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Post by doctora on Aug 10, 2021 3:10:11 GMT
This might be because avoidants have low trust for pretty much everyone as a default setting. Thus everything is personal. Everything is manipulation. Everyone is trying to hurt or use them. Call it extreme form of cynicism where they simply see the worst in everyone to satisfy their internal narrative of an abyss of hurt. My ex would start to eat diazepam like there is no tomorrow when she was with me as life with me was at it's best - things are stable, we are going back to my country to meet my parents, I am loving, caring, generous, supportive of her in every way.....only to have her say "this is too perfect. It can't be true. I know something will go wrong and people leave me.". I was puzzled because life was really good, we both have our jobs in the pandemic, we are getting closer. There are just nothing that is anxiety inducing and yet her anxiety increased by the day. She blamed it all on the fear of flying (yet she travelled most of Europe. Go figure). Now I know its anxiety rising from not finding a fatal flaw in the relationship. That was the beginning of the end where after the trip home, my mum calling her "daughter" and buying the wedding dress, she came back from the trip and started to withdraw. As she withdrew, my unaware, secure self began to destabilize as I have no idea what is going on. Thinking I am not good enough, I tried and tried while getting more and more anxious. Then she really had something to latch on - that I'm unstable. It may feel familiar not because of faulty traits inherent in everyone you interact with here, but because of your malignant, abusive communication style. Your communication is full of the characteristics of an abuser. The tactics you employ to attempt to silence the voices of those here that you have generalized as sick, incapable people include: Condescension: You're sarcastic, disdainful, and patronizing Circular nonsense: You suggest the "mature" tactic of name calling to deal with disagreement, and when I literally did exactly what you suggested you foolishly attempted to call me out on it, as if you forgot that you just suggesting doing this. Countering: You suggest that everything others contribute here is wrong, and that your generalizations are the only truth in the discussion (generalizations and blanket statements also being a verbal abuse tactic you employ) Criticism: You persistently employ harsh criticism in order to drive home your point, allowing no room for nuance nor alternative explanation, there is no deviation from your blame and shame method of communication It appears that in the face of your incivility, others here have gone to great lengths to remain civil, but behind the scenes the conversation is that you are suspected to be highly disordered. Most won't point you in the direction of considering a personality disorder in yourself because it could be seen as a way to amplify your behavior here instead of mediate it- mainly because you show a stunning lack of self awareness. That, and you turn everything into "There you go, that's an avoidant for you." That alone is a verbal abuse tactic- discounting everything, generalizing, trivializing, it's all there. At any rate, you've managed to erode the quality of the interactions forum with your continuous victim rants. In real life, as on the 'net, people tire of the person who continually nags, complains, attacks. There's little doubt in my mind that you tortured your ex with your onslaughts. You're aggressive, and relentless. Obsessed. It's toxic stuff. No doubt you will attempt to turn this all back on me, but it's no matter. You've been expressing negativity for months here and it isn't likely to change, others here will simply move on. I've done so for the most part but watched this thread a couple days to see if anyone calls you out or if they just stand back. A moderator would be helpful but as it is, we just need to take it or leave it. Not a life-changer. Whoever wrote this, your name was deleted, but let me tell you: you are completely wrong. You are ignorant, you’re victim blaming, you don’t understand what dullboat is talking about, and YOU are abusive in your language. Making accusations. Dullboat has said almost nothing that different than Jeb Kinneson himself. Man, your post made me extremely angry. |
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Post by doctora on Aug 10, 2021 3:12:42 GMT
Thats after being gaslighted and thousands spent on therapy thinking its my fault all the time only to have my psychiatrist and therapist both say there is nothing wrong with me. Which no one here is responsible for. . Completely disagree….he hasn’t insulted anyone in particular….I’ve been reading his posts…he often has to explain why he says something Bc people jump down his throat, so to speak |
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Post by doctora on Aug 10, 2021 3:54:19 GMT
I just read the last part of the thread, and I really feel the need to say something, I’m really pretty upset by what I’m seeing. There are a couple things that I would like to remind everybody of. First of all, Jeb Kinneson does not view avoidants favorably. He himself recommends to not date them actually. For Pete’s sake he has a book called BAD BOYFRIENDS and it urges people to not date avoidants if they aren’t working on themselves seriously. A relationship with an avoidant, especially an extreme one, is impossible. Only if they work on changing themselves can it work! it doesn’t matter if it’s FA or DA (I know trn9 you seem to think DAs can’t cycle, you draw these big differences, but I don’t agree with you….every single avoidant seems to have a different combo of FA/DA and even anxious behaviors depending on the circumstances or where they are emotionally ). But the one thing they have in common is that a healthy relationship is next to impossible unless they are changing or have committed to becoming more aware and doing things differently. I’m really upset that everyone keeps on with this look at your own contributions crap. And I’ll explain why. 1) It is not always a two-way street, relationship dynamics are not always the result of two people. If you disagree I suggest you read more literature about relationships and especially about abusive ones. Sometimes, it is MOSTLY the fault of one of the people, especially if they are so unaware. Is this hard to imagine or something? I mean case in point is that I’ve had healthy relationships with other men but my ex has not had healthy relationships with other women. This is just one small example. 2). I had - and likely dullboat as well - OFTEN examined my own contributions to our relationship problems up and down, left and right, had worked on myself, had improved my own life, my other relationships with family and friends, had examined my own psychological stuff, and I was still mindfucked by my ex. And yes, I had also examined why I kept going back to my ex. I’ve talked about this before but it was a combination of reasons, but it was all based on feelings. The heart is slow to catch up with the brain. Pathological or not, I was very attracted to him and we were both in love for a time, so of course I wanted it to work and I wanted things to change. And most importantly, it seems like we would share a life task together, the creation of a family, and it seems like we were both completely on board. So to keep asking why someone kept going back is pretty tonedeaf. It’s because of the positive things which can be overwhelming. Even my friends and family who were so tired of the “dynamic” and how he would love me then leave me and see me devastated also had hope, because they saw my exes redeeming qualities and they saw that we were uniquely bonded. Even they could tell that we loved each other, and it was clear that the pathology was in his behavior so of course they had hope when it seemed like he was willing to work on that. I want to remind everyone that avoidants, like all people for heavens sake, are all different. Some are worse than others. If you were an avoidant and you were on this forum, you likely are light years ahead of where my ex was. A big part of my “recovery” has been to realize that there was nothing I actually could have done differently to make the relationship better. And this is why I actually think you are victim blaming when you say look at your own contributions. It is one thing to say it’s healthy to examine why you stayed in the relationship for so long. I agree, but this is also only useful to a certain point because we are no longer in a relationship with them so continually thinking about it is the same as ruminating, except with self anger. But it is another thing entirely to say that all relationships are a two way dynamic unequivocally. I can see how the things that Dullboat says about his ex may be triggering to someone who is an avoidant, but just rest assured that you are probably NOT the same level of avoidant or same type as our exes were. dullboat123 is speaking from his own experience and I find the fact that everyone is jumping on him to be just incredibly disturbing. |
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Post by dullboat123 on Aug 10, 2021 4:26:03 GMT
Dullboat has said almost nothing that different than Jeb Kinneson himself. That's what I'm doing all along. By reinforcing Jeb's research with my own personal experience. And here's the kicker, my experience is reinforcing Jeb's findings, but then I'm branded "generalizing". What is Jeb's research then?? |
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Post by dullboat123 on Aug 11, 2021 1:44:02 GMT
I would like to also add that so far, NOT A SINGLE avoidant has the guts or even an iota of awareness to acknowledge that the distancing behaviours of avoidants are toxic, shitty and MENTALLY ABUSIVE to whoever that's on the receiving end.
And for that, yes the avoidants on here are light years ahead of our exes, I'm afraid there are still also light years of work to be done before they can maintain a healthy relationship with anyone on this planet.
