighting from her, a "WTF can't you see what you are doing and it is SO OBVIOUS HOW RETARDED YOU ARE YOU SELF-SABOTAGING IDIOT AND HOW DARE YOU TWIST MY WORDS AND ACTIONS AND BEHAVIORS AROUND IN SUCH A WAY TO SEE THE WORST IN EVERYHTING WHEN I WAS PRETTY AWESOME OMG YOURE INSANE."... etc. But no, I never sent a letter or shared such sentiments... just felt that way, and completely realized and accepted that she couldn't see it. Her deep shame would not allow such reality to creep into the cracks of her fragile ego and identity, for it would be too catastrophic and painful. Coping mechanisms exist for a reason in such people, to "touch" that shame can fee like death to the very soul. :-) Lol, it's just a natural defense and healthy energetic response when you finish "fawning" to the experience and your inner child grows some balls and says NO MORE and reclaims your healthy sense of identity from the narcissistic abuse. I am not saying NPD, but narcissistic abuse from the DA narcissistic traits like lack of empathy, self-centeredness, lack of accountability, victimhood, projection, stonewalling, etc etc etc. Hug your inner child, she's glad you are back. |
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Post by doctora on Feb 19, 2021 22:20:35 GMT
simon ....hey, I really appreciate what you wrote above. I saw it a few days ago and couldn't respond then but I can't tell you how much I appreciate that you get it, that you really understand why I had to send that letter. It was for me, it wasn't pathetic, it was necessary. You're strong as hell for not sending any letter to your ex DA girlfriend. You were able to validate yourself and have clarity and you recognized that she probably wouldn't get anything anyway just because you said words. I admire that a lot. How are you doing in your...process? You're exactly right. It's funny, the DA doesn't have to be a narcissist to be narcissistic. It's become popular to not demonize DAs in all this attachment relationship advice stuff, and rightly so, bc really those who end up reading that stuff theoretically could get help and get better, and it's important not to shame someone who wants help. But man, DAs that don't want to get "better" ARE abusive without intending on it. "Lack of empathy, self-centeredness, lack of accountability, victimhood, projection, stonewalling, etc etc etc." Exactly. Here's where I am at now: I am REALLY grieving the relationship now. For 9 years, this is what I truly never wanted to do, I wanted to save the relationship for-fucking-ever. But here I am. I do get the sense that even though I feel so sad, that I am somehow going through something and will come out another side. I get the whole grieving as a tunnel thing. The hardest part for me, now that I've surrendered any hope for influence or control of the outcome, is not being able to really understand if my ex loved me or not. I mean, everyone says that DAs (or FAs, whatever) push people away that they love. So how is this love?  If they can deactivate and literally stop LIKING someone and see the worst in someone, when the hell do they feel this "love?" Is it just like a little twang of nostalgia after a year? No thank you, that's not enough! What does that even mean? Do they get clarity when they calm down? Do they miss people a LOT or just a little? I also have moments where I felt regret about my mistakes, which I definitely made during the reconciliation, the ones he broke up with me over. I keep arriving at the same place though: had I been appropriately given a chance, I would have apologized and done a do-over. Just like every other goddamn time he broke up with me over something dumb/fixable. My mistakes didn't have to be a dealbreakers, by far. If an avoidant breaks up with you because of a "mistake" you made, has absolutely zero wiggle room or any of that for you to be anxious - especially when you are trying to reconcile with someone who has done things that have caused you to be anxious - then as far as I'm concerned, it's truly they're fault at the end of the day. Repair is more important than not making mistakes. If you walk away from a fixable problem and the other person is interested in fixing it, it's your fault and your loss. This is just a side thing, but I've noticed I get triggered when people sort of dismiss the phantom ex phenomenon as just a mechanism to stay distant in the current relationship, not because it's not true, but because I am 100% positive that I have been the phantom ex and probably will be again one day, and I believe that I SHOULD be the phantom ex, I should be the one that got away. If avoidants really walk away from people they love, then shouldn't their exes be phantom? Do you know what I mean? If he doesn't compare me to his future