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Post by seeking on Mar 20, 2022 2:51:28 GMT
The void is definitely legitimate! In what sense? I'm thinking of a "hole" the "void" - emptiness. Are you think of them all the same? When you say legitimate, well can you say more?
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Post by seeking on Mar 20, 2022 3:03:04 GMT
seeking , I know I've said this before, but I'm going to keep bringing it up and reinforcing it. This is all related to your family dynamics. Something with your ex and your friend reminds you of something about the relationships with your parents and your sister, and you're still trying to fix it and figure out how to get your needs met on some level. It's not always intuitive that this stuff is all connected, but it is. Figuring out where those connections are and using it to work on your narrative of understanding your past will help give you more to build on to move forward. Right. Gotchya. I think I just heard this in a different way. Like with ex-friend, and LTR - there is some re-enactment is what you're saying? Some attempt to move the pieces around so I can heal. Is that what you're saying?
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Post by alexandra on Mar 20, 2022 4:12:06 GMT
I'm saying there are similarities in dynamics and feelings you can't quite wrap your head around fully are getting activated and are overwhelming and resulting in longing, so it's partially happening because old indescribable wounds are being activated. And the old wounds are with your family history. So it's all pointing back to the underlying piece that needs to be addressed, the void within yourself that still needs healing. You may still be operating from the perspective of being the scapegoat and all that gets dumped on that role by others. It's not an autonomous role, it is one that is always defined by others and according to others and doesn't give you room for yourself and your own thoughts. That doesn't just go away in adulthood, it will leave behind negative feelings in how you approach yourself, which I think is manifesting in longing you haven't been able to fill. My opinion, but worth bringing up to your therapist, I think.
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 20, 2022 11:43:41 GMT
I'm saying there are similarities in dynamics and feelings you can't quite wrap your head around fully are getting activated and are overwhelming and resulting in longing, so it's partially happening because old indescribable wounds are being activated. And the old wounds are with your family history. So it's all pointing back to the underlying piece that needs to be addressed, the void within yourself that still needs healing. You may still be operating from the perspective of being the scapegoat and all that gets dumped on that role by others. It's not an autonomous role, it is one that is always defined by others and according to others and doesn't give you room for yourself and your own thoughts. That doesn't just go away in adulthood, it will leave behind negative feelings in how you approach yourself, which I think is manifesting in longing you haven't been able to fill. My opinion, but worth bringing up to your therapist, I think. Just going to chime in on the family scapegoat…..that is me in my family and as my therapist and I explored what attracted me to B…it was this sense that he did not judge me the way I was by my mom….however, there was also this “familiar but different” aspect about him….meaning he checked off all the unavailable boxes that I have been used to with my parents…but his judgements were different enough to make me think that through that relationship I would finally feel whole. Obviously that did not work out.
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Post by seeking on Mar 20, 2022 14:47:39 GMT
alexandra wondering how you would define the void (same as hole or emptiness?) I think I need to start with that to make sure I'm following. I have a bit of a neurodiverse brain that kind of needs to lay down one concept before moving on to the next. From the way TNR made it sound it's like yeah, of course there is a void, you're not getting what you need. I think you'd agree, but I guess not everyone has this?
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Post by seeking on Mar 20, 2022 15:21:04 GMT
I'm saying there are similarities in dynamics and feelings you can't quite wrap your head around fully are getting activated and are overwhelming and resulting in longing, so it's partially happening because old indescribable wounds are being activated. And the old wounds are with your family history. So it's all pointing back to the underlying piece that needs to be addressed, the void within yourself that still needs healing. You may still be operating from the perspective of being the scapegoat and all that gets dumped on that role by others. It's not an autonomous role, it is one that is always defined by others and according to others and doesn't give you room for yourself and your own thoughts. That doesn't just go away in adulthood, it will leave behind negative feelings in how you approach yourself, which I think is manifesting in longing you haven't been able to fill. My opinion, but worth bringing up to your therapist, I think. This makes sense. I guess I want to understand the void so I can have a concept of how to heal it. I work with IFS (internal family systems) and a very specific topic (indirectly related to my family right now - but more me). (Trying to sort out driving and why I shut down around it). I'm looking up scapegoat, and I don't relate to that. But a lot just came pouring out of me so I'll put it in another comment here....
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Post by seeking on Mar 20, 2022 15:46:04 GMT
Yikes, so I think I'm getting somewhere finally - here is what I started saying in response to Alexandra, and it just got long.... but it all seems to be coming back now. And the connections are clear - just having to write though it a bit here....
(anyway, reading more about scape-goating and I would say there is some recognition there - it's not clear cut, but possibly occasional scape goat)..
I was the one who was "deep" and contemplative, and "weird" -- my mother once told me that she and my sister are "superficial" and she's okay with that. That is why they had a stronger bond or something. Weird convo, I don't remember details but she clearly always identified more with my sister, kind of "lived through her" and approved of her more - my sister's path was more mainstream, straight and narrow, etc. