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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2022 15:19:26 GMT
Perhaps the book “Why Does He Do That” by Lundy Bancroft could help ease some of your hesitation that in no way were you ever responsible for what another person did to you. It lies solely on them. You did not attract or provoke abuse. Luckily for you this new person revealed his true character in time and you were able yo end it with him. I don't think people attract abuse. But the issues involved in insecure attachment include the inability to register danger signals, confusion about boundaries, and automatic responses such as fawning that make oneself incapable of self protection. When J recognized those issues in me, I wasn't holding myself responsible for abuse! But I was recognizing how wounds inside myself kept me in harms way. I don't think that's blaming I think it's empowering, at least it was for me. In a toxic relationship there are power dynamics that are at play, and those dynamics are something that can be understood as a path toward healing. |
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Post by cherrycola on May 2, 2022 15:49:54 GMT
Thank you all for the support. annieb that is an amazing book that helped me leave my marriage. I just re-scanned the types of abusers to remind myself about how insidious and sneaky they can be. I hate how society perpetuates this myth that we somehow are responsible when people do shitty things against us. I am becoming very sensitive to power and control tactics used against me now but obviously still have some triggers to work through about what happened to me before. |
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2022 23:21:13 GMT
I think that there can be a fine line with talking about a hard dating past with new partners, too. I don't think most people want to be compared to people who behaved badly in our past. They want to be living now, if they are healthy, not looking to rescue or to shame, just not wanting to live in a shadow of anyones past. So that's where I think a compliment to him turning into a statement about your painful past could go wrong. I don't know if he had unhealthy things going on and I can see why what he said was very triggering. But also, I dated a man who so relieved I wasn't like his ex... until he decided that I was JUST LIKE his ex. Truth is this man had unresolved issues and was emotionally unstable, and he was abusive to his daughter in ways that got the attention of child services.... I found all this out as we went but in the beginning, he brought up how I wasn't like his ex and what she did to him.
So, it's possible that anyone with years of relationships and dating under their belt have run into certain types that trigger them. He may very well have found himself in the shoes of the next victim with a person who claimed to be a victim, he could be triggered as well, from a relationship gone bad at some point. I'm not at all trying to invalidate what happened with you here, I'm just saying that having the past come up in passing instead of just letting things be "present moment" can be baggage that people don't want to deal with.
Of course, you are familiar with his vibe with you so I could be way off base. I also am u clear as to whether he knew the details of your history.
The healthier my relationships are, the less reference there is to what's resolved, and healed. It doesn't enter into the conversation on either side not because anyone is suppressing anything but because it's a new chapter and the past really doesn't matter other than what it's taught us.
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Post by cherrycola on May 3, 2022 0:05:50 GMT
I think that there can be a fine line with talking about a hard dating past with new partners, too. I don't think most people want to be compared to people who behaved badly in our past. They want to be living now, if they are healthy, not looking to rescue or to shame, just not wanting to live in a shadow of anyones past. So that's where I think a compliment to him turning into a statement about your painful past could go wrong. I don't know if he had unhealthy things going on and I can see why what he said was very triggering. But also, I dated a man who so relieved I wasn't like his ex... until he decided that I was JUST LIKE his ex. Truth is this man had unresolved issues and was emotionally unstable, and he was abusive to his daughter in ways that got the attention of child services.... I found all this out as we went but in the beginning, he brought up how I wasn't like his ex and what she did to him. So, it's possible that anyone with years of relationships and dating under their belt have run into certain types that trigger them. He may very well have found himself in the shoes of the next victim with a person who claimed to be a victim, he could be triggered as well, from a relationship gone bad at some point. I'm not at all trying to invalidate what happened with you here, I'm just saying that having the past come up in passing instead of just letting things be "present moment" can be baggage that people don't want to deal with. Of course, you are familiar with his vibe with you so I could be way off base. I also am u clear as to whether he knew the details of your history. The healthier my relationships are, the less reference there is to what's resolved, and healed. It doesn't enter into the conversation on either side not because anyone is suppressing anything but because it's a new chapter and the past really doesn't matter other than what it's taught us. Thank you for your perspective, yes I am having a hard time processing some of the past things still. I think hanging around Mr. AP may have actually made them worse because he's dragged a lot of trauma out of me. And although good to process it, it feels like it threw me backwards. There were a few other things he had said that were kinda niggling on me about him anyways, but it was low investment so I was going to wait to do a vibe check in person. Maybe this was just my way of pulling the plug on something I didn't even want to really pursue. There was some toxic positivity statements and everything is peachy all the time. Speaking of Mr. AP, he is still around, our dynamic as friends has started to stabilize somewhat into something where we are a lot more honest with each other. We've straightened out a few of the things that happened while we were dating. We are having one challenging dynamic lately where he says he wants to do something, and I've clearly communicated I wanted to do said thing, but then he keeps repeating that he wants to do it as if I hadn't said anything. So to me I take that