partners and get sad then the world makes zero sense to me. I know it sounds "unhealthy" or whatever but I'm just being honest about my feelings on this internet forum so I can let it all out. It's true. I feel like at the very goddamn least, I HOPE one day he'll be able to feel all the stuff that I've felt. I hope he does one day feel that I was probably the best match he'd ever get and he fucked it up royally, because it's true. It's cliche and I have no problem with that. It's genuine. Sometimes I think that if he didn't love me, it would make it easier, believe it or not. My ex has, since 2013, treated this relationship and me with such disregard. He didn't care about my timeline, my feelings, my needs, that what makes me really sad is that even if he came around and genuinely wanted to work on it and was ready, if he were to have a moment of reckoning, how I could trust him? I mean, for heaven's sake, he was paying for therapy, after 9 years of this off-and on and mostly off relationship, we were able to come together and say, hey, let's make it work because we love each other and want kids and a family, and we had talked about having room for error and not leaving therapy. We went to an attachment therapist. We were making moves. And I made it clear how hurtful the repeated breakups had been and how excited I was to stop having these problems and instead have new ones, and be able to finally negotiate the relationship now that we both knew what the real root issues were. And he seemed like he understood. And lo and behold, he just dumps me...AGAIN. As if nothing we talked about held any real weight...AFTER he'd apologized for not trying putting enough effort into fixing things for so many years. He did the exact. Same. Thing. I have emotional whiplash. So many times, when reading about avoidants, it's phrased like, "they are scared of receiving love" or "they want love but can't tolerate it." Ummm...what?? When you love someone you GIVE love to them, even if its done in an imperfect way, and you do it whether it's scary or not to receive it because you can't help it. You miss them when they're gone and want to talk to them and kind of always have them on a bit of a pedestal even if you are mad at them or hate them for a moment. I'm not talking about how intimacy is scary. I get it, it can be. But did my avoidant ex love me, and if so, when the fuck is he gonna feel bad already? Am I making sense? It's funny, I've been going back and reading our old correspondences, from the very beginning (2009) to most recently (2020), being a detective and trying to figure out if he loved me and if so, how much. I'm doing this because I feel the need to understand if I was just acting out of my anxious-preoccupiedness or if it was legitimate love and friendship that kept me coming back. Every AP/DA/FA relationship is unique of course, but I have trouble categorizing mine because I haven't really heard stories that are similar to mine. Don't get me wrong, other people's romance stories are totally real and valid, but when I hear about a DA/AP who dated for like, a year, or started having problems 8 months in, or DAs that wouldn't introduce their SO to their family or friends, it's like, ok, I don't see how they even had time to fall deeply, deeply in love with eachother. This is what makes it so confusing for me. I have yet to hear about a story like mine wherein there was truly just as much evidence for us being the *actual* loves of eachothers lives as there was evidence for us having your run of the mill AP/DA/FA toxic dynamic. Our relationship foundation was strong because we had a friendship before we dated and then had a real, 2 yr honeymoon period, with a long distance period we got through, and then living together. Even when we were during off periods we made each other crack up. We also have mutual friends that think we are both awesome, which is kind of a testament to how similar we are. We have the same intellectual interests sometimes. Yet, this was such a long and TOXIC on and off thing. For the past few years it was ALWAYS me reaching out to reconcile and him responding, that now that I'm dead-set on grieving this properly, I'm trying to figure out if my reaching out to him was purely based in my anxious attachment, or whether there was, for lack of a better way of putting it, real love between us. Because truly, now that I'm moving through it, I guess part of it is trying to figure out if I was acting out of love or just pathology. Or if this whole thing was me being delusional. Thanks again for everyone who responded and reads this, venting in this forum has been beyond helpful, it's been essential to my healing, and I hope I have some time tonight to read some other people's posts too and respond.
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Post by alexandra on Feb 19, 2021 22:40:42 GMT
doctora, I'm glad you're feeling like you've pushed through into actually starting a real mourning process. That's one step closer to you eventually feeling better about this and finding a better situation that meets your needs. I know you're venting, but the one thing that stands out to me in what you wrote is you're very insistent in how other people should love (and think and feel and act), and that it should be in a way that's similar to your experience. It helped me move forward, be more fair, and give other people more space to be and show me who they are (which creates stronger mutual acceptance) to deeply understand that there truly are different mindsets and perspectives and different ways and experiences in loving people. All insecure attachment types, not just avoidants, struggle with love because the attachment wounding adds so many layers to any romantic interaction. It's just as much about the insecure attacher's projections, how their nervous systems were wired earlier in life to accept and receive love both from others and in terms of having self-love, and getting self-centered when triggered into their own defense mechanisms (whether that's anxious or avoidant)... as it is about clearly seeing the other person. Because of the insecure attacher's relationship with themselves, they often can't see the other person entirely clearly without merging their identities in at least some way. Try to let go of "should," and be curious about the experience of other people. Listen to what they say they feel instead of falling into "shoulds." And if you want someone who matches your mindset and experiences and expresses love similarly, if you're looking for that in a partner, that's perfectly fine. But don't expect or impose that on someone who doesn't share your mindset from the start. Then you're pushing a square peg into a smaller round hole, and no one will be happy or comfortable being open and vulnerable, feeling safe enough to authentically express themselves.
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Post by doctora on Feb 19, 2021 22:53:12 GMT
Ugh. This one is embarassing. It's SOOOO ANXIOUS/AVOIDANT! When I read it I actually got annoyed at myself, like I've been a hen just clucking angrily at him for years, saying stuff but nothing lands. I might delete it..but I'm sharing it with you because going through old letters is helpful. These problems have been around forever. And I BLOCK THE BAD STUFF HE'S DONE OUT!!!! I guess I still am anxious-preoccupied in my brain wiring, in that I pay way more attention to positive evidence. I found this correspondence from 2015. I actually think it's kind of funny because i had no idea that he was avoidant and I was anxious. ZERO awareness that that even had a name. I first only read his part, and even felt bad because, well, I thought maybe I was being too much. But then I saw my response and I kind of felt good again because I remembered all the bullshit. My relationship is the poster child for why love just isn't enough, and also, why walking away is so much more important than being a clucking hen. Nothing I said really mattered at the end. I admit I do often wonder what would have happened by now had I literally just left him alone. I wonder how much of this was him not loving me vs. taking me for granted and misbehaving. I wonder if he would have missed me enough to get motivated to change. Because ultimately, nothing you say matters if the person doesn't want to change. NOTHING. Here is the letter from my DA explaining why he broke up with me: (Doctora), The following are only my OPINIONS. However, they are MY opinions. I think you're caught up on the wrong 'breakup reasons.' Yes, I said you were mean to your Mom, you were spoiled, bratty, etc... I'm sorry, I said all those out of anger and I don't think you've displayed a high level of any of those directly. However, hints of those factors were exhibited in your inability to be chill, go with the flow, and let things slide. Specifically, there was little wiggle room to put the relationship second to school. I couldn't see you every weekend or even every 2/3 weekends. Many times when I'd tell you I couldn't see you - you'd get mad at me and eventually I caved (or didn't). Maybe you were totally justified in trying to have a normal relationship and see each other as often as possible, but I wasn't. We had relationship issues, and you wanted to work them out, see the therapist, my anger, etc. It all came from a good place. I didn't need the extra relationship pressure on top of school, and I had no time/energy for it. I think things would have worked out on their own if you'd just chilled out. I don't think I misled you and I tried hard to manage your expectations of me. After a while I was burnt out between you and school, and spending time with you felt like a chore, a bad sign for any relationship. (This is where you say "but how could I chill out if bla bla blah?" To that, I say - just chill out, I don't care. I was faithful, caring most of the time, had no intentions of ending the relationship. You couldn't do that, and that's on you.) I felt you put even more pressure on me as the spring semester began, telling me what I was doing wasn't good enough and I needed to make more of an effort. Having not really relaxed much during the winter break (bc I was helping you), I went straight back to school with no real decompression time (my problem, not yours). I just wanted a little free time to myself, and you fought me every step of the way. After telling you what I wanted since September, I felt like you weren't working with me, but rather taking the relationship reigns yourself. Hence, with my only request from you (chilling out) not being met, I broke up with you. There are many things I did wrong as well, but the point of this email is to tell you the principal reason I broke up with you, and that reason is not that I think you're a piece of shit person (which you seem to think that I think). I don't think you're a piece of shit. The opposite, in fact. You're awesome in basically every way. But you were unable to meet my only demand and after a while it crushed me and I became non-responsive. Hope this helps clear things up. (My ex) MY response, 2015: Hi (My DA ex), "However, hints of those factors were exhibited in your inability to be chill, go with the flow, and let things slide. Specifically, there was little wiggle room to put the relationship second to school." 