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Post by tnr9 on Feb 17, 2021 11:21:31 GMT
Maybe it is time to stop asking her since she keeps giving you the same answer and instead figure out if you are ok to stay in limbo with her for an undetermined amount of time. I give myself 2-3 months. If nothing happens then I will have to rip my heart out. So.....now that you feel calmer...I would suggest you go back to working on your anxious behaviors. The fact that you have only been on this medication for 1 day and still felt the desire to ask her if she is willing to give the relationship another try indicates that you are still stuck in an AP loop of seeking a different answer. What if I do this...what if I do that.....believe me, I have been there. But it doesn’t work because it feels manipulative and needy to the avoidant who senses you are not honoring what he/she said about needing time. Believe me...if she changes her mind...she will let you know.....but right now, you have a friendship and nothing more. So if you are ok with a friendship...great...if not....you may want to re evaluate your timeline above. I was madly in love with B and tried for over a year to win him back after he broke up with me....he would come over and we would hang out and watch movies etc. His actions and words sometimes did not match up and that gave me “hope”....but it also kept me “stuck” because again, I was allowing him to determine what kind of relationship he and I had...even though I knew I could not just be friends. Had I really thought things through, I should have made a clean break to let my heart heal and work on me.
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Post by Helsbells on Feb 17, 2021 17:02:06 GMT
Perhaps now you feel calmer you shouldn't be thinking of giving her 2 to 3 months you should actually be focusing on healing yourself. Why not turn things around 360 and step away from all this toxic shit of I dont want to be with you, yet I will still keep you on the back boiler. Have you read through others post to see how damaging being with a Da can do to you. Skrew giving it 2 or 3 months to see if she will make her mind up. Whilst your feeling calmer start something new for yourself strike whilst the irons hot. Dont give any new found energy or calmness to this relationship. Make yourself attractive and appealing again either to her yourself or someone else. Shes messing with your mind so much that maybe you've attracted another narc.....do you seriously want to go back down that road again. If your new meds are already working dont waste it, use it to better yourself and you might be surprised at the results...just saying x
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Post by dullboat123 on Mar 2, 2021 3:48:34 GMT
I give myself 2-3 months. If nothing happens then I will have to rip my heart out. So.....now that you feel calmer...I would suggest you go back to working on your anxious behaviors. The fact that you have only been on this medication for 1 day and still felt the desire to ask her if she is willing to give the relationship another try indicates that you are still stuck in an AP loop of seeking a different answer. What if I do this...what if I do that.....believe me, I have been there. But it doesn’t work because it feels manipulative and needy to the avoidant who senses you are not honoring what he/she said about needing time. Believe me...if she changes her mind...she will let you know.....but right now, you have a friendship and nothing more. So if you are ok with a friendship...great...if not....you may want to re evaluate your timeline above. I was madly in love with B and tried for over a year to win him back after he broke up with me....he would come over and we would hang out and watch movies etc. His actions and words sometimes did not match up and that gave me “hope”....but it also kept me “stuck” because again, I was allowing him to determine what kind of relationship he and I had...even though I knew I could not just be friends. Had I really thought things through, I should have made a clean break to let my heart heal and work on me. Ok now she is re-engaging me citing that she is trying her best to salvage the relationship. She even went to the extent of planning our future in terms of moving to another country with me to work and start a family closer to my parents. So now she is back to seeing me regularly (still no sex, not even wanting to kiss me on the lips) to try to fix things. However she still can't verbally tells me she loves me, though she made the commitment that she will not get involved with anyone else. So yes it sounds exactly like your scenario but why "future fake" from her? Did your ex do that or basically just stay silent in the status quo? She made it sound all so promising but while still keeping an arm's length.
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Post by alexandra on Mar 2, 2021 5:26:38 GMT
dullboat123, you may need to come to terms with the fact that what you're getting from her is all she can give. FA both want and fear relationships, and seek comfort but also fear attachment figures (due to childhood trauma). So in order to stay in a relationship, they need to feel they have one foot out and aren't TOO close or their nervous systems get overwhelmed and shut down. I have no doubt she cares about you and is trying and doesn't even think she is future faking... but that doesn't change the fact that neither of you may be in a healthy enough place for a healthy and whole romantic relationship.
