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Post by alexandra on Feb 19, 2021 22:55:01 GMT
I'm doing this because I feel the need to understand if I was just acting out of my anxious-preoccupiedness or if it was legitimate love and friendship that kept me coming back. Why can't it have been both? |
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Post by doctora on Feb 19, 2021 22:57:03 GMT
Try to let go of "should," and be curious about the experience of other people. Listen to what they say they feel instead of falling into "shoulds." And if you want someone who matches your mindset and experiences and expresses love similarly, if you're looking for that in a partner, that's perfectly fine. But don't expect or impose that on someone who doesn't share your mindset from the start. Then you're pushing a square peg into a smaller round hole, and no one will be happy or comfortable being open and vulnerable, feeling safe enough to authentically express themselves. alexandra...I got you, I might not have made it clear, but the thing is, I've been letting go of "should" for 9 years. It's allowed me to be a little too open to how people can be flawed and have different ways of feeling love. It's allowed me to put up with mistreatment. So, yeah, I get the whole being wired differently. But at the end of the day, love is wiring. |
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Post by alexandra on Feb 19, 2021 23:03:23 GMT
doctora, letting go of should doesn't mean putting up with poor treatment. It means quickly recognizing when something is incompatible due to differences while not taking it personally. Chalking it up to there being differences of opinion and perspective, which is incompatible yet still neutral and nothing personal, and seeing that as enough to merit walking away. You know what you're looking for, so that should give you a good starting point from deciding if something is a f*ck yes, or a no, without struggling through trying to get someone to change to meet you where you're at.
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Post by doctora on Feb 19, 2021 23:03:38 GMT
doctora , I'm glad you're feeling like you've pushed through into actually starting a real mourning process. That's one step closer to you eventually feeling better about this and finding a better situation that meets your needs. I know you're venting, but the one thing that stands out to me in what you wrote is you're very insistent in how other people should love (and think and feel and act), and that it should be in a way that's similar to your experience. It helped me move forward, be more fair, and give other people more space to be and show me who they are (which creates stronger mutual acceptance) to deeply understand that there truly are different mindsets and perspectives and different ways and experiences in loving people. All insecure attachment types, not just avoidants, struggle with love because the attachment wounding adds so many layers to any romantic interaction. It's just as much about the insecure attacher's projections, how their nervous systems were wired earlier in life to accept and receive love both from others and in terms of having self-love, and getting self-centered when triggered into their own defense mechanisms (whether that's anxious or avoidant)... as it is about clearly seeing the other person. Because of the insecure attacher's relationship with themselves, they often can't see the other person entirely clearly without merging their identities in at least some way. Try to let go of "should," and be curious about the experience of other people. Listen to what they say they feel instead of falling into "shoulds." And if you want someone who matches your mindset and experiences and expresses love similarly, if you're looking for that in a partner, that's perfectly fine. But don't expect or impose that on someone who doesn't share your mindset from the start. Then you're pushing a square peg into a smaller round hole, and no one will be happy or comfortable being open and vulnerable, feeling safe enough to authentically express themselves. alexandra ...sorry I had to go back because I actually didn't really understand what you were saying. I'm not sure where in my venting you got the idea that I think someone "should" be at all similar to me? What part are you talking about? I said that I think I should be the phantom ex to my ex, because that's the only thing that makes sense to me. I don't think one should love someone in the same way at all...I don't expect that. When I went back to therapy with my ex this last time I did so after having full, robust understanding of insecure attachment. So I'm not sure what you're trying to say.  Sorry?? Also, I don't think he was not happy or comfortable being open and vulnerable, feeling safe enough to authentically express themselves because I was expecting him to be different, because I was making PLENTY of allowances for him to be avoidant, especially in this last reconciliation attempt. I think he was not happy to do so because he's avoidant, in spite of how accepting I was. Ya dig? |
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Post by doctora on Feb 19, 2021 23:07:03 GMT
doctora , letting go of should doesn't mean putting up with poor treatment. It means quickly recognizing when something is incompatible due to differences while not taking it personally. Chalking it up to there being differences of opinion and perspective, which is incompatible yet still neutral and nothing personal, and seeing that as enough to merit walking away. You know what you're looking for, so that should give you a good starting point from deciding if something is a f*ck yes, or a no, without struggling through trying to get someone to change to meet you where you're at. Sorry, alexandra, I don't get what you're trying to explain to me, or which part of my venting rubbed you the wrong way. When I express opinions or feelings about my relationship with my ex, that's just about me and my ex. My ex's opinions and perspectives wasn't neutral, he was fucked up, almost objectively speaking. He was very dismissive avoidant...and toward the end seemed to acknowledge that. |
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Post by alexandra on Feb 19, 2021 23:17:32 GMT
alexandra...sorry I had to go back because I actually didn't really understand what you were saying. I'm not sure where in my venting you got the idea that I think someone "should" be at all similar to me? What part are you talking about? I said that I think I should be the phantom ex to my ex, because that's the only thing that makes sense to me. I don't think one should love someone in the same way at all...I don't expect that. When I went back to therapy with my ex this last time I did so after having full, robust understanding of insecure attachment. So I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Sorry?? This: "So many times, when reading about avoidants, it's phrased like, "they are scared of receiving love" or "they want love but can't tolerate it." Ummm...what?? When you love someone you GIVE love to them, even if its done in an imperfect way, and you do it whether it's scary or not to receive it because you can't help it. You miss them when they're gone and want to talk to them and kind of always have them on a bit of a pedestal even if you are mad at them or hate them for a moment." That's what works for you, and what you expect. It's not how everyone is. But you're frustrated if you want your version of love out of someone who can't give it to you because they experience it differently. If someone does love differently than you and they can't do it compatibility with your expectations, walk away. For example, I disagree with you that you give love because you can't help it, and that you always have your romantic partner on a little bit of a pedestal. Some people literally can't give love because they don't know how. And I don't have my partner on a pedestal... I like him and choose to prioritize him. That doesn't change if he's being annoying in a specific moment because I have object constancy. It sounds more like you're trying to describe what makes you feel love, but in your posts you're actually projecting it onto the other person as it should be their experience of love. And when there's a mismatch, it's frustrating you. |
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Post by doctora on Feb 19, 2021 23:27:11 GMT
alexandra ...sorry I had to go back because I actually didn't really understand what you were saying. I'm not sure where in my venting you got the idea that I think someone "should" be at all similar to me? What part are you talking about? I said that I think I should be the phantom ex to my ex, because that's the only thing that makes sense to me. I don't think one should love someone in the same way at all...I don't expect that. When I went back to therapy with my ex this last time I did so after having full, robust understanding of insecure attachment. So I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Sorry?? This: "So many times, when reading about avoidants, it's phrased like, "they are scared of receiving love" or "they want love but can't tolerate it." Ummm...what?? When you love someone you GIVE love to them, even if its done in an imperfect way, and you do it whether it's scary or not to receive it because you can't help it. You miss them when they're gone and want to talk to them and kind of always have them on a bit of a pedestal even if you are mad at them or hate them for a moment." That's what works for you, and what you expect. It's not how everyone is. But you're frustrated if you want your version of love out of someone who can't give it to you because they experience it differently. If someone does love differently than you and they can't do it compatibility with your expectations, walk away. For example, I disagree with you that you give love because you can't help it, and that you always have your romantic partner on a little bit of a pedestal. Some people literally can't give love because they don't know how. And I don't have my partner on a pedestal... I like him and choose to prioritize him. That doesn't change if he's being annoying in a specific moment because I have object constancy. It sounds more like you're trying to describe what makes you feel love, but in your posts you're actually projecting it onto the other person as it should be their experience