1. I went with the flow, going with the flow means feeling secure and communicating about expectations and needs and being willing to work with your partner's needs. In a relationship, both people's needs should be met. If my need was to feel that we had regular time-spending allotted, that's not asking you to put school second. At all. I am in a really fucking demanding program that is totally on par with first year med school. I wanted to study together. YOU came to NY to take molly and go dancing. You lied by omission. You went to AC. You smoked weed and stayed up really late, despite my urging you to go to bed earlier and study earlier (I read that was more effective.) I wanted you to do well in school, so you are full of shit when you say there was little wiggle room to put the relationship second to school. THE RELATIONSHIP WAS NEVER IN COMPETITION WITH SCHOOL - GET IT OUT OF YOUR HEAD. When you had to meet with the dean (**he'd gotten in trouble for something at school), I was supportive. However, you didn't react supportively to my getting extended time on tests bc of my ADHD. You accused me of cheating the system. We had talks from that point on about giving each other (me, specifically, since I was being attacked regularly) the benefit of the doubt. When I asked for help buying a ticketmaster ticket online, you accused me of being a child. You accused me of wanting to steal from your roommate, which is completely absurd and beyond offensive. You got angry every weekend for something small. Dishes, toothbrush, whatever. All bullshit. I wanted to vacuum your place to make it cozier for both of us, I wanted to cook for you so you could eat healthy food while studying, and wanted to get nicer sheets. Meanwhile, you had the audacity to complain that we ordered chinese food when I would come out there, blaming me FOR EVERYTHING you were unhappy with. We ordered chinese because we were studying, and cooking requires a trip to the grocery store, and I'd be there for two days. Dick. "I didn't need the extra relationship pressure on top of school, and I had no time/energy for it." Yes, because you didn't value me or the relationship, hence the pretty regular disrespect, character assassinations and lashings out. "I think things would have worked out on their own if you'd just chilled out. I don't think I misled you and I tried hard to manage your expectations of me. After a while I was burnt out between you and school, and spending time with you felt like a chore, a bad sign for any relationship. (This is where you say "but how could I chill out if bla bla blah?" To that, I say - just chill out, I don't care. I was faithful, caring most of the time, had no intentions of ending the relationship. You couldn't do that, and that's on you.)" I didn't do ONE chill thing - and that was freak out (during PMS and getting a little separation anxiety bc school was about to start) by pushing you to stay at your parents house instead of driving back. But even then, you would have had "alone time" there, you just would have been able to spend more time with me. Otherwise, I was as chill as I could possibly be without betraying who I am and what I wanted. I didn't text you when you had that test. I didn't come immediately during the four day weekend, and I did not insist you come to the Nets game, which was ONE social event from MY school. I never asked you not to see your friends, I just didn't want you to be a fucking asshole to me when I needed to study for a test when I had a gig. You treated every single emotional need of mine with the utmost disrespect. Yes, wanting to feel supported by my boyfriend while I'm trying to kick ass in school IS a need and I'm not apologizing for it. I deserve that. You said you couldn't put the relationship second to school, meanwhile, you didn't appreciate my efforts to combine the two (like a fucking adult) and gave me a hard time about wanting to take Amtrak so I could get to school early enough and get some studying in. Life doesn't get easier, it gets harder, with more responsibilities, as we enter our professions. I was balancing the relationship and school, realizing they were not in competition with one another. You were faithful, and caring "most of the time," but you were extremely emotionally abusive the other times when you would literally lash out. DO you have any idea what it feels like to have the person who is supposed to know you best, who is supposed to have your back, who apparently loves you, to accuse you of doing things that you NEVER EVER would do? Or to accuse you of having bad intentions when all you want to do is do well in school and work towards a stable relationship and make music and go to the gym and cook food and have fun when you're able? Btw, I hope you remember what you said at Joe's in front of everyone: that I wasn't "allowed to go." Real classy, that made me feel really respected, not. "I felt you put even more pressure on me as the spring semester began, telling me what I was doing wasn't good enough and I needed to make more of an effort. Having not really relaxed much during the winter break (bc I was helping you), I went straight back to school with no real decompression time (my problem, not yours). I just wanted a little free time to myself, and you fought me every step of the way. " I did not fight you "every step of the way" for free time to yourself. That's not true. You just weren't respectful to me. I have my own life and my own friends and it's quite fulfilling, but together time in a relationship is a must. You wanted me to respect you but you did not respect me on a regular basis. There is something from the marriage book that says, "if your partner seems defensive, maybe you're giving them a reason to be." You were. Yes, perhaps I put too much pressure to quickly, but we don't live together, and I'm 27, some of my classmates are married, and I wanted that awesome stability at this stage with you. I wanted to make sure the effort was shared, especially since after winter break I would have a good apartment that you could stay in, also being aware that Marton would be coming and going and I would probably do most of the traveling to Jersey. You could have relaxed more during Winter Break. In fact, I suggested that we work on the apartment and then do something fun, but you needed to go have "alone time". As if living in Jersey isn't alone time. ALSO, even if I have a tendency to be anxious before impending separations, it goes away when I express myself and feel loved and supported. That's like a tenet of female behavior, if you don't understand that by now, god help you. I have emotions and they will pass if I feel loved and supported while I express them. That's NOT the same thing as looking disgusted when I bring up getting engaged, bring up schedules, mention being anxious about a test and having you say it's not your problem. And I was doing MY part to "chill out." I was getting more okay with you not coming every weekend, I was trying to navigate my anxiety about your motorcycle. I was trying to be okay with you not coming to NY as long as I could go there when I was able, and if I felt welcome, like it was somewhat of a SHARED space for us, and if I felt emotionally safe there. I was also talking to Kevin, and Kevin and I would talk about my anxiety, but Kevin also said you dropping me off at the station was NOT something that was okay. But fuck what the therapist says. The important thing is that was NOT okay for me. Dropping your girlfriend off and not picking her up is emotionally violent. For the record, you would say, "maybe you should go to talk Kevin," as a way of gas lighting me (if you don't know what gas lighting is, look it up.) I'm so sorry you consider putting up shelves, curtains and other fun house projects so exhausting and taxing. I'm sorry I took valuable time away from your smoking weed and watching Dragonball Z and Full Metal Alchemist and sports. I thought we had somewhat of a good time listening to your basketball podcasts and hammering stuff. I encouraged you to spend time with your friends and wanted to do fun stuff besides house fixing - it was, after all, my winter break as well. I thought you understood that being a boyfriend sometimes means helping your girlfriend out with a big project like home-improvement. "After telling you what I wanted since September, I felt like you weren't working with me, but rather taking the relationship reigns yourself. Hence, with my only request from you (chilling out) not being met, I broke up with you." I was trying to work with you, but you were being mean, and it seem like you didn't want to be depended on (and every time I would express a need, you would either attack me with emotional violence or tell me what a kid I am or how I'm too dependent on you). You weren't listening to me, and even now, you BLAME ME. "To that, I say - just chill out, I don't care. I was faithful, caring most of the time, had no intentions of ending the relationship. You couldn't do that, and that's on you.)" BTW "work with you" implies that you were doing some kind of introspection or that it was important enough for you to do. It wasn't. Meanwhile, I was not the one who did the breaking up. In fact, I had just made a smoothie for us when we got back from the gym membership I BOUGHT FOR US, and you had promised that we were going to do something that day when you dropped the "break" bomb on me. Now you say I couldn't respect or chill during the two weeks, but a couple days ago you said you were trying to make it less painful by doing it gradually or some bullshit. www.gurl.com/2014/03/03/signs-your-boyfriend-is-too-immature-for-a-relationship/#3 (consider 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 10) thoughtcatalog.com/jamie-valinoti/2013/12/10-signs-youre-dating-an-immature-guy/ (everything except for 9 and 10, but possibly 9 if you consider your lack of ambition to work on your anger problem.) " You're awesome in basically every way. But you were unable to meet my only demand and after a while it crushed me and I became non-responsive." Grow up. |
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. I’m half kidding. But I do feel ready to do a deep dive into my own attachment work, I’ve signed up for the school of personal developments courses and I’m putting aside time to journal everyday. 
If they can deactivate and literally stop LIKING someone and see the worst in someone, when the hell do they feel this "love?" Is it just like a little twang of nostalgia after a year? No thank you, that's not enough! What does that even mean? Do they get clarity when they calm down? Do they miss people a LOT or just a little? 