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Post by krolle on Aug 11, 2021 2:05:46 GMT
I have several posts where I question the ethics of my behaviour, and feel shame, and take accountability for my actions. Going as far as to not date for several years, partly out of the desire to not hurt anyone anymore. Denying my own needs for intimacy in the process.
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Post by dullboat123 on Aug 11, 2021 2:18:13 GMT
I have several posts where I question the ethics of my behaviour, and feel shame, and take accountability for my actions. Going as far as to not date for several years, partly out of the desire to not hurt anyone anymore. Denying my own needs for intimacy in the process. I applaud you for your bravery and self awareness. I also hope that you are actively going through therapy and be able to lean into your fears and discomfort rather than run away from them. Also the need to learn to have more resilience to criticism and not take everything personally. Not everything is about you - which is a narcissistic trait on it's own. Not everyone on this planet it trying to manipulate you. What I found, on the contrary, most people doesn't manipulate. And communicate, communicate, communicate. Unless you're an X-men, no one can mind read. |
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Post by krolle on Aug 11, 2021 3:09:20 GMT
I have several posts where I question the ethics of my behaviour, and feel shame, and take accountability for my actions. Going as far as to not date for several years, partly out of the desire to not hurt anyone anymore. Denying my own needs for intimacy in the process. I applaud you for your bravery and self awareness. I also hope that you are actively going through therapy and be able to lean into your fears and discomfort rather than run away from them. Also the need to learn to have more resilience to criticism and not take everything personally. Not everything is about you - which is a narcissistic trait on it's own. Not everyone on this planet it trying to manipulate you. What I found, on the contrary, most people doesn't manipulate. And communicate, communicate, communicate. Unless you're an X-men, no one can mind read. Thankyou for the compliment Dullboat. I know its hard for you to give sentiment like that to somebody with an avoidant attachment style. So it is much appreciated. I actually agree with some of the things you have to say on occasion. And I don't doubt you have been hurt badly by your avoidant partner. I have been hurt by avoidant types badly before. Even though I am one. But also by anxious types. And done my own share of doling out the hurt too. The only reason I don't interact with your posts often is not that your feelings arent valid, but because you seem to be bogged down in blame. I am still an infant when it comes to my emotional growth and healing my attachment wounds. But one of the few productive things I have really internalized over the past few years is just how futile blame is when trying to grow. accountability yes, blame, no. I wish you well, and thank you for being ooen minded enough to compliment me. |
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Post by dullboat123 on Aug 11, 2021 6:07:52 GMT
I applaud you for your bravery and self awareness. I also hope that you are actively going through therapy and be able to lean into your fears and discomfort rather than run away from them. Also the need to learn to have more resilience to criticism and not take everything personally. Not everything is about you - which is a narcissistic trait on it's own. Not everyone on this planet it trying to manipulate you. What I found, on the contrary, most people doesn't manipulate. And communicate, communicate, communicate. Unless you're an X-men, no one can mind read. Thankyou for the compliment Dullboat. I know its hard for you to give sentiment like that to somebody with an avoidant attachment style. So it is much appreciated. I actually agree with some of the things you have to say on occasion. And I don't doubt you have been hurt badly by your avoidant partner. I have been hurt by avoidant types badly before. Even though I am one. But also by anxious types. And done my own share of doling out the hurt too. The only reason I don't interact with your posts often is not that your feelings arent valid, but because you seem to be bogged down in blame. I am still an infant when it comes to my emotional growth and healing my attachment wounds. But one of the few productive things I have really internalized over the past few years is just how futile blame is when trying to grow. accountability yes, blame, no. I wish you well, and thank you for being ooen minded enough to compliment me. Ah that's what other people on here didn't understand or try to understand where I am coming from. I don't hate ALL avoidants per se. What grinds doctora's and my gears is that people don't try to understand what we went through and where we are coming from, then apply their blanket "dwell within yourself" rhetoric. We done all we could. Literally all we could. But our exes and their avoidance just keeps changing the goal post, then ditched us, putting the blame solely on us whereby its THEM who did NOTHING to change. Then we come on here, we get the blame again, from avoidants. That's what grinds our gears. |
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Post by krolle on Aug 11, 2021 7:39:48 GMT
Thankyou for the compliment Dullboat. I know its hard for you to give sentiment like that to somebody with an avoidant attachment style. So it is much appreciated. I actually agree with some of the things you have to say on occasion. And I don't doubt you have been hurt badly by your avoidant partner. I have been hurt by avoidant types badly before. Even though I am one. But also by anxious types. And done my own share of doling out the hurt too. The only reason I don't interact with your posts often is not that your feelings arent valid, but because you seem to be bogged down in blame. I am still an infant when it comes to my emotional growth and healing my attachment wounds. But one of the few productive things I have really internalized over the past few years is just how futile blame is when trying to grow. accountability yes, blame, no. I wish you well, and thank you for being ooen minded enough to compliment me. Ah that's what other people on here didn't understand or try to understand where I am coming from. I don't hate ALL avoidants per se. What grinds doctora's and my gears is that people don't try to understand what we went through and where we are coming from, then apply their blanket "dwell within yourself" rhetoric. We done all we could. Literally all we could. But our exes and their avoidance just keeps changing the goal post, then ditched us, putting the blame solely on us whereby its THEM who did NOTHING to change. Then we come on here, we get the blame again, from avoidants. That's what grinds our gears. I can't speak for other people on here, but I totally get where you're coming from. As I hinted at in my last message, I empathize with a lot of your posts. Even if I don't agree that your coping mechanisms are the best for you, I can see the pain you are in and it is completely valid to feel that way after what you have been through. I have felt that same pain you felt. The sudden deactivation of someone you thought you were very close to, the frustration that they just can't understand how much their behaviour hurt you. The relationship that drove me to try understand attachment styles also drove me to the bottom of the bottle for a month to try cope. But that's my issue to confront. Not because I want it to be that way, but because if I don't, nobody else will. I got to a point where I realised blaming her wasn't doing anything to help take away my pain. And that it was just a lot of me wasting my energy. And thirdly that to do those things, she must have been so frightened and in pain herself at some point of her life. I also get very frustrated by the dwell within yourself rhetoric. But I have to admit that part of that is because I'm really just in the begginings of my personal development and confronting my own traumas. And the advice to do that is well intentioned. And very likely told to us because it is genuinely the best, or only option we have in a shitty situation. Even if me and you both struggle to see it that way. |
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Post by alexandra on Aug 11, 2021 9:37:24 GMT
I also get very frustrated by the dwell within yourself rhetoric. But I have to admit that part of that is because I'm really just in the begginings of my personal development and confronting my own traumas. And the advice to do that is well intentioned. And very likely told to us because it is genuinely the best, or only option we have in a shitty situation. Even if me and you both struggle to see it that way. Remember that it's totally normal to resist this advice. It goes against all the conditioning of an insecure attachment style, which was set up to protect you from dealing with the pain of your core wounds. That's why I ran in circles instead for like 20 years until I had a couple of good and deeply personal motivations to finally address things effectively. That's why people get super uncomfortable and try to quit therapy as soon as it starts scratching the surface of those wounds. That's why Neil Strauss was able to write a compelling book (titled The Truth) that's sooooo many pages about him wracking his brain for any other solution. It hurts, put those back in their compartments! But at the same time, if you feel a lack of control, which pretty much all insecure attachers do, the best way to get it is to work with the only thing you can control: yourself. So self is kind of both the issue and the answer. Also note, when I use "you" in these forum responses about broad comments that aren't situation-specific, it's always general you, not you you. |
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Post by tnr9 on Aug 11, 2021 15:22:10 GMT
Ah that's what other people on here didn't understand or try to understand where I am coming from. I don't hate ALL avoidants per se. What grinds doctora's and my gears is that people don't try to understand what we went through and where we are coming from, then apply their blanket "dwell within yourself" rhetoric. We done all we could. Literally all we could. But our exes and their avoidance just keeps changing the goal post, then ditched us, putting the blame solely on us whereby its THEM who did NOTHING to change. Then we come on here, we get the blame again, from avoidants. That's what grinds our gears. I can't speak for other people on here, but I totally get where you're coming from. As I hinted at in my last message, I empathize with a lot of your posts. Even if I don't agree that your coping mechanisms are the best for you, I can see the pain you are in and it is completely valid to feel that way after what you have been through. I have felt that same pain you felt. The sudden deactivation of someone you thought you were very close to, the frustration that they just can't understand how much their behaviour hurt you. The relationship that drove me to try understand attachment styles also drove me to the bottom of the bottle for a month to try cope. But that's my issue to confront. Not because I want it to be that way, but because if I don't, nobody else will. I got to a point where I realised blaming her wasn't doing anything to help take away my pain. And that it was just a lot of me wasting my energy. And thirdly that to do those things, she must have been so frightened and in pain herself at some point of her life. I also get very frustrated by the dwell within yourself rhetoric. But I have to admit that part of that is because I'm really just in the begginings of my personal development and confronting my own traumas. And the advice to do that is well intentioned. And very likely told to us because it is genuinely the best, or only option we have in a shitty situation. Even if me and you both struggle to see it that way. I think what is the important take away is how futile it is to hold onto blame. Blame keeps the focus on the past and on the other person…and….it typically is a tool that deflects from looking at the question….”why did I stay in an unhealthy relationship that was not meeting my needs”…..I had to face up to that myself because I so wanted a different relationship with B then the reality and I kept holding onto promises, and moments instead of facing the entire picture. Also, as I was doing “all I could” to keep the relationship, I was neglecting my own needs by twisting myself into a pretzel to meet what he wanted. It is very easy to turn that anger of neglecting my own needs into anger that B did not do enough…and believe me….I had that anger at him. But my very astute therapist reminded me that it was my responsibility to take care of myself and I needed to look deeper into why I pushed my needs aside based on putting B first. That has opened a door to a ton of false beliefs about myself, relationships and making other people responsible for my needs. It is slow and at times painful work…but I am gaining a strength I never realized I had and an ability to own my side of the fence. |
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Post by dullboat123 on Aug 13, 2021 0:50:11 GMT
I think what is the important take away is how futile it is to hold onto blame. Blame keeps the focus on the past and on the other person…and….it typically is a tool that deflects from looking at the question….”why did I stay in an unhealthy relationship that was not meeting my needs”…..I had to face up to that myself because I so wanted a different relationship with B then the reality and I kept holding onto promises, and moments instead of facing the entire picture. Also, as I was doing “all I could” to keep the relationship, I was neglecting my own needs by twisting myself into a pretzel to meet what he wanted. It is very easy to turn that anger of neglecting my own needs into anger that B did not do enough…and believe me….I had that anger at him. But my very astute therapist reminded me that it was my responsibility to take care of myself and I needed to look deeper into why I pushed my needs aside based on putting B first. That has opened a door to a ton of false beliefs about myself, relationships and making other people responsible for my needs. It is slow and at times painful work…but I am gaining a strength I never realized I had and an ability to own my side of the fence. I agree to a certain extent that it is futile to hold onto blame. However to put things into perspective, if we live in a society without blame......wait, you're not going to take what I say on board anyway. Oh well....lets just agree to disagree. |
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Post by dullboat123 on Aug 13, 2021 1:11:42 GMT
