|
|
Post by tnr9 on Feb 21, 2021 13:52:18 GMT
I completely understand the fear of engulfment....I have experienced it personally and I think there is no right or wrong party. I think neither person sees the other correctly and instead of asking questions...assumptions are made on both sides and neither person feels seen. I typically land on the anxious side of the relationship with an avoidant leaning FA. What I have observed in myself is that when I am the anxious partner....I tend to rely heavily on the “potential” of my partner. I see some good traits in my partner and focus on those instead of allowing my partner to define himself. I create this amazing scenario in my head where he is everything I ever wanted instead of seeing him as he actually is and I get fearful when he starts to pull away that I will lose that fantasy partner.
However, when I have had an anxious man pursue me.....I tend to shut down and create walls and my thought is...this guy doesn’t see “me”...he sees what he wants to see and I fear being engulfed by his needs. My thought is...I can’t give you what I don’t have....which is....I can’t give you that “perfect” woman you are projecting on me.
I only say this because it is easy to play a victim to the other person instead of owning how I may have contributed to the unhealthy dynamic. Until I started to really look at my role and my past and why I was pursuing after insecure men....I was in a wash and repeat cycle of my own doing. I always encourage new members to move away from looking at the partner’s issues and instead do some deep soul searching into how this dynamic formed.
|
|
|
|
Post by theoracle on Feb 21, 2021 15:29:09 GMT
doctora , letting go of should doesn't mean putting up with poor treatment. It means quickly recognizing when something is incompatible due to differences while not taking it personally. Chalking it up to there being differences of opinion and perspective, which is incompatible yet still neutral and nothing personal, and seeing that as enough to merit walking away. You know what you're looking for, so that should give you a good starting point from deciding if something is a f*ck yes, or a no, without struggling through trying to get someone to change to meet you where you're at. Sorry, alexandra , I don't get what you're trying to explain to me, or which part of my venting rubbed you the wrong way. When I express opinions or feelings about my relationship with my ex, that's just about me and my ex. My ex's opinions and perspectives wasn't neutral, he was fucked up, almost objectively speaking. He was very dismissive avoidant...and toward the end seemed to acknowledge that. I think that with avoidants things go a little deeper than just incompatibility. Sure, you can label anyone who doesn't meet your needs as incompatible and that wouldn't be incorrect. But what happens is that even if you meet someone who you get along fantastically with and who is great for you in every way your most primal and basic need of all, the need for attachment, won't be met. And without attachment to the parent figure the human baby, or any other mammal child does not survive. Actually in adulthood as well in order to form social groups, belong etc. there is a need for attachment. So when you are with someone who you cannot achieve emotional intimacy with (and you are not aware on a conscious level of what is going on) all kinds of alarms start going off in your body and you regress to the child state of the psyche where you start doing everything you can to save this relationship your life depends on. What I'm trying to say is that being with a partner you cannot attach to is a little bit like being with a partner you cannot have sex with - both needs you can live without but you shouldn't and it isn't about incompatibility, it goes back to basics. |
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Feb 21, 2021 19:31:43 GMT
I think that with avoidants things go a little deeper than just incompatibility. Sure, you can label anyone who doesn't meet your needs as incompatible and that wouldn't be incorrect. But what happens is that even if you meet someone who you get along fantastically with and who is great for you in every way your most primal and basic need of all, the need for attachment, won't be met. And without attachment to the parent figure the human baby, or any other mammal child does not survive. Actually in adulthood as well in order to form social groups, belong etc. there is a need for attachment. So when you are with someone who you cannot achieve emotional intimacy with (and you are not aware on a conscious level of what is going on) all kinds of alarms start going off in your body and you regress to the child state of the psyche where you start doing everything you can to save this relationship your life depends on. What I'm trying to say is that being with a partner you cannot attach to is a little bit like being with a partner you cannot have sex with - both needs you can live without but you shouldn't and it isn't about incompatibility, it goes back to basics. I think it is very much an individual thing....my mom is an FA who leans avoidant and she has been married to my step father for around 30 years. I do think there is an incompatibility factor....I have ex boyfriends who were not a good fit for me but are married. I am hopeful that by working on my own insecurity....I will be able to attract and be attracted to more compatible partners. |
|
|
|
Post by doctora on Feb 23, 2021 3:00:29 GMT
anne12 ...right on, thanks for the exercises! simon ...thank you. You said: "... after much time with a person like this, we change our communication style and start walking on eggshells, we are taught by them that we can't be open and honest and direct, that we are limited on what we can say or they will shut down and disconnect. So, our smart mind knows that in order to get a point across to them, we FIRST have to submit to their fragility and take on more responsibility than we should, just to set the scene." Totally. It's normal, to respect your partner’s sensitivities and try to minimize any damage if you anticipate a bad reaction to something you're saying...but if your partner is fragile, inconsistent, mistrusting, and easily activated, it's nearly impossible to anticipate their reactions. Talking about any touchy topic with my ex was like walking through a field of landmines. Sometimes I didn't even realize a topic was touchy. And, I actually sucked at walking on eggshells! I did say some stuff I wish I'd said differently, however, my repair attempts were usually rebuked...so if I said something a little too harsh or critical sounding, or controlling, but tried to do a "do-over" where I would clarify what I actually meant, it was usually "too late". Like all anxious/secure partners, I longed to have real discussions where we came together to solve problems, but was constantly scared of his deactivating. Eventually I adopted the strategy of just sending my DA literature (book excerpt, article, a link to a website, video, whatever) about whatever I thought I was right about, or whatever I wanted to point out to him. That way, it didn't come from me, because I was trained to know that when deactivated, he would not - could not - hear or see ME at all. Even though sending info from a distance was definitely an improvement from berating and lecturing him, he would only be able to process the stuff I sent him if he was in a calm mindset, which he rarely was by the time I was sending him articles  . In fact, this last reconciliation attempt happened after he read a book I sent to him (Jeb's book), 9 months after the previous break-up...and lo and behold, he was, truly, responsive. It's this kind of thing that ends up serving as intermittent reinforcement, right? Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. That freetoattach website you mentioned? Love it. That website gave me chills it made so much sense. That was the website I told him to check out this last time, when he was starting to deactivate (after we'd had a disagreement that never made it into a full-on argument, because well, he shut down). I actually sent him that exact link! That website is so spot on, and it was just describing everything he was doing to the point where it was simply undeniable. Every. Single. Bulletpoint. I mistakenly thought that since it was so accurate, my ex for sure would see clearly what he was doing, and then come back to therapy even more committed to working through problems. WRONG! He ended up doing EXACTLY what you described..."they start to really see these things, their shame gets activated even more, and they will want to either stop therapy or go "solo" because they don't want YOU or anyone else to see how bad things are. So while YOU understand healing and repair as a "system" of 2 people, they do not... they go solo and isolate the more the shame is activated. His pattern is quite unsurprising." Indeed! So, when this happened, I was confused as to whether this shut-down was just therapeutic resistance, and whether I should still hold out hope that he'll wanna return to the drawing board after being in individual therapy. However, now, truly, I’m starting to not give a shit if he does or doesn’t. Again, writing all this stuff out helps as does reading other people's experiences. tnr9 …absolutely. For years I had the typical, "if my DA did this, then everything would be better for me." However, to my credit, by the time I was doing therapy with my ex this time around, I had a good understanding of my and his attachment styles. I had stopped taking his need for space personally, and basically was on my best behavior. I understood his fear of engulfment, and also was going slow for the both of us. I think I was doing things as correctly as I could be, and also, I was following the attachment couple's therapist's instructions. I don't think that still being attracted to a DA is always because of irrational projection. Throughout the years, the more secure I became (even if I wasn’t 100%, I was still inching towards it), the more convinced I was that we could be one of those couples that works on it and makes it. In a way, I really believed in him, believed in us. We could always be a little AP or a little DA, but we desperately needed therapy to get us started. And I also knew that I’d have to be patient with my ex-DA while he basically “caught up”, since this was really his first real attempt at therapy. That’s not the same as calling myself a victim or blaming him or any of that. So, yes, I fantasized about our relationship once he “caught up”. I guess what I’m getting at, is that yes, there was an element of fantasy and being preoccupied with the relationship’s potential, but it was REAL potential, if that makes sense. Like, the couple’s therapist said to me when I had my solo wrap-up session, that she understood why I tried so hard. He DID have potential, and it was frustrating for me because I could almost see it clearly, the steps both of us would have had to take to make it work. I was willing to do all those steps, and he said he was too, but then he stopped being willing to when he realized it wasn’t gonna be so easy. She also told me, “this cannot be your life’s work, to make this man grow up.” theoracle ….You make a great point. It’s easy to pathologize the anxious-avoidant dance, (and by the time you’re on this forum chances are shits gotten bad), but in a way it is a profound kind of compatibility. Of course there are probably couples for whom the main thing keeping them together is this subconscious draw towards the other attachment style. On the other hand I believe there are many AP/DA couples, who decide that the good stuff in the relationship is worth working through get to the stability/bliss stages, and are stronger for it, if they actually go through with it. I think an issue was that my ex-DA was an "Imago," which Harville Hendrix wrote about in his "Getting the Love You Want" book. I’m positive tons of people on this forum have read that book or heard about it, but for those who haven’t, it explains how we fall deeply in love with those who have the positive and negative traits of our parents, and/or compensate for the positive traits of ourselves that were cut off in childhood...and that the purpose of marriage is to "finish childhood." In other words, you, by necessity, will end up attaching to those who bring problems of your childhood to surface so that you can heal them and evolve. Obviously this is related to attachment theory, but it also takes it a step further, and provides an explanation for why we deeply, deeply attach and fall in love with some people, but not others. My ex was a perfect storm of positive and negative traits of my early caretakers, and definitely had some traits that I admire but myself don’t express. We bonded through humor and intellectual pursuits and affection, but he was avoidant and neglectful - just like my dad....my ex was a provider and responsible and had integrity and discipline like my mom, but also