as he doesn't want to do said thing with me and is just griping. We've talked about it twice and the first time he said he couldn't figure out why I wanted to do said thing... so he didn't take me seriously. The next time was he wanted to go somewhere overnight with me, I said that sounds like a lot of fun, then he got wishy washy about going. And I wasn't about to make a bunch of arrangements to have him bail so I let it drop. He then brought it up again and said he is just super insecure and doesn't want to ask for anything directly, but I had directly communicated my intent to go with him so now it feels more like self-sabotage? Like he can blame me for not doing the thing that maybe he actually had anxiety over doing? Not sure how to correct this dynamic because I obviously have my own insecurities and continuing to say I want to do that, feels both like I am being rejected over and over, and like I am violating his boundaries, because if I say lets do that! I have clearly communicated my intent and anything further is not respecting him not wanting to do it with me. |
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2022 1:00:01 GMT
I think that there can be a fine line with talking about a hard dating past with new partners, too. I don't think most people want to be compared to people who behaved badly in our past. They want to be living now, if they are healthy, not looking to rescue or to shame, just not wanting to live in a shadow of anyones past. So that's where I think a compliment to him turning into a statement about your painful past could go wrong. I don't know if he had unhealthy things going on and I can see why what he said was very triggering. But also, I dated a man who so relieved I wasn't like his ex... until he decided that I was JUST LIKE his ex. Truth is this man had unresolved issues and was emotionally unstable, and he was abusive to his daughter in ways that got the attention of child services.... I found all this out as we went but in the beginning, he brought up how I wasn't like his ex and what she did to him. So, it's possible that anyone with years of relationships and dating under their belt have run into certain types that trigger them. He may very well have found himself in the shoes of the next victim with a person who claimed to be a victim, he could be triggered as well, from a relationship gone bad at some point. I'm not at all trying to invalidate what happened with you here, I'm just saying that having the past come up in passing instead of just letting things be "present moment" can be baggage that people don't want to deal with. Of course, you are familiar with his vibe with you so I could be way off base. I also am u clear as to whether he knew the details of your history. The healthier my relationships are, the less reference there is to what's resolved, and healed. It doesn't enter into the conversation on either side not because anyone is suppressing anything but because it's a new chapter and the past really doesn't matter other than what it's taught us. Thank you for your perspective, yes I am having a hard time processing some of the past things still. I think hanging around Mr. AP may have actually made them worse because he's dragged a lot of trauma out of me. And although good to process it, it feels like it threw me backwards. There were a few other things he had said that were kinda niggling on me about him anyways, but it was low investment so I was going to wait to do a vibe check in person. Maybe this was just my way of pulling the plug on something I didn't even want to really pursue. There was some toxic positivity statements and everything is peachy all the time. Speaking of Mr. AP, he is still around, our dynamic as friends has started to stabilize somewhat into something where we are a lot more honest with each other. We've straightened out a few of the things that happened while we were dating. We are having one challenging dynamic lately where he says he wants to do something, and I've clearly communicated I wanted to do said thing, but then he keeps repeating that he wants to do it as if I hadn't said anything. So to me I take that as he doesn't want to do said thing with me and is just griping. We've talked about it twice and the first time he said he couldn't figure out why I wanted to do said thing... so he didn't take me seriously. The next time was he wanted to go somewhere overnight with me, I said that sounds like a lot of fun, then he got wishy washy about going. And I wasn't about to make a bunch of arrangements to have him bail so I let it drop. He then brought it up again and said he is just super insecure and doesn't want to ask for anything directly, but I had directly communicated my intent to go with him so now it feels more like self-sabotage? Like he can blame me for not doing the thing that maybe he actually had anxiety over doing? Not sure how to correct this dynamic because I obviously have my own insecurities and continuing to say I want to do that, feels both like I am being rejected over and over, and like I am violating his boundaries, because if I say lets do that! I have clearly communicated my intent and anything further is not respecting him not wanting to do it with me. Hmmm. Sounds messy. You did write that you had determined you can't be romantic with him and the dynamic was creeping into issues your self esteem... and also that there was perhaps too much romantic charge to be friends. With what you've said about how he's treated you but still being engaged in a complicated and insecure dynamic, I wouldn't really expect to be able to resolve the dynamic. It seems like just an insecure dynamic, for reasons that you already have expressed about him. |
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Post by anne12 on May 3, 2022 6:49:14 GMT
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Post by cherrycola on May 3, 2022 15:17:09 GMT
I love this. Thank you! I've heard her say something similar before but this was really succinct. I recently had #3 from someone I considered a good friend and it was so alienating to turn to someone for support and have them get after me that I let them down.  |
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Post by cherrycola on May 4, 2022 16:47:58 GMT
I tore through an entire book on passive aggressive men as it's something I have run into repeatedly. It gave me so much insight into why I stay, what I do to contribute to it and how to get out of those dynamics. I can see it's what is causing the problem dynamic with Mr. AP and gave me a new perspective on all our interactions so far. It just goes to show that attachment isn't an all inclusive explanation for all behavior, just a starting point.