of love. And when there's a mismatch, it's frustrating you. alexandra...Ahh...I got you! Sorry, because I was in "venting mode" I may wasn't as articulate as I should have been...at all. Actually, I don't feel that way, that's not how exactly how I receive it. My experience of love is probably more similar to yours, the way you describe it. I actually was listing the ways that I recognized my ex loved me, that intersected with my own. Everything I wrote is what I feel he did that made me think he did love me, despite having avoidant attachment: "when you love someone you GIVE love to them, even if its done in an imperfect way, and you do it whether it's scary or not to receive it because you can't help it. You miss them when they're gone and want to talk to them and kind of always have them on a bit of a pedestal even if you are mad at them or hate them for a moment....I guess what I'm describing is how I sensed our love in my relationship during bad times. What I wrote above was a constant for both of us. So, yeah, I actually was listing the things that my ex did that made me feel that I was loved by him...in his letter to me, you know, he says "i think you're awesome in every way." I do have the sense that I'm always going to be on a pedestal to my ex, not in the bad sense, in the good, loving sense. Where you have a deep liking and admiration of the person that just doesn't go away no matter what happens. I think my ex was limited in his ability to love me in action, but probably did feel love for me. But what I keep getting confused about is, what was that feeling like for him? And, when a lot of time has passed, does he love me enough to find my loss excruciating? So again, I wasn't trying make any kind of point at all, and I can see how the way I phrased it didn't really make sense. I guess what I was trying to say was...I'm trying to be clearer....I guess what I'm confused about is just literally what this love that the avoidant partner has for their anxious partner actually is. When do they feel it? How does it manifest for them? Also, that's why I said you give love even if its imperfect....I guess I literally was trying to say, yes, i think an avoidant person can love you, and they can show it in imperfect ways, just like anyone....but at the end of the day, if they are able to stay away from you forever, then how much did they really love you? I'm basically trying to pump myself up for my ex not coming back to me. It's easier for me to deal with this when I think that he doesn't love me. That makes it less of a sad story for me. |
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Post by alexandra on Feb 19, 2021 23:36:31 GMT
Okay, it was just meant as food for thought either way but thanks for clearing it up.
"when a lot of time has passed, does he love me enough to find my loss excruciating?"
As long as he stays avoidant, probably not. Because his nervous system will disconnect and numb out the negative feelings to avoid processing them. It's not a conscious thing. He will probably feel the weight of all the burden being avoidant has caused him over time, all the things he lost or that didn't work out, and if that weight is eventually heavy enough to be excruciating he may do something about it. But getting stuck on a phantom ex is a way to avoid the underlying pain, because you stay too surface level in "identifying" the problem to actually fix anything. Ie, 'I'm sad and after having some distance I miss my ex who was always there for me so them moving on must be the problem...' rather than, 'I'm sad because I don't think I deserve love because I was neglected as a child, a problem that played out yet again in my ruined relationship with my ex.' It deflects the blame and allows avoidance of the core and more painful issue.
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Post by alexandra on Feb 19, 2021 23:39:29 GMT
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Post by doctora on Feb 19, 2021 23:47:39 GMT
Okay, it was just meant as food for thought either way but thanks for clearing it up. "when a lot of time has passed, does he love me enough to find my loss excruciating?" As long as he stays avoidant, probably not. Because his nervous system will disconnect and numb out the negative feelings to avoid processing them. It's not a conscious thing. He will probably feel the weight of all the burden being avoidant has caused him over time, all the things he lost or that didn't work out, and if that weight is eventually heavy enough to be excruciating he may do something about it. But getting stuck on a phantom ex is a way to avoid the underlying pain, because you stay too surface level in "identifying" the problem to actually fix anything. Ie, 'I'm sad and after having some distance I miss my ex who was always there for me so them moving on must be the problem...' rather than, 'I'm sad because I don't think I deserve love because I was neglected as a child, a problem that played out yet again in my ruined relationship with my ex.' It deflects the blame and allows avoidance of the core and more painful issue. alexandra ....and this is what's the weird part. I think he cares more about dealing with the core issue by himself (he started individual