would embarrass me in public like she did. The list goes on and on. Yes, I think once you’re more secure, you can probably attach to someone else who has fewer negative characteristics that you’re subconsciously attracted to and hopefully still has the positive ones. But, it’s not possible to attach to anyone - secure or not secure - if you still have a primary romantic attachment to someone already. I really don’t blame myself for wanting to work on this shit with my ex-DA, I don’t think it necessarily came from an anxious-preoccupied space, at least not this time. Our attachment was a mix of healthy and unhealthy, but whatever it was, it wasn’t going anywhere, so it seemed like the smartest thing to do was work with it instead of against it. To me, making our relationship healthy was 100% the most ideal outcome of any possible relationship I could have with anyone. I think it’s a damn shame that he couldn’t/wouldn’t/didn’t. However, I believe I needed this last attempt at reconciliation with my ex to finally push me over the edge in getting over this. I left NO stone unturned and I know that, and now I can start the hard work of detaching from him. Ok…so about this “should” thing. I get what everyone is saying and yes, I agree. I'll try to explain what I really was trying to vent about: I understand my ex’s wiring is different. And I know everyone loves differently etc. I knew my ex loved me because of of certain behaviors, but then he would do this other stuff that wasn’t loving AT ALL. He’d want to be my hero when he felt loving, and then he’d completely abandon me when he deactivated. Not to mention that as time has passed he would deactivate faster and more intensely, with the “loving” times becoming fewer and far between. It's been a point of reckoning to realize that there's just as much evidence that my ex loves me as there is that he doesn't. So, I think the answer is, quite simply, that my ex loved me, and also didn’t. It was both. This inconsistency that the avoidant has...is that really "love"? Is it really love if you're not that worried about losing the person? There's a difference between taking someone for granted (where you don't actually think you'll lose em) vs. being OK with losing them. Everyone says, “avoidants run away from love,” etc., but is it really love if you can just turn it off? This is just semantics at this point. But these are the types of things I think about now. I’m just deeply perplexed as to what I actually MEANT to my ex. How does he see me? If he’s able to repress his attachment to me, then what does it feel like when it rears its head? How often does he think of me? What does he actually feel? How would he feel if I died? Has he ever worried about me? I am confused as to what the love and/or attachment that the avoidant feels for the anxious partner actually IS, at least when he feels it. WTF is it? What made him come back, and why isn’t it enough to make him stay? I think these questions are normal, and they are, of course, rhetorical, and I may never get closure on these questions. However, at this point, I totally acknowledge that IT DOESN'T MATTER what I mean to my ex, for the reasons that all you lovely people have outlined. I'll never really know. My needs haven't been met and I deserve better. Plain and simple. Do I accept what has happened? Yes. Do I think it was a poor decision on my ex's part to leave therapy? Yes. Do I care? Less and less. As I detach from him now, I am just paying way more attention to the parts of his behavior that said, "I don't love you/am OK with losing you/am not worried about you or your wellbeing." Quite simple. Because I WANT to. This is 100% making it easier for me to let go and move on. I think there comes a point where SHOULD is healthy, because it’s your needs-not-being-met alarm going off and your sense of anger kicking in. I’m sorry, but being extremely DA sucks. A little DA is ok and comes with certain advantages for sure! But my ex, as the therapist put it, was "one of the more extreme cases she's seen." I had been pushy with him because the outcome I was imagining was healthy for both of us, so I thought it was worth it. Had I thought that he truly didn't love me or didn't want those same things, or, if I thought that he understood what was going on and STILL didn't wanna work on it (which is what happened) I would have stopped trying (which I have). There's a difference between being pushy and not accepting reality. I didn't know that the reality was he couldn't or wouldn't fix the relationship yet...I wasn't convinced that he understood our patterns as a fixable dynamic, so I kept holding out hope that if he did, he/we would do better. I was never interested into forcing my ex into a relationship with me or forcing him to love me. That's a creepy kind of "should." I was more like, " if you love me, you/we should learn how to meet each other's needs." It seemed as if I had gotten through to him and he, too, thought it was a good idea to reconcile. Regardless of this outcome, if I hadn’t insisted, then who knows where he would be now? Maybe he would have never found out that he was a DA. Maybe I did him a favor after all. I don't think it's so bad to try everything you got to convince your partner to work on their attachment style with you. I think it's fine. It's just knowing when to give up that determines whether it's healthy or not. ...Anyways, I'm beyond grateful for this forum. I can't tell you how much it's helping me, being able to just get everything out and read everyone's experiences and insight.
|
|
simon
New Member
Posts: 46
|
Post by simon on Feb 23, 2021 14:20:53 GMT
Doctora, sound like you're in a good place towards acceptance and on a good path to owning and enforcing clear, healthy boundaries in what you want and need. This makes me happy to see.
I can understand your position, as I test 100% secure and have a history of very healthy relationships, so I feel like "conscious" needs and attraction with my ex-FA/DA were valid and healthy, pertaining to alignment of core values, life goals, interests, etc... that part was authentic, and I feel confident that I was NOT being run by unconscious Imago constructs that can be very powerful. In fact, I was indeed hurt and frustrated by many of her behaviors, but at the same time never lost my cool or felt triggered, always calm and able to communicate with respect and clarity, ands also empathy. So this part feels good, although also difficult... because then I know our "match" was indeed special in those ways.
