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Post by seeking on Mar 17, 2022 17:07:46 GMT
Some of you probably remember me writing here about my friend who was in crises and how she told me I was "intense" the day that I was very alarmed about things she was going through.
I wrote her a really "intense" email after that. And she ended the friendship.
A couple months later, I made a final request that she unfriend me from Facebook if she wasn't willing to work things out.
I didn't want to unfriend her because I was still willing to discuss things, half-assuming she would simmer down and "see clearly" and come back. And if I unfriended her, I know she'd take it as another "assault" or attack on her. And maybe even play the victim of me.
Up until recently she didn't unfriend me. I think it gave me some hope - some sense of, "okay maybe she isn't able to let go" like I wasn't. I didn't want to go back to the way things were and I set a pretty clear boundary in the email I wrote to her saying that I didn't want to talk about her drama with her ex anymore as that is really what ruined our friendship.
But I really had a hard time with this. It's mid-March and this happened mid-December, and it feels like a break up with a partner.
This kind of surprised me, but I allowed it to be what it is.
Yesterday, whatever was "up" for me, I decided to tell her I didn't feel safe having her as a facebook friend if we weren't in connection. But I checked first, and she had unfriended me. I was pretty surprised. She has a lot of dependency issues, and I think I was really taken back by the force in which she ended the friendship so definitively and stuck to it. Especially considering she had another long-term friend who she would tell me they weren't talking, then they were, then they weren't. Same with her ex-husband, etc. (different, but still, she couldn't have boundaries with him - I was the one who helped her put those in place).
I've just been surprised by a lot of it - how much all this impacted me, and observing.
Anyway, yesterday when I noticed she had, actually, unfriended me, I felt the surprise, but the rest of my night was so busy I didn't give it much thought. I woke up at 2 am and couldn't fall back asleep (not uncommon). But I felt awful - really lonely, really isolated and a lot of emotions coursing through me - about my parents (my dad doesn't seem to be talking to me for no clear reason - my mom sides with him first and she hasn't been as available) and I was up for hours before I realized that I think I was triggered into this really young, scared, co-dependent place in myself.
I do parts work, so I'll call it a "part" - but I couldn't separate myself from that part. When I finally did, it was such a relief. I was looking up things like "trauma bonding" and no - this friendship wasn't a trauma bond (no abuse happening) but clearly codependence and on my part. It's like it got "activated".
Anyway, I'm hoping to heal this part of me. It can still feel really hard at times when that part is running the show (kind of without me knowing). I've been working on codependence for about 10 years!
I have to run and may write more but wanted to get this out there.
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Post by alexandra on Mar 17, 2022 19:30:32 GMT
I'm sorry you're still hurting over this, seeking. What you describe to me sounds like she is very FA and you responded in a typical enough way to the dynamic that gets created between an FA and anyone with an insecure attachment (or even a secure pushed insecure by an FA who acts inconsistently). It is indeed painful, and I think it's very smart to both feel / process your feelings and use them as a guide to see the deeper problem that was activated and getting projected. You're not alone just because you shed an unreliable friend who couldn't meet your reasonable friend needs in a healthy way, and who wasn't interested in doing so. It's definitely your attachment issues piling on top of the actual situation exacerbating it, which makes it more stressful and harder to process. You're on the right track.
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Post by seeking on Mar 18, 2022 0:12:04 GMT
Thanks, it just touched on a root issue that is still very present for me.
When I was actively friends with her, I think there was some enmeshment happening. All I know is that I didn't realize it (although I did) until after it ended, that it met a bit "need" for me - it distracted me from something. Other friends don't have quite that same feeling. And I know it's not healthy for me. Even though she was relying on me a lot, I was relying on her too. I felt like I could depend on her. I have a driving phobia right now (that seems to directly relate to this issue of feeling lonely and some weird abandonment trauma from when I was younger that I can't quite put a finger on). And it was getting better with her around. I'd imagine if something happened, I could call her. etc. I don't have too many people like that in my life. Some of it is just normal, healthy, but there was an unhealthiness to it too.
It brings me back into the confusion. Was it me?
She seemed so needy that I think her behavior right now still surprises me. So I'm curious what happens with an FA? I feel like it must be a theme in my life because this has come up before (actually in a relationship with a man (my last LTR)) - I had a very similar dynamic with him where I somehow decide to help him "get better" -- because I liked him a lot but he was so much of a mess. Same with this friend. Really liked her, but man ... hot mess. And yet great in many ways but the dynamic became me having healed a lot more and "teaching her" some of it. And then feeling oddly very vulnerable if I were more needy.