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Post by alexandra on May 4, 2022 21:01:26 GMT
Attachment can help explain why you're conditioned to put up with relationship dynamics that aren't working for you. I do highly recommend branching out to date men who aren't passive-aggressive, because it's a major game changer for healthy communication. But as we've already discussed in this thread, it's not as easy to find that variety when you're living in a culture where it's the norm -- though not impossible!
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rykus9
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Post by rykus9 on May 4, 2022 23:59:25 GMT
Wow I never put that together until you said it that a closed down culture such as ours passive aggressive tendencies would be more prominent alexandra thanks for the insight! I agree cherrycola the attachment is just one aspect in a very deep pool of trait we can all posses to various degrees. It is a great tool to have though and I found I could implement it in my own behavior easier than other labels like popular psychology, Mayer Briggs, astrology etc where it just told you about yourself but not how to deal with those aspects as much. Although until I joined here even reading the attachment stuff was a bit more like that but it did get me researching which led me here. Sending positive a supportive thoughts your way! |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2022 3:35:33 GMT
It's also true that both anxious and avoidant have passive aggressive strategies. It's all very interwoven. But the thing is, if things constantly feel off and gamey and obstructed, something is very very wrong. That's not a good starting point for a friendship or a romantic relationship... no relationship for that matter. Letting go is really a great option if you have to spend a lot of time trying to smooth things over or try to figure out what is going on. Abort mission.
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Post by cherrycola on May 21, 2022 6:00:31 GMT
Had my first date in awhile. I re-matched on tinder with someone I had chatted with 3 months ago and asked him out quickly. Turns out he is a counsellor. Tad bit intimidating. Overall nice, but I actually found his lines of questioning a bit intrusive at times. Doesn't want kids, anti-vaxxer, single for 8 years and shared how his mom disowned him at one point. Guess counsellors are just people as well. There will not be a second date but he did pay for dinner! So overall a pleasant evening.
Still in touch with Mr. AP. As I tried to disengage he just engaged more. calling, hanging out, a lot more consistency. He wants to meet my sister, go on a date, take a trip. He obviously was feeling a lot safer since he pushed me away. Then he awkwardly texts me that he is trying to make things work long distance with someone who had dumped him. Just from the way it was worded, he thought it was going to upset me. We end up grabbing dinner and I honestly felt okay just being his friend at that point. We had gotten to a good place, when he brings her up! How things are confusing, how they want different things. How he is just too needy and is going to try to be better for her. I lost it and tried to explain how a healthy relationship dynamic should work. He agreed that I get him, that we get along great, that I make him feel heard. So I called out the hot and cold, that we want the same things, that I was so confused. We went around for over an hour as he tried to change the topic and I brought it back.
Us FAs really do miss when people try to tell us the truth. Some of the things he said, he had said before, though very passively. At the time I barely registered them, so hadn't expressed curiosity to the meaning under them. Would have saved myself a lot of grief. He basically wrote me off as "too put together" and that I respect myself more then the other women he dates. So when I wanted to take intimacy slow, and I had boundaries, he just felt I wasn't the person for him. A fair assessment. He basically rushes into physical intimacy, ignores any compatibility issues and then figures out the relationship after. But what I was able to get to under all that was shame and fear. He admitted to some white lies that he felt really bad about.
It felt like things were left at, I understand now why things didn't work out, I can't force you to be any different then who you are. Then three days later he texts asking if I really want a life with him. Unfortunately he was just leaving for a three week trip so we didn't get a chance to actually talk. My counsellor pointed out the power struggle we are in. He doesn't trust me and is trying to feel safe by taking control. She made a rare judgement that she doesn't like him as a partner.