However, to your point on what is "love"... there is the "triangle theory of true love" that posits all 3 sides of the triangle must be present to build real and enduring love - passion, intimacy, commitment. For yourself, you can judge what was missing.
But for my situation, I finally came to this conclusion: there is "being in love" and then there is "building love". And the "being in love" is what anybody can "feel"... but to "build love" takes a whole, healthy individual that has done the shadow work to integrate and align both their conscious and unconscious minds towards the same goal and healthy outcome towards building "true love" in the real world.
And this is the challenge of the avoidant, and why they can only be most comfortable in keeping love "in fantasy", from a distance. Remember, it's not really the love (appreciation) that is triggering, but it is the "attachment" that causes anxiety/fear. So no matter how much the Avoidant conscious mind sees good things, their unconscious fears and programs will win every time. Which is why the avoidant is most "comfortable" loving from a distance, keeping that "love" in their created "fantasy world" where everything is safe and controlled and "unreal". To bring that "love" from fantasy into reality, is what triggers the anxiety and fears.
For you, to "attach" is safety and security and calming and soothing and positive... for an avoidant it is anxious and fearful and dangerous and uncomfortable and negative, on a very very deep level.
So yes, they can be very much "in love" and appreciate positive aspects of the other person in a real way, but mainly that love must be compartmentalized as a "fantasy" kept safe and sound in their head. Because their challenge is to be able to "build a love" in reality, as a team, with commitment, and "be present" in the real world with that love.
And remember, the unconscious attachment wounds when they bubble up can be very powerful, visceral, instinct - this is not logical or conscious, they just "feel" the intense feelings of fear, anxiety, suffocation, control, engulfment, etc.
That experience, would be like if someone took you to the top of a 100 story building, made you stand on the edge, and said "jump" as they pushed you. Your mind would not be in a conscious logical thinking state, it would be in a fear-based, highly anxious, automatic state of survival. And that is something to remember, how powerful the "feelings" of being in that state are to their experience. Which is why them learning about attachment theory and consciously understanding it, doesn't change a damn thing to reprogram the very deep unconscious programs.
And this is also likely a phase on typical recovery, is the learning about attachment and an avoidant going "oh wow, I get it... this all makes sense and I understand myself better now" but then getting really frustrated (shame) when their behavior and triggering doesn't really change and they realize that they can't control it, so they pull away more, again out of shame and realizing that healing isn't going to be quick or easy.
It would be like going back to the top of that building, but this time I put a parachute on your back. And even though your conscious mind knew it was there, it probably wouldn't be any easier for you to jump of that building, would it? Because your survival mode would still be resisting and have the same amount of fear and anxiety over the situation, even if the conscious mind knew it was safe. It would take a lot of time and effort to reprogram those unconscious fears to feel safe and secure jumping off that building.
So I will circle this back around now to the "should" thing... and just say that it would be completely understandable and natural to take a stance and question "why wasn't I enough? IF they LOVED me, they would stop doing this crazy stuff! Did they love me, REALLY love me? And if they did, then they SHOULD be able to love me"... but it's not about love, and it never was... it was about fears and anxiety and things that have had decades to brew in their soul, that had nothing to do with you, and that "LOVE for you" would never be strong enough to overcome, because their "LOVE" for themself (at this stage for survival) is more important than their "love" for you could ever be.
|
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Feb 23, 2021 14:43:25 GMT
Simon...I question this assessment as I know plenty of people who fall on the avoidant side of the relationship who are married. So attachment is possible...it depends on the individual and the partner.
And this is the challenge of the avoidant, and why they can only be most comfortable in keeping love "in fantasy", from a distance. Remember, it's not really the love (appreciation) that is triggering, but it is the "attachment" that causes anxiety/fear. So no matter how much the Avoidant conscious mind sees good things, their unconscious fears and programs will win every time. Which is why the avoidant is most "comfortable" loving from a distance, keeping that "love" in their created "fantasy world" where everything is safe and controlled and "unreal". To bring that "love" from fantasy into reality, is what triggers the anxiety and fears.