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Post by dullboat123 on May 10, 2021 4:42:19 GMT
Update: Annnnnd just like that, just like all of you had predicted, its over. I've wasted 10 months of my precious early 40s life on this dud. I should've listened to you guys. I should've walked away sooner. But no, I stupidly hung onto her lies and fake promises of moving in, having a child, getting married in my home country, having......a future.
And just like that, she dropped me like I am worthless, over text. I didn't even get a face to face break up. Not even when we both returned our personal effects.
In the end, when she finally gave me closure, all the fault is on me. She is completely and absolutely blameless. My reaching out for assurance for her lack of, was seen as harassment and detrimental to her mental health and not respecting her boundaries (or should I call walls?). Even though everybody can see her depressive episodes are getting more frequent and worsening, she refused help (typical avoidant). She refused to go on meds. I begged her to at least reach out to a professional just to talk, she did nothing. And I'm the one who spent thousands on therapy and meds.
Yet in the end, the fault is solely mine. My last message to her was begging her to go seek help and that I am not to blame completely for her mental health deteriorating (her uni, her work, her finances, her friends, her family all contributed to her stress). All I got was "Thank you for reinforcing that leaving you is the best decision.".
I no longer want her back because I now know it will never work - after being strung along for 2-3 months of sweetness but with her still "not ready for relationship" or "not comfortable" spending a night at my place. Even though she is adamant that she is not stringing me along, her actions says otherwise.
Never again will I ever get involved with an avoidant. The damage of this one is lifelong and is enough. Thank you all so much for giving me the support, which I regrettably ignored. I am sorry but am very grateful for the support I got from all of you.
P.S from personal experience and also from testimonials from many many forum members, those who are struggling with the on-off cycle with an avoidant, please don't bother. Avoidants are extremely sensitive people and once you fall from grace in their minds, which you inevitably will, they will mentally start to destroy you and rip your perfect image that they have of you to shreds. There is no way of getting that image back because we are all humans and it is not possible to maintain that perfect mental image they have of you. No relationship is perfect. Even a small disagreement can make an avoidant rip their image of you to irreparable bits. So please, love yourself. Don't waste your time and energy with them. You deserve so much better and more.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 12:37:52 GMT
Update: Annnnnd just like that, just like all of you had predicted, its over. I've wasted 10 months of my precious early 40s life on this dud. I should've listened to you guys. I should've walked away sooner. But no, I stupidly hung onto her lies and fake promises of moving in, having a child, getting married in my home country, having......a future. And just like that, she dropped me like I am worthless, over text. I didn't even get a face to face break up. Not even when we both returned our personal effects. In the end, when she finally gave me closure, all the fault is on me. She is completely and absolutely blameless. My reaching out for assurance for her lack of, was seen as harassment and detrimental to her mental health and not respecting her boundaries (or should I call walls?). Even though everybody can see her depressive episodes are getting more frequent and worsening, she refused help (typical avoidant). She refused to go on meds. I begged her to at least reach out to a professional just to talk, she did nothing. And I'm the one who spent thousands on therapy and meds. Yet in the end, the fault is solely mine. My last message to her was begging her to go seek help and that I am not to blame completely for her mental health deteriorating (her uni, her work, her finances, her friends, her family all contributed to her stress). All I got was "Thank you for reinforcing that leaving you is the best decision.". I no longer want her back because I now know it will never work - after being strung along for 2-3 months of sweetness but with her still "not ready for relationship" or "not comfortable" spending a night at my place. Even though she is adamant that she is not stringing me along, her actions says otherwise. Never again will I ever get involved with an avoidant. The damage of this one is lifelong and is enough. Thank you all so much for giving me the support, which I regrettably ignored. I am sorry but am very grateful for the support I got from all of you. P.S from personal experience and also from testimonials from many many forum members, those who are struggling with the on-off cycle with an avoidant, please don't bother. Avoidants are extremely sensitive people and once you fall from grace in their minds, which you inevitably will, they will mentally start to destroy you and rip your perfect image that they have of you to shreds. There is no way of getting that image back because we are all humans and it is not possible to maintain that perfect mental image they have of you. No relationship is perfect. Even a small disagreement can make an avoidant rip their image of you to irreparable bits. So please, love yourself. Don't waste your time and energy with them. You deserve so much better and more. I'm sorry you're hurting, and your anger shows. It's understandable! But, you'd be more wise to focus on your own issues rather than rip her (and avoidants) apart here. Do you see that you are doing what you accuse her of? You had such a rosy view of her that you wanted to marry her and have children, and you pursued her anxiously to no avail. And now, you are here tearing her (and avoidants) down. You are the other side of the insecure coin, and that's not a harsh judgement and it's not hateful. It's just true that you suffer because of your own insecurity that has you chasing another insecure person. I hope you will see this for what it is. You beat yourself and her together in one post. This is painful and your attachment issues aren't your fault (people have been gracious to me here, when I've felt pretty bad about my own self). Do be careful about descending into a bitter pit of blame and external focus because it won't help you one bit, it will only drive you further into your own dysfunction. We all have struggles. I hope you can find your answers. I just wanted to point out that viewing a large percentage of the population as you do doesn't keep you safe, it just gives you an excuse to project and be self righteous. That's not the right direction. Consider this as if it came from an anxious or secure poster, instead of an avoidant. Really! Don't discriminate against me because I'm avoidant, see if you can really see what I'm saying as helpful. I think it's helpful.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 13:21:23 GMT
Also, does it help clarify things for you to see that to date you, she dates her original wound? You display, in your own admission, rage and anger and a lack of empathy. Where do you think attachment wounding comes from? If you are lucky that she hasn't pressed charges, don't press your luck. It isn't reasonable to say that the problem begins with her, here. You two trigger each other, it's clear.
All of this is true in reverse as well. You are dating your abandonment. Chasing it to fix it. But that's a disaster. You will have to find another way to take care of your abandonment issues than chasing someone who triggers you and "abandons" you. Someone said that abandonment becomes fiction in adulthood... I agree. It's a story written by the part of you that experienced it as a kid. It's real in childhood and actually manufactured in adulthood. Manufactured by you chasing unavailable partners? Doesn't that make sense?
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Post by dullboat123 on May 10, 2021 23:05:38 GMT
Also, does it help clarify things for you to see that to date you, she dates her original wound? You display, in your own admission, rage and anger and a lack of empathy. Where do you think attachment wounding comes from? If you are lucky that she hasn't pressed charges, don't press your luck. It isn't reasonable to say that the problem begins with her, here. You two trigger each other, it's clear. All of this is true in reverse as well. You are dating your abandonment. Chasing it to fix it. But that's a disaster. You will have to find another way to take care of your abandonment issues than chasing someone who triggers you and "abandons" you. Someone said that abandonment becomes fiction in adulthood... I agree. It's a story written by the part of you that experienced it as a kid. It's real in childhood and actually manufactured in adulthood. Manufactured by you chasing unavailable partners? Doesn't that make sense? I totally understand where you are coming from as an avoidant and feel that you are being criticized and personally targeted from what I said. As Jeb Kinnison pointed out, avoidants are extremely sensitive to criticisms. I am sorry if