therapy, I think, after he broke up with me) than with working it out with me. Which, I actually don't think is a bad thing. He recognized he was a DA before we went to therapy last time, but when it got too intense in couples therapy, he didn't deny that he was a DA. He actually said at the breakup session, "I am going to start seeing a therapist for myself." In a way, I'm glad we got this far this last time, because at least he found out about attachment theory, and the whole avoidant thing. Before, he literally had no idea. Now, at least, if he does come back, I think it'll have a higher chance of success because 1) he would have actually addressed the avoidant thing by himself and 2) he would have come back completely unprompted by me. However, I'm scared that he will come back and want to work on it when I'm like, married and pregnant with someone else's kid. I just....I just don't want a sad ending. If he doesn't love me, it's not as sad. Not to mention that even if I'm not married or pregnant, I don't see how I would be able to trust him and take him back even if he totally is genuine. It would be so much work. One part of me is scared, but also, relieved, by the notion of him actually not loving me anymore and staying away. At least it wouldn't be as sad. |
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Post by alexandra on Feb 20, 2021 0:06:02 GMT
doctora, I was in love with my FA ex for years. He was a disaster and didn't treat me well. He's moved on and so have I... if he came back now when I'm in another relationship, I'd feel sorry for him but would in no way want any part of it because I'm happy where I am. If you're married and pregnant, you'll likely be over the romantic part of this and it's not going to threaten or overwhelm your relationship. I know you're scanning for threats and doing scenario planning, but try to stay present instead and deal with processing what's in front of you. I found that incredibly difficult while AP, being present instead of overly past or future-thinking, but it's worth exploring and working on. It was something else super helpful to my healing and earning secure process, in part because it allows you to process instead of jumping into scenarios/fantasies that disconnect you from the pain of now.
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Post by doctora on Feb 20, 2021 0:45:51 GMT
That's so true. It also is something I have zero control over. Well, I actually do have control over the moving on to another partner part, and that's part of what's been holding me back. I've been so unable to attach to someone in that deep, you're-my-family way because that space was occupied. You're right, I need to be present and continue to process this and grieve. If I do that, I think I'll move on naturally, probably gradually.
Were you totally over your ex when you met your current partner?
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Post by alexandra on Feb 20, 2021 1:34:34 GMT
Yes. I waited to date again until I had let go hope of the FA relationship working out because he showed me over and over he wasn't going to put in the effort to work out his stuff on anything that resembled my timeline. I forced it to sink in though, stopped looking for signs of hope in his inconsistency, and mourned it for a few months. Really made the decision, took responsible for the choice, that I was done feeling terrible all the time and needed to accept the situation if I truly ever wanted a healthy relationship (and enough time to start a family). I met someone about 7 months later when I wasn't 100% over it but wasn't longing for my ex or anything, and that was sufficient to be open to things progressing for real with someone new. But that guy wasn't interested in dating me seriously so we ended it after 3 months. And after, that I felt very ready for a serious relationship and was fully emotionally available for one. Still took time to find the right person, of course. But I did the hard work to get myself emotionally healthy and past all my anxious/avoidant life drama first. I wrote about it in detail here: jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1723/trying-date-first-earned-secure |
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Post by anne12 on Feb 20, 2021 2:49:08 GMT
doctora I can see that you are venting, but you can actually "vent" in a more powerfull way. Have you seen this post ? How to transform anger into life-energy so that you can get back into your own power. Aps always have to work with anger... Its a process You can use as a detox 5-10 minutters every day for 30 Days. This connects to your unconcious. It can also help you to land your nerveussystem. Be precise, concrete, Be carefull that you do not talk as a victim. Do not Make assumptions, because this puts you in the victim role. You cant REALLY know what the other was thinking, why the other person did, what her/she did. (APs can have a tendency to be in the victimrole, where you think that everything is just happening to you, and you are making things up, and that you do not have a choise) Its a natural thing to get angry, when we do not get our needs met, when we thought that we were going to grow old together, or when we are getting our