|
|
|
|
Post by doctora on Feb 23, 2021 16:17:40 GMT
Simon...I question this assessment as I know plenty of people who fall on the avoidant side of the relationship who are married. So attachment is possible...it depends on the individual and the partner. . , For sure, it totally depends on where they’re at, I guess. Where they are in their journey. I do believe my ex one day will change a lot, because he has always wanted a family. I think this is too large a goal of his to not eventually motivate him to make some kinds of changes. Although who the hell really knows. All I know is he isn’t making them for me when I need him to due to biological clock. The reasons simon listed feel right to me. I think my ex does “love me” on the fantasy level and even imagines(imagined?) me as the mother of his kids. In fact, I know this is true because the argument we had that was the “cause” for the breakup this time was that I was intrusive in his professional life and told him that I was uncomfortable with something he wanted to do as a doctor. In therapy, when the therapist and I gave him the floor to air out his grievances about this, he literally said, “when she said that I was so angry. We both want her to be able to stay at home with the kids or work only part time when we have kids and that’s totally fine, but I was thinking, what, she’s gonna stay at home and tell ME what I can and cannot do at work when I’m providing for her and the family? She wants to control me!” Like...he loved me enough to picture me in his head as his wife for sure, but he was DA enough to get just as scared in his head about as well. This is what Thais Gibson talks about, she frames it as a math problem: An avoidants love/desire to be with you - the avoidant’s fears about being with you = how they show up in the relationship. They could want to be with you 9/10, for example, but if they’re a 7/10 scared, then they will show up as having a 2/10 commitment. I think my ex must be really terrified of a relationship with me, because I do see that he wanted to be with me a LOT on one level. It’s probably like 10-10=0. But as the fears wax and wane (I think love in general has more sticking power than fear, period), he comes and goes. But, each time he does so, the baseline fear levels go up because more instability and anxiety gets thrown into the mix. So it’s a cycle that leads to an impossible situation that requires a ton of motivation from BOTH parties if it’s to get fixed. Some thing I have realized, is that my ex was the most excited about marriage when he was an officer in the army. A couple reasons...1) Because so many of his peers and colleagues were getting engaged and married and having kids, and there was this pervasive social acceptance of marriage. The culture of the army was changing and therapy was encouraged, and guys talked about their wives and girlfriends with each other, too. Having a GF made him feel more respected and included. 2) he wasn’t taking any drugs or alcohol and had a lot of responsibility at work so he felt more husband/Dad-like 3) the army HAD to come first, and he could fly me in and out to live with him when he wasn’t deployed (he had the control of when we’d be together, and even though he always flew me out, it was still under his control. It was always HIS place we stayed in even though he “let it be my place too”, and it was never in NYC, where my life, friends, hobbies were. It was long distance, and thus I wasn’t able to incorporate my whole life into the relationship, and that was safer for him. Anyways, I think Simons assessment is spot on in my case, at least. |
|
|
|
Post by doctora on Feb 23, 2021 16:31:33 GMT
simon, thank you for this. You really get it. What you’re saying feels completely right to me. I really appreciate that you understanding where I’m coming from.
|
|
simon
New Member
Posts: 46
|
Post by simon on Feb 23, 2021 23:08:26 GMT
tnr9 - You are right, in that I over-generalized my response, where I meant it to be for a severe DA behavior with strong deactivation tendencies, which seems to be the case here. Attachment styles are on a spectrum, and there are definitely ALSO people with lighter DA tendencies and behaviors, although I do believe that until those wounds are healed, there is likely still the same desire even if married, to keep certain elements in "fantasy" mode and distance, maybe just to a lighter or less reactive methodology that doesn't bubble up as much, like people that are scared of flying but can still get on the plane and deal with it, but the fear is still there - just managed better.
doctora - you are very welcome, my recent ex that was strong FA with severe DA behavior taught me a lot, and there seems to be a lot of similarities for you. If you haven't read my thread in the FA section, it was a shell shock to me, as all my other relationships have been mostly healthy and I test 100% secure before and after. But there were also some undertones of severe CPTSD and emotional flashbacks, and maybe even some Borderline traits. I wouldn't wish this "ride" on anybody, it threw me for a loop.
I had to chuckle, when you were talking about being at the therapist and he mentioned being "controlled"... this is an extremely strong trigger. My ex used to scream at me "You're suffocating me, I can't ever do what I want!!!" just out of the blue and kick me out of her apartment and not talk to me for a week. And funny thing, I am a very un-needy and un-controlling person and actually pushed her to take a lot of time for herself. And when I asked her later what I could do differently or exactly how I "controlled her", she would say "Nothing, you're practically perfect, I couldn't ask for anything more." Sigh. And like you, we started out in different cities so there was a lot more built-in space at first. I remember reading somewhere that DAs tend too be unconsciously attracted to people that live in different cities because of that built-in space.
Sounds like it was similar for your situation in a way, and since visitation was under his control. And we talked about a future, and she said that she had never felt this way before, and I believe her and think it was a 10-10=0 sum game in my case too. But the closer they feel to someone, and therefore more there is to lose or be rejected by, then the more they will unconsciously sabotage it as it shifts from "fantasy" to "real". And I at least got her to individual therapy, but she stopped after 4 sessions and refused couples therapy because she wanted to "work on herself alone". That shame, again.
And also things were likely smoother when he was in the army, because there was that built-in space... and also routine, which is calming as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Feb 25, 2021 14:08:27 GMT
nr9 - You are right, in that I over-generalized my response, where I meant it to be for a severe DA behavior with strong deactivation tendencies, which seems to be the case here. Attachment styles are on a spectrum, and there are definitely ALSO people with lighter DA tendencies and behaviors, although I do believe that until those wounds are healed, there is likely still the same desire even if married, to keep certain elements in "fantasy" mode and distance, maybe just to a lighter or less reactive methodology that doesn't bubble up as much, like people that are scared of flying but can still get on the plane and deal with it, but the fear is still there - just managed better.
That is a rather big assumption made on a rather large group of individuals. I also think that we all can get sucked into the realm of fantasy and get hooked into a person’s potential. Before we truly know someone, that is really all we have to go on....and it comes down to how much we invest in keeping that fantasy going or relying on a person’s potential versus accepting that person as he or she is and deciding whether this person is a good fit for us. And for that matter ALL insecure...not just those on the avoidant side are caught in this fantasy partner....that is why the dance requires 2 people who are in he/her own fantasy story.
|
|
simon
New Member
Posts: 46
|
Post by simon on Feb 25, 2021 18:09:53 GMT
That is a rather big assumption made on a rather large group of individuals. I also think that we all can get sucked into the realm of fantasy and get hooked into a person’s potential. First of all, the "assumption" was based on tons of research and counseling anecdotes and first hand accounts of partners and DAs themselves. But again, my description was primarily aimed at a strong DA response system IN THIS THREAD, which seems to be the case here with doctora. Second of all, in describing "fantasy", I did not mean the dream fantasy of a partner's potential; that is different and we all do it to some extent in projecting our needs onto a new partner. I meant a mindset of an avoidant where the feelings of love are compartmentalized in a "fantasy" environment that is created with lots of distance, to separate from reality and real-world interactions that cause anxiety. It's a form of defensive dissociation. In other words, the feelings of love are most felt as safe when they are existing in their head and in imagination, but not as much in real-world environment where things have real affect and consequence. Kind of like watching a person jump off a building with a parachute and imagining jumping off a building with a parachute, are a LOT more comfortable, than going to the top and standing on the edge of the building in real life. Reminds me of a quote "We feel love only in its absence" because that is the only time it feels safe. Ah, the irony. At its essence, avoidant attachment means we can not soothe or regulate through another, it has to be alone... because that's when threat systems are calm and regulated, so through distance is when we can allow the safety of "feeling" attachment and love, with no fear of needs or suffocation or touch or other threat responses. This is a great 2-part series if you haven't seen it: www.goodtherapy.org/blog/avoidant-attachment-part-1-dependence-dilemma-0201184 |
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Feb 25, 2021 20:06:49 GMT
That is a rather big assumption made on a rather large group of individuals. I also think that we all can get sucked into the realm of fantasy and get hooked into a person’s potential. First of all, the "assumption" was based on tons of research and counseling anecdotes and first hand accounts of partners and DAs themselves. But again, my description was primarily aimed at a strong DA response system IN THIS THREAD, which seems to be the case here with doctora. Second of all, in describing "fantasy", I did not mean the dream fantasy of a partner's potential; that is different and we all do it to some extent in projecting our needs onto a new partner. I meant a mindset of an avoidant where the feelings of love are compartmentalized in a "fantasy" environment that is created with lots of distance, to separate from reality and real-world interactions that cause anxiety. It's a form of defensive dissociation. In other words, the feelings of love are most felt as safe when they are existing in their head and in imagination, but not as much in real-world environment where things have real affect and consequence. Kind of like watching a person jump off a building with a parachute and imagining jumping off a building with a parachute, are a LOT more comfortable, than going to the top and standing on the edge of the building in real life. Reminds me of a quote "We feel love only in its absence" because that is the only time it feels safe. Ah, the irony. At its essence, avoidant attachment means we can not soothe or regulate through another, it has to be alone... because that's when threat systems are calm and regulated, so through distance is when we can allow the safety of "feeling" attachment and love, with no fear of needs or suffocation or touch or other threat responses. This is a great 2-part series if you haven't seen it: www.goodtherapy.org/blog/avoidant-attachment-part-1-dependence-dilemma-0201184I am not a big fan of articles that try to corral individuals into a particular mindset. I used to be all about that when I was trying to figure out why B acted a certain way...but then I realized...I was letting the articles guide my perspective and not his own statements. It gave me an out from really trying to get to know him as a person instead of clinging to a label to explain certain behaviors. As I have explored my own attachment issues...I have realized that they are far more complex then what is actually described in the various podcasts, articles etc. I think these are tools....but as with any tool.....it is about using them properly. I think when someone is at the beginning stages of attachment theory and trying to grasp why someone else reacts differently....the podcasts and articles are a great starting point. But I think to really understand a person’s individual attachment wounding requires a more curious and open mindset. I think these are also good starting points for individuals looking at their own attachment wounds and trying to understand why he/she might react a certain way...but again...I see it as a spring board into a deeper self exploration. |
|
|
|
Post by doctora on Feb 26, 2021 2:50:53 GMT