you feel that way but I am just pointing out the facts and reinforcing Jeb's research with my personal experience. "and you pursued her anxiously to no avail." - please note that over the past year, she had blocked me no less than 5 times for weeks UNTIL she needed me, then she hoover back, get what she wanted and when asked where we are, its always "I'm trying to fix the relationship. I'm not comfortable yet. I'm not ready. Push me and see where that get you.". The thing that is unfair to me in this saga is that I was gaslighted to think that I'm the problem, I'm the bad guy that caused the break up. She puts the blame solely on me even after our couple therapist told her she needed help. I am manipulated to think that my emotional reaction to her abuse are the problem, not the abuse itself - the stonewalling, the silent treatment, the refusal to discuss issues, the constant lies, the stringing along, the emotional manipulation to get me to give her money while her bipolar caused her to spend more than she can afford....... Ever since day 1 I spent money and time to fix my part of the issue and had since improved. She said it herself. However it is still not good enough because SHE DID NOTHING for her deteriorating depression and increasing anxiety despite my pleas for her to at least speak to someone when she completely refuse to go on meds. I guess you can always say that its HER CHOICE whether to seek help or not. And its my fault for chasing to fix it.I guess I deserved to get raped when I was 10 years old too since everything is my fault.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2021 0:58:59 GMT
Also, does it help clarify things for you to see that to date you, she dates her original wound? You display, in your own admission, rage and anger and a lack of empathy. Where do you think attachment wounding comes from? If you are lucky that she hasn't pressed charges, don't press your luck. It isn't reasonable to say that the problem begins with her, here. You two trigger each other, it's clear. All of this is true in reverse as well. You are dating your abandonment. Chasing it to fix it. But that's a disaster. You will have to find another way to take care of your abandonment issues than chasing someone who triggers you and "abandons" you. Someone said that abandonment becomes fiction in adulthood... I agree. It's a story written by the part of you that experienced it as a kid. It's real in childhood and actually manufactured in adulthood. Manufactured by you chasing unavailable partners? Doesn't that make sense? I totally understand where you are coming from as an avoidant and feel that you are being criticized and personally targeted from what I said. As Jeb Kinnison pointed out, avoidants are extremely sensitive to criticisms. I am sorry if you feel that way but I am just pointing out the facts and reinforcing Jeb's research with my personal experience. "and you pursued her anxiously to no avail." - please note that over the past year, she had blocked me no less than 5 times for weeks UNTIL she needed me, then she hoover back, get what she wanted and when asked where we are, its always "I'm trying to fix the relationship. I'm not comfortable yet. I'm not ready. Push me and see where that get you.". The thing that is unfair to me in this saga is that I was gaslighted to think that I'm the problem, I'm the bad guy that caused the break up. She puts the blame solely on me even after our couple therapist told her she needed help. I am manipulated to think that my emotional reaction to her abuse are the problem, not the abuse itself - the stonewalling, the silent treatment, the refusal to discuss issues, the constant lies, the stringing along, the emotional manipulation to get me to give her money while her bipolar caused her to spend more than she can afford....... Ever since day 1 I spent money and time to fix my part of the issue and had since improved. She said it herself. However it is still not good enough because SHE DID NOTHING for her deteriorating depression and increasing anxiety despite my pleas for her to at least speak to someone when she completely refuse to go on meds. I guess you can always say that its HER CHOICE whether to seek help or not. And its my fault for chasing to fix it.I guess I deserved to get raped when I was 10 years old too since everything is my fault. thank I think you are misinterpreting my inner state here, I really don't feel personally targeted. Rather, I align with what I said. I'd add to it but don't feel the need to defend myself or complicate the situation. My suggestions weren't helpful to you and I respect that. I hope that you find relief in whatever route to wholeness that you choose.