Anyway, this happened with my ex too - I called him on his stuff and had a strong boundary with it and bam, door slammed. He found someone else and that was that. I don't really know exactly what happened in this dynamic with my friend, but she tried to call me out and I wasn't having it - and put it back on her, and bam, door slammed. Same with the most recent LTR - and he instantly found someone else (or apparently had a line-up on hand) for when things ended and there was no going back.
So what is it that happens on their end?
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 18, 2022 2:08:17 GMT
Thanks, it just touched on a root issue that is still very present for me. When I was actively friends with her, I think there was some enmeshment happening. All I know is that I didn't realize it (although I did) until after it ended, that it met a bit "need" for me - it distracted me from something. Other friends don't have quite that same feeling. And I know it's not healthy for me. Even though she was relying on me a lot, I was relying on her too. I felt like I could depend on her. I have a driving phobia right now (that seems to directly relate to this issue of feeling lonely and some weird abandonment trauma from when I was younger that I can't quite put a finger on). And it was getting better with her around. I'd imagine if something happened, I could call her. etc. I don't have too many people like that in my life. Some of it is just normal, healthy, but there was an unhealthiness to it too. It brings me back into the confusion. Was it me? She seemed so needy that I think her behavior right now still surprises me. So I'm curious what happens with an FA? I feel like it must be a theme in my life because this has come up before (actually in a relationship with a man (my last LTR)) - I had a very similar dynamic with him where I somehow decide to help him "get better" -- because I liked him a lot but he was so much of a mess. Same with this friend. Really liked her, but man ... hot mess. And yet great in many ways but the dynamic became me having healed a lot more and "teaching her" some of it. And then feeling oddly very vulnerable if I were more needy. Anyway, this happened with my ex too - I called him on his stuff and had a strong boundary with it and bam, door slammed. He found someone else and that was that. I don't really know exactly what happened in this dynamic with my friend, but she tried to call me out and I wasn't having it - and put it back on her, and bam, door slammed. Same with the most recent LTR - and he instantly found someone else (or apparently had a line-up on hand) for when things ended and there was no going back. So what is it that happens on their end? I am FA….it seems she needed you to fulfill a particular role within her life and when you dared to change that up….she did not have the capacity to work with you under this new arrangement. Remember that part of having insecure attachment is having a very limited set of tools with which to work from….and those tools are oftentimes the same ones used in childhood or early adolescence. It takes work to gain new tools…it takes owning up to limits of your current tool set. A lot of insecures will say they are unhappy with how things are but are not motivated to or are fearful of the work required to change it….even when someone else who has already started down that path says it will be ok. I think now is a good time to really sit with that part to understand what she is avoiding. The situation with your friend certainly has stirred the leaves…but the root will be somewhere in your past. Also…pay close attention to what you tell yourself as you are exploring. I have found many times where my “mom” voice will speak judgement into the situation and that can make the exploration stagnate. Allow room for that voice also…but hold it loosely.
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Post by anne12 on Mar 18, 2022 5:50:38 GMT
Just as you can get a broken heart from a loverelationship, you can also get a broken heart when friendships ends
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Post by seeking on Mar 18, 2022 13:57:04 GMT
I am FA….it seems she needed you to fulfill a particular role within her life and when you dared to change that up….she did not have the capacity to work with you under this new arrangement. Remember that part of having insecure attachment is having a very limited set of tools with which to work from….and those tools are oftentimes the same ones used in childhood or early adolescence. It takes work to gain new tools…it takes owning up to limits of your current tool set. A lot of insecures will say they are unhappy with how things are but are not motivated to or are fearful of the work required to change it….even when someone else who has already started down that path says it will be ok. I think now is a good time to really sit with that part to understand what she is avoiding. The situation with your friend certainly has stirred the leaves…but the root will be somewhere in your past. Also…pay close attention to what you tell yourself as you are exploring. I have found many times where my “mom” voice will speak judgement into the situation and that can make the exploration stagnate. Allow room for that voice also…but hold it loosely. This helps. I guess what I don't get about FA, though I know they are insecure. Is that they can be SO needy at first. I'm thinking of her and my LTR (my ex didn't appear needy - he wanted to seem the opposite, and I think was definitely DA). But my LTR guy came on strong and threw himself at me and wanted to be in contact *all the time* it was overwhelming. And then, after 2 years, nothing. He moved right on (had back-up, it would seem). Same with this friend. She was calling 3x a day, in contact, needed help with stuff, etc. I asked for her support at times too and she could give it. She was helpful in many ways with things in my life (though hers was a mess) - so it almost seemed like both of them would never just slam the door shut. They were too needy. I guess maybe I thought they were APish. Not that I was thinking about it, or categorizing them, just looking back - I guess once I called them out on their behavior - they lost interest? But yes, those are good insights - they don't have the capacity. However, my friend did start somatic therapy (I found someone for her) - and my ex LTR did a bunch of work with someone on codependency, and went to therapy ( but I think he stopped and it was mostly for "show"). My ex would never go and do therapy, lol. No way. So I guess now my friend is seeing me as someone who isn't going to let her get away with things?