tnr9 ...so, I had to kind of go back and try to see what you were saying here. So there are two types of romanticizing/fantasizing. One is adaptive, necessary from an evolutionary perspective, healthy, it's what we do to partners we love, to our children. It's the "you are more special than others to me" romanticization. THIS is the type of romanticization that is only possible for my ex to have towards me when he keeps his distance. I know I've complained a lot and my ex treated me like garbage at times, but truth be told I know he "loves" me. Simon was reminding me of this because his treatment of me has been so upsetting and terrible and in the thread I was basically lamenting, "how the fuck can this be love, etc." Simon was correctly pointing out how things work for these types of dismissive avoidants. The other fantasizing/romanticizing that you seem to be talking about can be subdivided into two groups. 1) Potential w/ someone you don't know well and 2) Potential w/ someone you DO know well. The two are a little different because they are based on different things. The first one is based MORE on projection of one's hopes and desires than the second one. The 2nd one is likely based on hopes and desires, but also inconsistency, the "hot" part of the the hot and cold avoidants are known for, intermittent reinforcement, "breadcrumbs" of the realization of this potential, or at least steps toward it, but never getting the whole thing. Ultimately, you are not wrong when you say "it comes down to how much we invest in keeping that fantasy going or relying on a person’s potential versus accepting that person as he or she is and deciding whether this person is a good fit for us." Yes, I do agree, and this is why I cannot invest any longer in this relationship w/ my ex. But I hope you understand that when you know a person super well, a little *too* well, and you know the good and you know the bad, and you have some kind of a mutual-love system between you, wherein each person has the ability to influence the other, the recognition for potential isn't pure fantasy. Do you understand what I mean? The reason why I'm so sad about my ex is because when push came to shove, he wasn't willing or capable, at least now, of tolerating the discomfort and doing the WORK required to have a healthy relationship/be less avoidant, at least not with me in couple's therapy. However, there were many things that happened that I had guessed would happen based on my knowledge of his 'potential.' For example, when I sent him Jeb's book, HE DID want to go to therapy. He WAS excited about a future with me, and he was vocal about it. But when it came to the nitty gritty, the elbow grease of getting healthier, he freaked out. "And for that matter ALL insecure...not just those on the avoidant side are caught in this fantasy partner....that is why the dance requires 2 people who are in he/her own fantasy story." - sure, but again, not all "fantasies" are equal, or equally unhealthy. My avoidant "romanticized" me from a distance, but actually, I think those things were closer to his true feelings about me...that I'm awesome, smart, funny, a good friend, a good daughter, a good future mom, a good cook... He was able to see all the good things that he liked and loved, and would even tell me all those things when he was feeling good about me, but would freak out and deactivate when our interactions required more emotional intimacy. I, on the other hand, "romanticized" how great our relationship could be if he didn't do that, AND if I felt safe...and here's the thing. I wasn't an attachment theory novice, especially toward the end...I had done a lot of work on myself and was prepared to do more. I was waaayyy more secure than I ever had been previously in my life. Sometimes, the "self exploration" you're speaking of leads you to find out about all the attachment wounds, which is good. And sometimes, it leads you to a place where you're actually patting yourself on the back for giving a situation it's absolute best chances of working out by doing your half, and consoling yourself because the other person wouldn't do the same. Or both. And when you say it's a dance because it's two people...yes! Yes yes and yes. However, what do you call it when one person wants to stop doing the dance, or has learned another dance, and wants the partner to do the other dance with them, and is willing to be patient while the partner learns, and/or, is willing to hire an instructor to tell both partners how to dance this new dance? And then, the partner shows up to dance class, gets frustrated, and throws his dance shoes out and storms out the door in the middle of the lesson. What is that then? Lastly, a response to this: "I am not a big fan of articles that try to corral individuals into a particular mindset. I used to be all about that when I was trying to figure out why B acted a certain way...but then I realized...I was letting the articles guide my perspective and not his own statements. It gave me an out from really trying to get to know him as a person instead of clinging to a label to explain certain behaviors." I think you're totally correct to not put people into strict categories or descriptions. We all know here that attachment theory is a spectrum, and the same person can be more anxious in this situation, or more avoidant in this one, or more dismissive here and more fearful there. But get this...I did not know about attachment theory the first, oh, I dunno, 6 breakups with my ex? I actually knew intuitively that there was SOMETHING going on that was a cohesive pattern, but I couldn't put my finger on it. I read about narcissists...and while there were some cross-overs, my ex was definitely not a narcissist, or at least he did not have NPD. No way, that wasn't him. When I read the description of dismissive avoidants, their backgrounds, my jaw literally dropped. It was not that I was clinging to a label to explain certain behaviors. It's that his behaviors (and his own statements) were described- to a T - by this label. I know my ex super well. I know his family. My friends are his friends. I was his best friend when we dated and vice versa. I was friendly with his sister for years, who incidentally gave me even more insight into their childhood/background. If I believed people were irredeemably in this "category" or another, I would not have believed in couple's therapy. So please understand, that yes, MY ex was extremely avoidant. And this is what simon was talking about. However, I do agree with simon in that I think that this is one of the hallmark things avoidants struggle with....it's difficulty with real intimacy, and so their love/appreciation/admiration is more freely expressed/felt when there isn't any risk of intimacy.
|
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Feb 26, 2021 9:35:31 GMT
And when you say it's a dance because it's two people...yes! Yes yes and yes. However, what do you call it when one person wants to stop doing the dance, or has learned another dance, and wants the partner to do the other dance with them, and is willing to be patient while the partner learns, and/or, is willing to hire an instructor to tell both partners how to dance this new dance? And then, the partner shows up to dance class, gets frustrated, and throws his dance shoes out and storms out the door in the middle of the lesson. What is that then?