boundaries crossed, when we dont feel respected ect. You can combine this with some SE anger/boundarie tools. jebkinnisonforum.com/post/39966/The cool girl, premature forgiveness, spirituel bypassing ect. ect. jebkinnisonforum.com/post/40270/If you have got ex-partners you don't have peace with, that is that you: - miss - hate - is angry with (maybe without knowing this or not noticing it) - or that the person has broken your confidence or self-esteem/self-worth - Ect. Then love is not just around the corner. It's not fair, but that's the way it is. It is also difficult to move on and go into a new relationship if you are walking around with a broken heart jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1169/healing-broken-before-changing-partnerAn interesting thing is also when the ap is with someone who is avaliable and who wants to give and show them their love, the APs NO can come up. Recieving can trigger the APs threat of abandoment and the fear can come up to the surface. (Often around two years into the relaionship, when attatcment kicks in) jebkinnisonforum.com/post/23503/jebkinnisonforum.com/post/23698/
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simon
New Member
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Post by simon on Feb 21, 2021 13:02:33 GMT
Doctora, I am glad you found my post helpful... and yes I do get it, because I went through the same process a year ago. ;-) Also, something I noticed... is that after much time with a person like this, we change our communication style and start walking on eggshells, we are taught by them that we can't be open and honest and direct, that we are limited on what we can say or they will shut down and disconnect. So, our smart mind knows that in order to get a point across to them, we FIRST have to submit to their fragility and take on more responsibility than we should, just to set the scene. It's "fawning" and it is sick, in the way that we are unconsciously "trained" to communicate this way. So yes, I caught myself doing this... because I so badly wanted THEM to see how THEY had fucked up, which was also a method for ME taking back MY power and self-worth, and setting a healthy boundary, and being true to my inner child after all the blame shifting and gas-lighting. But HERE is the fucked up part, is that I KNEW that in order for me to get across my point, I would first have to "submit" and play nice to open up the doors for listening. And once I realized that pattern, and how screwed up it was, I decided to not even TRY to get them to see my side. Because it is a power play, and unhealthy, and that there really was no point. And so I realized all that really mattered was that "I" knew the truth, and to just be content and confident in that, and to totally let go of what they thought, or saw, or understood, or didn't see, or didn't understand. I woke up one day and said "fuck it... I know who I am and I deserve better". No offense, but (to Alex's point) it still seems with the "should" mindset (I also felt it in your post) that you are like "But THEY should love this way, too!!!!!"... but guess what, they don't. So stop wanting them to see it and understand it and get it. This need for them to see it is within YOU, and it is unhealthy. You likely will NOT get the closure that you seek, so you must get it inside yourself. Because really, the reason you want them to get it... is because you haven't accepted reality and given up hope yet, and because you want them to "validate" YOUR experience and pain and you're being RIGHT in your way of loving and how people SHOULD love. But that can ONLY come from within one place, from within YOU. This is part of you rebuilding your core self and core beliefs and values that were gaslighted and minimized for so long. Trust me, there ARE other people out there that DO love the way you think they "should". Something else, with a core wound of shame, a DA or FA that really starts to understand attachment wounds and awareness is going to start freaking out, as those shadow elements come up into their conscious awareness. So the irony, is that as they start to really see these things, their shame gets activated even more, and they will want to either stop therapy or go "solo" because they don't want YOU or anyone else to see how bad things are. So while YOU understand healing and repair as a "system" of 2 people, they do not... they go solo and isolate the more the shame is activated. His pattern is quite unsurprising. They are NOT "you"... they do not see and feel and activate and seek repair as YOU do... so whether or not they "should", please change your mindset to understand that they just do not, and are wired very differently. Once you accept this, you will bring much ease into your life. And if you really want to understand THEIR side... then read this entire page, it is very insightful: www.freetoattach.com/breakupsI feel your pain, it's a mindfuck to repair all the things that were minimized and devalued in yourself. Get back in touch with those core values that are healthy, and don't ever settle. THAT is your lesson and gift, and sets you up to find a healthy relationship, without all the pain. |
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Sorry?? 