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Post by tnr9 on May 11, 2021 11:09:35 GMT
Also, does it help clarify things for you to see that to date you, she dates her original wound? You display, in your own admission, rage and anger and a lack of empathy. Where do you think attachment wounding comes from? If you are lucky that she hasn't pressed charges, don't press your luck. It isn't reasonable to say that the problem begins with her, here. You two trigger each other, it's clear. All of this is true in reverse as well. You are dating your abandonment. Chasing it to fix it. But that's a disaster. You will have to find another way to take care of your abandonment issues than chasing someone who triggers you and "abandons" you. Someone said that abandonment becomes fiction in adulthood... I agree. It's a story written by the part of you that experienced it as a kid. It's real in childhood and actually manufactured in adulthood. Manufactured by you chasing unavailable partners? Doesn't that make sense? I totally understand where you are coming from as an avoidant and feel that you are being criticized and personally targeted from what I said. As Jeb Kinnison pointed out, avoidants are extremely sensitive to criticisms. I am sorry if you feel that way but I am just pointing out the facts and reinforcing Jeb's research with my personal experience. "and you pursued her anxiously to no avail." - please note that over the past year, she had blocked me no less than 5 times for weeks UNTIL she needed me, then she hoover back, get what she wanted and when asked where we are, its always "I'm trying to fix the relationship. I'm not comfortable yet. I'm not ready. Push me and see where that get you.". The thing that is unfair to me in this saga is that I was gaslighted to think that I'm the problem, I'm the bad guy that caused the break up. She puts the blame solely on me even after our couple therapist told her she needed help. I am manipulated to think that my emotional reaction to her abuse are the problem, not the abuse itself - the stonewalling, the silent treatment, the refusal to discuss issues, the constant lies, the stringing along, the emotional manipulation to get me to give her money while her bipolar caused her to spend more than she can afford....... Ever since day 1 I spent money and time to fix my part of the issue and had since improved. She said it herself. However it is still not good enough because SHE DID NOTHING for her deteriorating depression and increasing anxiety despite my pleas for her to at least speak to someone when she completely refuse to go on meds. I guess you can always say that its HER CHOICE whether to seek help or not. And its my fault for chasing to fix it.I guess I deserved to get raped when I was 10 years old too since everything is my fault. I know you are angry and you are hurt...perhaps now is not the time for people to comment on the situation but rather, just let you vent a bit. Have you met with your therapist since the break up? Also, I recall your therapist had prescribed some medication...is that helping?
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Post by dullboat123 on May 11, 2021 23:00:57 GMT
I know you are angry and you are hurt...perhaps now is not the time for people to comment on the situation but rather, just let you vent a bit. Have you met with your therapist since the break up? Also, I recall your therapist had prescribed some medication...is that helping? I guess I am a bit angry (being gaslighted and strung along) but more relieved now that I see it for what it is. I was merely reacting to her abuse and she used that reaction against me without any admission of her own guilt whatsoever. That reeks of my narcissistic ex wife. I now do not want her back because its like a switch in my brain, where I finally see that even if I am alone, it is better than the mental abuse she put me through. I've been domestically abused for 16 years. I do not want another predator to come along and does the same to me for another 16. Hell no. This forum and also Jeb's work is so valuable to me because this is the second time I've been involved with narcissistic people. Different personalities but the mental abuse is the same. I am now more equipped than ever to identify red flags early in the relationship and protect myself. I guess the DA/FA in here finds my post offensive, which is fair because the truth is harsh but they are AWARE and is improving themselves. Kudos to them. However there will be more unaware FA/DAs out there bringing harm to people. Their withdrawing, push-pull cycle, hot and cold, stringing along and generally mentally abusive ways IS DOMESTIC ABUSE. They are adults. If they do not recognize their abusive ways and seek to change their attachment styles, I have no empathy for them. They do not have the Rights to treat another human being like they do. Having empathy for such people is like me empathizing a wife beater or a rapist. No.
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Post by tnr9 on May 12, 2021 3:26:17 GMT
I guess I am a bit angry (being gaslighted and strung along) but more relieved now that I see it for what it is. I was merely reacting to her abuse and she used that reaction against me without any admission of her own guilt whatsoever. That reeks of my narcissistic ex wife. I now do not want her back because its like a switch in my brain, where I finally see that even if I am alone, it is better than the mental abuse she put me through. I've been domestically abused for 16 years. I do not want another predator to come along and does the same to me for another 16. Hell no. This forum and also Jeb's work is so valuable to me because this is the second time I've been involved with narcissistic people. Different personalities but the mental abuse is the same. I am now more equipped than ever to identify red flags early in the relationship and protect myself. I guess the DA/FA in here finds my post offensive, which is fair because the truth is harsh but they are AWARE and is improving themselves. Kudos to them. However there will be more unaware FA/DAs out there bringing harm to people. Their withdrawing, push-pull cycle, hot and cold, stringing along and generally mentally abusive ways IS DOMESTIC ABUSE. They are adults. If they do not recognize their abusive ways and seek to change their attachment styles, I have no empathy for them. They do not have the Rights to treat another human being like they do. Having empathy for such people is like me empathizing a wife beater or a rapist. No. Sooo...I understand you have strong feelings about the way you were treated...but it isn’t right, nor is it mature to assume that everyone who is DA or FA is like the woman you dated. I dated a full blown NPD and I can tell the difference between NPD and avoidant attachment style (chances are that someone with NPD would not come to this site because that person would not get his/her need for approval met here). Since you are now removed from the situation and can look back on it.....can you pinpoint what it was about her that attracted you to her? Because it sounds like there is a pattern of unhealthy relationships...