I got to a point where I realised blaming her wasn't doing anything to help take away my pain. And that it was just a lot of me wasting my energy. And thirdly that to do those things, she must have been so frightened and in pain herself at some point of her life. My main frustration came from the constant shifting of goal post, gaslighting and string along, putting me through Hell just to arrive at the inevitable end. I literally did everything I could but it changed nothing because SHE DIDN'T change. Yet all the blame's on me. So when I come on here and have people tell me I need to internalize everything and shift the blame on myself, its a total cop out. Holding onto that blame and anger helps because (1) It helps me get over her quicker as I focus on her shitty behaviours. (2) If I turn the blame onto myself, it puts blinkers on and I will continue to internalize blame when people treats me like shit (3) Self blame isn't healthy. (4) If Internalizing blame changes anything, there won't be any protests or wars that literally changes the course of history. Look at BLM. |
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Post by doctora on Aug 13, 2021 6:05:10 GMT
I think it might be useful to break things down. There are two types of blame we are talking about here, or “accountability”: first, the blame for making the relationship bad, and second, the self-betrayal that you were in such a situation to begin with. I think we can separate those two. I can say pretty confidently that my ex was the more fucked up one, especially toward the end. I did my best and came from a place of understanding and poise and security, generally speaking. I communicated, I understood, I tried to play by the therapists rules, etc. But with the extreme avoidants, if there’s ever a conflict, they will check out…as we all know. They will ditch the process completely and then blame you. This is what dullboat123 and I are talking about… Those types of deactivations are the fatal blow to the relationship, and that stuff is not our fault. It’s IMPOSSIBLE to make it work with someone who can’t stand conflict at all. So in that sense I think it’s OK to put most of the blame on the partner that is more difficult, less cooperative, less tolerant of closeness….because duh! The second type, the one where you “blame” or take ownership of why you stayed with a person who repeatedly hurt you and hurt the relationship…yeah, I welcome that blame, and I imagine dullboat123 does too. This is why we are ultimately here. Because we want to be more secure, and part of becoming more secure is bonding with people who have experienced the same stuff that you did. Storytelling, stuff like that. Think of support groups. Commiseration, encouragement. And permission to be emotionally honest. This is why I think that people jumping on dullboat for being so angry and so blame filled are misguided. So back to the type of blame for the end of the relationship. When things are said like the demise of a relationship is always because of the interaction of two people…I mean, sure, but not really, if someone is looking for flaws and problems to deactivate, they will find them whether they are there or not. When it comes to that I think every situation is different. And in cases where the anxious partner behaved seriously anxiously, as we all eventually did in our relationships, we should let ourselves off the hook a little. We know that there can be a slow build up of the anxious avoidant dance that’s really hard to notice until you’re completely ensnared in it…. In other words, the avoidant’s deactivation strategies do make the unaware anxious OR SECURE LEANING ANXIOUS partner less secure with time. . Sorting through the aftermath of these relationships always eventually arrives at the stage where you question why you loved someone who repeatedly did things that were hurtful and harmful to the relationship. I believe it’s very important to figure this out, but I’ve said this many times before…after you get it, it’s like, you have to go and live your life and practice being more secure in reality now and not focus on the past. II know why I was attracted to the avoidant and I know why I was behaved anxiously when I did, it had to do with my childhood and also that gradual worsening of the deactivations.. But now that I understand that, and I can make different choices now, I still find it useful sometimes to get in touch with that anger. Part of that anger exists when you still love the person that hurt you. I have no shame in admitting that I still love my ex probably even though I don’t want to. That anger is kind of like the antidote when I start feeling those feelings of going into fantasy land. If someone on this forum is still extremely angry, chances are they still love/hate their ex. cliche but true: Hate is not the opposite of love, indifference is.. I think in those relationships were there was a lot of love there’s going to be a lot of anger and hurt for a long time. Especially in those relationships where it seems like the avoidant genuinely and totally loved you, the fallout is even more confusing because it makes no fucking sense. And that is completely fine. Love is impossible to quantify, however, the deeper the connection between the anxious and avoidant, the harder it all is. Obviously. Dullboat obviously loved his ex very much, just like I did mine - so let us be angry godammit! We are practicing how to protect ourselves and have stronger boundaries. |
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