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Post by seeking on Mar 18, 2022 13:57:16 GMT
Just as you can get a broken heart from a loverelationship, you can also get a broken heart when friendships ends Yes indeed
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Post by seeking on Mar 18, 2022 14:19:15 GMT
I think now is a good time to really sit with that part to understand what she is avoiding. The situation with your friend certainly has stirred the leaves…but the root will be somewhere in your past. Also…pay close attention to what you tell yourself as you are exploring. I have found many times where my “mom” voice will speak judgement into the situation and that can make the exploration stagnate. Allow room for that voice also…but hold it loosely. This hasn't been easy. I have a therapist, but we are specifically working on something (and it's expensive) so not sure I'll get to this. I found "her" and am getting to know her, but sometimes the connection fades out and it feels hard to stay in contact. I imagine her as a client of mine, telling me her story, and I'm trying to listen. But there is nothing that I can exactly pinpoint. I'm not even sure what I'm looking for. I know for sure, she's avoiding an empty, lonely, disconnected feeling. And that it is largely due to feeling/being alone. As in, not all of it is pathological.
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 18, 2022 17:15:51 GMT
I think now is a good time to really sit with that part to understand what she is avoiding. The situation with your friend certainly has stirred the leaves…but the root will be somewhere in your past. Also…pay close attention to what you tell yourself as you are exploring. I have found many times where my “mom” voice will speak judgement into the situation and that can make the exploration stagnate. Allow room for that voice also…but hold it loosely. This hasn't been easy. I have a therapist, but we are specifically working on something (and it's expensive) so not sure I'll get to this. I found "her" and am getting to know her, but sometimes the connection fades out and it feels hard to stay in contact. I imagine her as a client of mine, telling me her story, and I'm trying to listen. But there is nothing that I can exactly pinpoint. I'm not even sure what I'm looking for. I know for sure, she's avoiding an empty, lonely, disconnected feeling. And that it is largely due to feeling/being alone. As in, not all of it is pathological. That in of itself is really helpful information…especially if she is young and doesn’t have the words to go deeper. It might make sense to simply validate her feelings….her need for companionship. That is what my SE therapist does all the time. Especially in this time of Covid…connection is super important. Do you have any hobbies that get you out to meet people? Any interests? Is there a way that you can ask her what she would like to do?
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 18, 2022 17:25:54 GMT
I am FA….it seems she needed you to fulfill a particular role within her life and when you dared to change that up….she did not have the capacity to work with you under this new arrangement. Remember that part of having insecure attachment is having a very limited set of tools with which to work from….and those tools are oftentimes the same ones used in childhood or early adolescence. It takes work to gain new tools…it takes owning up to limits of your current tool set. A lot of insecures will say they are unhappy with how things are but are not motivated to or are fearful of the work required to change it….even when someone else who has already started down that path says it will be ok. I think now is a good time to really sit with that part to understand what she is avoiding. The situation with your friend certainly has stirred the leaves…but the root will be somewhere in your past. Also…pay close attention to what you tell yourself as you are exploring. I have found many times where my “mom” voice will speak judgement into the situation and that can make the exploration stagnate. Allow room for that voice also…but hold it loosely. This helps. I guess what I don't get about FA, though I know they are insecure. Is that they can be SO needy at first. I'm thinking of her and my LTR (my ex didn't appear needy - he wanted to seem the opposite, and I think was definitely DA). But my LTR guy came on strong and threw himself at me and wanted to be in contact *all the time* it was overwhelming. And then, after 2 years, nothing. He moved right on (had back-up, it would seem). Same with this friend. She was calling 3x a day, in contact, needed help with stuff, etc. I asked for her support at times too and she could give it. She was helpful in many ways with things in my life (though hers was a mess) - so it almost seemed like both of them would never just slam the door shut. They were too needy. I guess maybe I thought they were APish. Not that I was thinking about it, or categorizing them, just looking back - I guess once I called them out on their behavior - they lost interest? But yes, those are good insights - they don't have the capacity. However, my friend did start somatic therapy (I found someone for her) - and my ex LTR did a bunch of work with someone on codependency, and went to therapy ( but I think he stopped and it was mostly for "show"). My ex would never go and do therapy, lol. No way. So I guess now my friend is seeing me as someone who isn't going to let her get away with things? I think all insecures start off with a fantasy of how the other person will be…..which is why things tend to feel “rushed” and “love bombed”….heck, I did that with B….I was completely “in love” with him before I knew 1 single thing about him. I did not realize that what I