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Post by doctora on May 12, 2021 6:44:52 GMT
Also, does it help clarify things for you to see that to date you, she dates her original wound? You display, in your own admission, rage and anger and a lack of empathy. Where do you think attachment wounding comes from? If you are lucky that she hasn't pressed charges, don't press your luck. It isn't reasonable to say that the problem begins with her, here. You two trigger each other, it's clear. All of this is true in reverse as well. You are dating your abandonment. Chasing it to fix it. But that's a disaster. You will have to find another way to take care of your abandonment issues than chasing someone who triggers you and "abandons" you. Someone said that abandonment becomes fiction in adulthood... I agree. It's a story written by the part of you that experienced it as a kid. It's real in childhood and actually manufactured in adulthood. Manufactured by you chasing unavailable partners? Doesn't that make sense? I totally understand where you are coming from as an avoidant and feel that you are being criticized and personally targeted from what I said. As Jeb Kinnison pointed out, avoidants are extremely sensitive to criticisms. I am sorry if you feel that way but I am just pointing out the facts and reinforcing Jeb's research with my personal experience. "and you pursued her anxiously to no avail." - please note that over the past year, she had blocked me no less than 5 times for weeks UNTIL she needed me, then she hoover back, get what she wanted and when asked where we are, its always "I'm trying to fix the relationship. I'm not comfortable yet. I'm not ready. Push me and see where that get you.". The thing that is unfair to me in this saga is that I was gaslighted to think that I'm the problem, I'm the bad guy that caused the break up. She puts the blame solely on me even after our couple therapist told her she needed help. I am manipulated to think that my emotional reaction to her abuse are the problem, not the abuse itself - the stonewalling, the silent treatment, the refusal to discuss issues, the constant lies, the stringing along, the emotional manipulation to get me to give her money while her bipolar caused her to spend more than she can afford....... Ever since day 1 I spent money and time to fix my part of the issue and had since improved. She said it herself. However it is still not good enough because SHE DID NOTHING for her deteriorating depression and increasing anxiety despite my pleas for her to at least speak to someone when she completely refuse to go on meds. I guess you can always say that its HER CHOICE whether to seek help or not. And its my fault for chasing to fix it.I guess I deserved to get raped when I was 10 years old too since everything is my fault. ugh....AMEN brother. 90% of the time I like the advice on this forum, but for some reason people do not understand HOW BAD extreme avoidants are. Probably because their avoidants weren't as extreme as ours. After all, it's a spectrum and not all DAs/FAs are highly avoidant to the point where the behavior starts to blur with narcissistic abuse. (And no, not all extreme DAs are personality disordered narcissists, I'm not saying that....I'm saying the behaviors/deactivations can feel so fucked up that it's comparable to narcissistic abuse, and the effect can be similar). Concentrating on how angry you are is NOT THE SAME THING as not owning your anxious behavior. I completely, completely disagree with people that being angry at the avoidant is somehow avoiding your own issues...it's the goddamn opposite, after so much time spent giving them the benefit of the doubt, believing in them...not necessarily bending over backwards, but genuinely loving the person and believing in them. You deserve to be angry right now. I have never seen or heard about a successful relationship with an extreme avoidant. It can only work if they decide to change, because extreme avoidance is simply incompatible with a healthy relationship. In lots of the attachment theory media, it says that anxious-preoccupieds, as long as they aren't highly anxious or borderline, often have successful relationships with secure partners because they actually become more secure with reassurance (again, according to a lot of the A.T. books, and I believe it, and anecdotally I've seen it). However, secures will become more anxious with someone whose default is to be highly avoidant. Apparently, a secure partner could do "better" with an avoidant and also could somehow rub off on them, but Jeb talks about this a bit in his book with some skepticism....I just don't see that happening. There is a very interesting post on this forum explaining the high self esteem of a DA and how they have one person psychological systems that sort of make them more impervious to outside influence. Rather, they have an incredible system of self-reliance and self-validation, which can be good, but