So...here is a perfect example of what I was saying....once someone is aware that the partner doesn’t want to learn the new dance for whatever reason....that person can choose to look at that and say....”this person is not a good fit for me” and then walk away to find someone who is. A decision to learn a new dance has to be something the partner wants to do and if that partner starts off acting like he or she wants to but then stops...that is just information regarding where that person is at that time.
Perhaps the takeaway from all of this is if a person is not willing to learn the new dance...then it is best to simply walk away. Easier said then done...but a good takeaway none the less.
|
|
|
|
Post by doctora on Feb 26, 2021 20:03:21 GMT
It’s not the walking away that’s hard when you’re in my position, since there’s truly nothing left for me to do. Not walking away would be useless, harmful, making a fool of myself. There’s no part of me that doesn’t want to walk away. What’s hard is making an emotional recovery - even after you’ve made sense of it, in order to truly feel better you have kill the attachment and stop loving the person. This isn’t easy. I’ve loved this person for years and held out hope for years. Even if it is correct that someone not willing to learn and practice a healthier dynamic with you means they are not the right fit, it’s a hard to internalize that when 1) they’re good fit in lots of other important ways that aren’t easily replaceable and 2) having a partner that’s secure and loving and awesome doesn’t actually mean they’re a good fit either. If I met someone secure (or just more secure than he was, or even just working on it) that checked off the boxes that my ex did, trust me, I’d love them even more for it. But I haven’t found that. The only thing that helps me get over this is focusing on what a total shit he has been to me and allowing myself to get angry. This may sound like I’m victimizing myself - fine. I feel like I should be focusing on what a complete asshole my ex has been. Of course it’s not black and white, but I have been way too lenient and understanding of these grey areas. Even his sister told me how he’s treated me is disgusting. Even his mother said he’s very difficult, “psychologically not normal, with a difficult character.” She also said he’s a “vulnerable and sweet” on the inside. All of this is true. He’s difficult and lovable and sometimes very loving. But regardless of how loving he can be, he has repeatedly devalued me, screwed me over w/ regards to my biological clock...seriously, any man who leaves a woman he “loves” basically no choice but to spend $10,000 on egg freezing because he ultimately could not follow through on his promises, and also led me on to believe he wanted a family with me....who DECIDED to stay avoidant when all the resources were at his fingertips to not be...is a fucking jerk. He didn’t respect my timeline nearly as much as he cared about his own minute to minute needs...he wasn’t concerned with my well-being in those moments when he kicked me out of his car, apartment, when he would literally abandon me. I don’t think he didn’t totally care, but I suspect he had that hallmark avoidant denial of loss so strong that he, a doctor, didn’t even call me directly when I had COVID. I’m an idiot for giving him another chance. You know how long I’ve spent not victimizing myself, or pushing my own needs aside, trying to suppress my anger because my anger was threatening to reconciling? Ugh. I should have tried this hard to fall out of love with him a long, long time ago. I’d also like to point something out. About “abandonment” wounds. My EX actually abandoned me multiple times - it wasn’t like I was projecting something from my childhood onto him. In fact maybe the opposite, like I gave him way too many chances and was way too forgiving because my dad, flawed as he may be, did and does love me and got better once he went to therapy. So yeah, my ex quite literally abandoned me on multiple occasions, but I ALWAYS went back hoping that we could clear the debris, but then he always exhibited far less understanding toward my anxiety than I did toward his avoidance when we would try to reconcile. He probably thinks he’s a victim. In fact, he verbatim said this when he broke up with me in therapy. He’s NOT. Sure, I have done him wrong in the past, but I apologized. I owned it and took responsibility and promised to do better. There are so many examples of how he is not a victim at all. When he broke his leg when we were not officially together I travelled to his apartment and cleaned it up and took care of him for the weekend. I gave him advice when dealing with his friends or coworkers which he appreciated bc he wasn’t able to understand what was going on with empathy but I was. Regarding his fear of engulfment, I did understand it but also had my own needs, but always ended up having to give in to his fear of engulfment, because it didn’t budge...even though it was sooooo unreasonable at times, and/or he wouldn’t communicate about it at all. I think I may start a thread soon just urging people to vocalize their anger toward their exes instead of just understanding them.
ONE more thing - I know there are avoidants on this forum, and they should be commended. Being aware and wanting to get better already puts you in a different class/stage whatever than my ex so please don't personalize how angry I am at HIM. ...But have you recognized how many of the avoidants on this page, and on pages seeking help in general, are FEMALE? I see practically no dismissive avoidant males on this forum. This does not surprise me in the slightest. There was this op/ed recently on lifehacker that goes into the cultural reasons why men are resistant to go to therapy - lifehacker.com/why-men-resist-going-to-therapy-and-why-we-shouldnt-1846328708?utm_source=pocket-newtab. |
|
. In fact, this last reconciliation attempt happened after he read a book I sent to him (Jeb's book), 9 months after the previous break-up...and lo and behold, he was, truly, responsive. It's this kind of thing that ends up serving as intermittent reinforcement, right? Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.