fell in love with was a story I created in my head….an idealized version of what I thought he was. Depending on where we are in our journey….as the other person shows us who he/she truly is…there are 3 reactions….hold fiercely to the fantasy, start planning an escape or adapt to the new information. Unfortunately…most insecurely attached individuals will go forward with the first 2. That is why things start off so amazing and then the pulling away starts to happen. Remember that due to trauma….FAs have both overactive and underactive nervous system responses. Also…and this is really key….the responses are not so much about you as what the signals are from inside the FA. You could do everything right….you could not be triggering at all…and still the internal FA nervous system will go into high or low gear. The best thing you can do is recognize how you feel and see whether the relationship is one that is still adding value.
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Post by seeking on Mar 18, 2022 17:27:36 GMT
That in of itself is really helpful information…especially if she is young and doesn’t have the words to go deeper. It might make sense to simply validate her feelings….her need for companionship. That is what my SE therapist does all the time. Especially in this time of Covid…connection is super important. Do you have any hobbies that get you out to meet people? Any interests? Is there a way that you can ask her what she would like to do? I have too many interests. And do too many things. I see clients all day. I have constant invites, emails with friends, tons of friends. I can't keep up with texts. I meet friends all the time, run a co-op, talk to a guy online. It doesn't seem to touch what is happening here. Which I guess is also good to notice. When I was in a relationship with this friend, it didn't feel like that. When I had a relationship with my parents or sister, it lessened. At the end of the day, I don't know who in my life of all the activities and hobbies and people - would really truly be there. There are times when I feel really connected to the people around me, but it's either not satisfying or I want more or sometimes I need my own space. So it's specific to abandonment. Heading into another meeting but thanks for the help.
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 18, 2022 17:47:06 GMT
That in of itself is really helpful information…especially if she is young and doesn’t have the words to go deeper. It might make sense to simply validate her feelings….her need for companionship. That is what my SE therapist does all the time. Especially in this time of Covid…connection is super important. Do you have any hobbies that get you out to meet people? Any interests? Is there a way that you can ask her what she would like to do? I have too many interests. And do too many things. I see clients all day. I have constant invites, emails with friends, tons of friends. I can't keep up with texts. I meet friends all the time, run a co-op, talk to a guy online. It doesn't seem to touch what is happening here. Which I guess is also good to notice. When I was in a relationship with this friend, it didn't feel like that. When I had a relationship with my parents or sister, it lessened. At the end of the day, I don't know who in my life of all the activities and hobbies and people - would really truly be there. There are times when I feel really connected to the people around me, but it's either not satisfying or I want more or sometimes I need my own space. So it's specific to abandonment. Heading into another meeting but thanks for the help. So maybe what that part want is something “deeper”…..less friends, but ones who will go the mile with you. Maybe your closet is too full of unequal friendships and some pruning is in order. Carve out some time to think more about this….there is a book I read once called running on empty and it was a guy who had every day filled to the brim and just felt to empty by it. I think there is a delicate balance between others and self. I had to sit down and figure out which friendship were fulfilling and which ones were draining…same thing with activities.
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 18, 2022 17:54:11 GMT
That in of itself is really helpful information…especially if she is young and doesn’t have the words to go deeper. It might make sense to simply validate her feelings….her need for companionship. That is what my SE therapist does all the time. Especially in this time of Covid…connection is super important. Do you have any hobbies that get you out to meet people? Any interests? Is there a way that you can ask her what she would like to do? I have too many interests. And do too many things. I see clients all day. I have constant invites, emails with friends, tons of friends. I can't keep up with texts. I meet friends all the time, run a co-op, talk to a guy online. It doesn't seem to touch what is happening here. Which I guess is also good to notice. When I was in a relationship with this friend, it didn't feel like that. When I had a relationship with my parents or sister, it lessened. At the end of the day, I don't know who in my life of all the activities and hobbies and people - would really truly be there. There are times when I feel really connected to the people around me, but it's either not satisfying or I want more or sometimes I need my own space. So it's specific to abandonment. Heading into another meeting but thanks for the help. When I was in a relationship with this friend, it didn't feel like that. When I had a relationship with my parents or sister, it lessened. At the end of the day, I don't know who in my life of all the activities and hobbies and people - would really truly be there. Can you expand on this?