when taken to the extreme, it can make them hard-headed and hard to get through to, hard to influence, even if it's for the better. Being in a relationship with someone like that is so difficult. My ex, who was highly avoidant, was definitely influenceable in our honeymoon period, but even then it was still extremely difficult to get him to see my point of view, and often he would end up not changing what we agreed upon when we "resolved" things...it's as if emotional stuff was encoded differently in his head and he would almost "forget" to take what happened into account. He could with repetition and reinforcement from me, but that took a lot of energy and patience...and this is when they're in their LESS avoidant mode because of being in a honeymoon stage. So, again, I think the highly avoidant aren't so easy to have a healthy, equal relationship with...Also, highly avoidant people do not feel comfortable with intimacy....and secure people wouldn't like that once it became clear that that's what it is. They would only "tolerate" that if somehow they've gradually been insidiously pushed into anxious territory.... So yeah, again, I do not know of a successful relationship of a secure partner with a highly avoidant person. You can be mad at yourself as well, but go ahead and be angry at this person who gaslit you, completely demonized YOU in their mind, kicked you off a pedestal and treated you like shit/garbage. @introvert ....I disagree with you. It's not always two people triggering each other equally, it's not always a case of it takes two to tango. You are wrong, I know that from personal experience, and also, I too went to a couple's therapist with my ex, and she was able to bear witness to his/our pattern. Thank god she did, because I do believe that contributed to my being able to walk away with my head held high. I wasn't perfect, but I was generally behaving securely, even when confronted with his deactivating pattern, and as Thais Gibson said, "the needle didn't move." dullboat123 has "rage" and a lack of empathy because this woman has been a total jerk to him for a long time, has devalued him and has messed with his head. Rage is a little strong, rage is a word I typically associated with violence....I think dullboat is pissed off. You're not getting the full picture by reducing this situation to someone dating their abandonment wound, or chasing unavailable partners. Partially correct, maybe, but there's WAY more to it, and you don't do it justice by just calling it an abandonment wound. I agree that the pathology can be traced back to childhood patterns, but it's not always a subconscious familiarity with being "abandoned"...it can also be that a child felt responsible for their parents in FEAR of being abandoned, but never necessarily was abandoned...it could be that a child was able to get their needs met if they DID something, so they are used to taking on more than their fare share of relationship work. It could also be that the child saw self-destructive behavior from an avoidant parent and wants to protect their loved one from themselves because they have an idea of how the story could end up. Keep in mind, with extreme avoidants, they can be available. They can have moments where they feel and behave less avoidant. The intermittent reinforcement and push-pull is what does the mindfuck to the partner... THAT can also cause primary damage. It's not just that the anxious person is unconsciously seeking out pathological childhood patterns.
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Post by simon on May 12, 2021 9:34:43 GMT
^^^Agreed. As a secure that dated a strong FA/DA... my security allowed me to be strong and hope for the best, and give my all to support the person, and nudge them towards growth and therapy. And my hope was "strung along" by their words, the push-pull, the belief that they "wanted better" which they acted like they do, but their unconscious totally blocks them from. I could only take it for so long. I can be with someone if we are growing, if they support a "growth mindset". But if they do not, then I have my standards and healthy boundaries and I am gone.
And this somewhat delineates the difference, in that someone leaning "anxious" still has a growth mindset and a belief system centered around attachment and healing through "togetherness", whereas someone more avoidant typically more has a limited and static mindset, and a belief system of individuality devoid of attachment, and healing/soothing comes from "aloneness", which makes it really hard to grow as couple.
And let's be clear, anger CAN be very healthy... it is a re-collecting of power for the "Self"... re-establishing boundaries, re-focus inward, re-programming all the self-minimization that happened over years of self-sacrifice in order to please the other, which was typically too far and in an unhealthy amount. So that power and control needs to be taken back, and anger is full of great energy to do that.