To anyone still reading. Us FA's are dangerous folk. Understanding why we do what we do is not enough. Even when aware of our issues, if we are not actively working on ourselves and do not have tools to effectively communicate, we will hurt people. It isn't even a question of if, it is a question of when. If I had not set boundaries with him early on and just rushed in, I have a feeling things would be far messier then they already are.
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Post by cherrycola on May 30, 2022 4:56:20 GMT
So... I didn't think I was upset about Mr. AP until I ended up in tears during therapy. Words such as abusive, and narcissistic were used to describe his behavior by my counsellor. Yet I still can't quite believe them? Like somehow this is my fault. I've told her that sometimes I worry I have her completely fooled and she just reassures me she has worked with enough abused women to know the signs.
He was keeping in touch, but after I misread a text and quickly apologized, he left me on read, then my messages stopped even being delivered, trying to not assume he blocked me but I know he is home now, so not sure what else to think. All I can think about is how misreading a text probably reinforces how he thinks we are not compatible because I don't understand him. But I am trying to not read into things and just not reach out any further at this point. Wanting perfect attunement and understanding are just not reasonable things to expect from a partner.
My inner critic is pretty much screaming at me how much I suck, trying to tell it to be quiet. It is interesting to see how I have a hard time balancing my two sides. If I have boundaries and am assertive then I also tend to lean on the almost aggressive side and have GIANT walls and the second I try to put those walls down it doesn't take much for me to fall into this insecure people pleasing mess.
Yet I know he is lucky to be around ME! Not a single ex will talk to him shows I'm not the first to receive this treatment. Yet he said he treats me WELL compared to the women he dates. I am also not responsible for the fact that he is triangulating me against his exes. That he is passive aggressive and doesn't tell me when he is hurt. That when I ask for things like a phone call when he has a minute he ignores it. My Logical grounded side of my brain is more engaged then ever but he has me so strongly hooked, Mr. Situationship was nothing compared to this. I still don't understand why when I am around him or on the phone with him I feel at ease. My entire nervous system just settles and feels good. Guess this tells me I need to do a lot more work around self-soothing.
I wish he would just do something heinous. From what he has said about his past, he rarely ends all contact with anyone. And I already know if he does decide to break things off, he'll do it through some super shitty means that forces me to do it, so maybe that is what he is doing now... My counsellor is being amazingly supportive and helping me through this shame. She agrees this really highlights that I need to continue work on my codependent tendencies.
I am also feeling angry right now. So just letting that anger sit there for a bit.
I had a good chat with my ex husband about this. He went around and around with a DA after we broke up and she did the same thing. She would agree they were so good together then find really silly reasons to break things off. I miss him right now, as bad as he treated me sometimes, he never treated me like this. I also am missing my old life. Although I know why I ended things sometimes it feels like I blew up at a 17 year relationship out of stupidity/my own unprocessed trauma. But I know that ultimately leaving that situation was for the best and leaving the situation with Mr. AP is also for the best, no matter how hard the next few weeks are going to be.
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Post by alexandra on May 30, 2022 6:24:40 GMT
Wanting perfect attunement and understanding are just not reasonable things to expect from a partner. I'm sorry you're in pain but not sorry you're going through this because it sounds like you're getting some real emotional processing done. I wanted to jump on this sentence and fix it. Wanting perfect attunement and understanding are just not reasonable things to expect from this partner. Maybe you can't get *totally* perfect, but you can find pretty close in a healthier partner. You can't get it from Mr. AP (who is FA). Complete lack of attunement can also present and be received as emotional abuse. I know because I've been there, done that. It's not healthy to immerse in it because it will drain your self-esteem if you let it. Think about it this way... lack of parental / parental figure attunement causes insecure attachment styles to develop in children. So it's not good for us or our development. That's not something to find ways to keep blaming yourself for, but you're probably doing that because it's how you learned how to cope with similar feelings in the past. |
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2022 13:17:15 GMT
Maybe you could change his name from Mr. AP, to Mr. PA for Mr. Passive Aggressive.
Remember what you're dealing with here. Go back and read this thread. You got some clarity and lost it. He's a jerk to you. He negatively impacts your self esteem. You're in the trap of an emotionally abusive relationship that you are romanticizing. This isn't your fault, but it's your responsibility to yourself to protect yourself from his manipulative, shitty, and toxic behavior. You can't do that if you allow yourself to slip into your own insecure patterns. He's just triggered the hell out of you, and I'm sorry you are going through this .
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