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Post by seeking on Mar 18, 2022 18:53:08 GMT
I think all insecures start off with a fantasy of how the other person will be…..which is why things tend to feel “rushed” and “love bombed”….heck, I did that with B….I was completely “in love” with him before I knew 1 single thing about him. I did not realize that what I fell in love with was a story I created in my head….an idealized version of what I thought he was. Depending on where we are in our journey….as the other person shows us who he/she truly is…there are 3 reactions….hold fiercely to the fantasy, start planning an escape or adapt to the new information. Unfortunately…most insecurely attached individuals will go forward with the first 2. That is why things start off so amazing and then the pulling away starts to happen. Remember that due to trauma….FAs have both overactive and underactive nervous system responses. Also…and this is really key….the responses are not so much about you as what the signals are from inside the FA. You could do everything right….you could not be triggering at all…and still the internal FA nervous system will go into high or low gear. The best thing you can do is recognize how you feel and see whether the relationship is one that is still adding value. YES! This is exactly what it was like with LTR (not my ex/father of my kid, just distinguishing there - he was the opposite). And friend is a third person here in this discussion. But LTR was so hot and heavy and fast in the beginning, even if I weren't insecure (and tending toward avoidant in that dynamic), it would be a red flag. Yet, I liked him. And I just kept trying to get him to "do work" to adjust his overwhelmingness so that I could actually be with him. But I also had an "insecurity" (which is maybe a reality) that it wasn't ME he liked. He didn't even know me. I just filled a slot. Then I got a lot of criticism from a codependent friend about how relationships shouldn't be that much "WORK" - and what did I want, for him NEVER to call me? Like she couldn't see there was a middle ground. She may have also been a little jealous or projecting her own need to have someone pursuing her. Frankly, it was shutting me down. And my message to LTR was like - I want to be with you but I can't be with you when you're smooshing me. And suffocating me. And I thought there was something wrong with me in that. We went round and round on this. And yet, when he did back off my insecure parts came forward and I would have a lot of anger and even rage and protest. And then cut him off. Yikes. So I cut him off a few times, he begged. Until one time it got so bad that by the time I got the space I needed and felt tenderness toward him again, he was gone. That was it. He'd gotten back together with his ex wife or something. His father died, and he would not let me in - at all. And I was left feeling pretty upset, hurt, no proper ending. No discussion. Kind of like how I feel with my current ex-friend even though that's not how things went necessarily in our relationship. But all that to say that what remained was like how could LTR be soo incredibly hot and heavy and needing of me and then just shut off. I think a part of me felt some reassurance or certainty in knowing I'd "never be abandoned by them" and then shocked by their walled-offedness. Does that make sense?
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Post by alexandra on Mar 18, 2022 19:06:52 GMT
I guess once I called them out on their behavior - they lost interest? So I guess now my friend is seeing me as someone who isn't going to let her get away with things? It may be as simple as, once you've called them out and indicated you really see them in a non-fantasy way and are attempting to hold them accountable, they feel overwhelming shame. And they can't deal with it. They're aware of their problems but keep avoiding confronting the issues within themselves because it's too painful. So now, it doesn't feel safe with you, not because you did anything wrong but because they are unhealthy and avoiding and you've reminded them their stuff is still there. One of the ways to handle this is to shut down and project and blame you instead, so that they can run away from those bad feelings (as a defense mechanism, you become the source of negative feelings in their heads instead of them). That's why their only enduring friendships are the enabling kind. The key here to see is, it's not actually about you as a person. Because people who are extremely FA on the scale and are also either unaware or just refusing to work on it put up their defense mechanisms and distill their experience to how do they react and feel in reaction to other people, so it's all about them really due to their own dysfunction in their emotional health, instead of being able to clearly see you and who you are first. Like, it's not about, I like seeking because she has these qualities and values and characteristics and is a cool overall person who I care about... it's, I like seeking because she listens when I unload on her and helps me emotionally regulate myself when I have drama, and sometimes we have fun together too! It's not my best explanation ever lol, but does it make sense so far?
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