NO, it's not healthy to rage or hold onto it forever, nor is "blame" and being a constant victim healthy... but there are healthy amounts and uses for anger, especially typical to reform and strengthen boundaries and Self after forms of abuse and trauma.
edit: and I will say dullboat, that I do sense a lot of anger from you, and I think there is some blaming and venting, and that you have more work to do on yourself to cure the more anxious and co-dependent attributes, as well as likely re-triggering of your ex-narc wife behavior, but overall I think your posts have a lot of self-awareness and responsibility and you're on the right track.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2021 12:29:54 GMT
It's ok if we disagree, I don't disagree that extreme avoidance is a majorly dysfunctional and harmful relationship pattern. I agree with Jeb that relationships between anxious/avoidant partners are what happens when two dysfunctional people dovetail with each other. Also, my understanding is that childhood trauma, and ongoing abuse, as OP describes, does not create anxious preoccupied attachment, it creates disorganized (FA) attachment. In disorganized attachment you will see the extreme behaviors detailed in this thread, the preoccupation alternating with the deactivation (like a switch, he said). I am not actually here to diagnose, but the threads that are in the general forum describe the origin of FA attachment and it fits OP's situation well, that's all. In fact, it seems clear that trauma does not exist without disorganization. The two go hand in hand because of what happens in the nervous system. There are also markers of extreme emotionality, and self harming behavior. It can be said that these things are a result of being abused, and are... from childhood on. They are also not markers of a secure style, although other posters on this thread may have had a more secure style in relationship to their avoidants. I do not fully trust that the descriptions of the OP are objective, and I'm not calling him a liar. Insecurely attached people don't read others well and also tend to miss their own blind spots. While someone may read his accounts and identify patterns in their own history, that is not to say that this woman is the same as your ex, nor is this poster the same as you. In any case, the feelings of an anxious or FA partner will profoundly color their perspective of others. OP mentions problems that go beyond romantic relationship, into friends and family as well. To me, this indicates further that the issues residing in OP himself are in need of addressing. I wasn't pointing out something novel, OP had this take earlier in the thread as well. This is not a case of trying to blame the victim. I believe OP is very traumatized and needs and deserves support. Because OP had previously had a more self aware perspective (as I read), I didn't know that the response would be as it was, I considered that he would be more open to what I had to say. I was wrong there, and I respectfully bowed out. I validated OP's anger but didn't stay there, is all. And, I don't know that she is a narc at all, nobody here does. OP displays extreme behaviors, too. Based on my thoughts that I've already shared, I would change my assertion that it is abandonment he is dealing with (that's there too) and broaden it to include severe trauma. In any case, I think it's most helpful to 1) feel the anger and process it and 2) deal with his own deep issues like the trauma he said he pushed down, and 3) in time his perspective about others may become more balanced (I agree it's not healthy or mature to paint all avoidants the same color as his narcissistic ex. My point is not to provoke anger or hurt in either the OP or other posters. And so, I apologize if I have caused distress. My perspective is simply different, and I have a lot of personal experience with avoidants and am one myself. None entail abuse. I've known narcs, they are abusive. I am sure some extreme DA's are abusive. I also gave experience in my life with very abusive AP/FA styles, I'm not sure which. Abusers come in all styles. Anyway- I digress. I don't want to battle it out over this, and it may be that my perspective isn't appreciated or helpful to those participating here. That can easily happen on the internet, and as long as no one is intending and doing aggressive harm to others here, it's fair to disagree and move on. That is what I'll do in this thread, I wish you all the best in your respective endeavors to find peace. EDIT: If you read the entire thread beginning to end, you will see that I echoed OP's original insights that he is triggering her original wounds. He mentioned that in her email to her. Her behaviors are described as loving and rejecting which is classic FA fron what I've read. Please consider OP's own statements and don't attribute these ideas all to the only avoidant participating here (me). Well, tnr9 is also FA/Anxious , but comes from more the anxious perspective. I really don't want a big argument, I do think that some things have been lost or forgotten among the way in this thread.
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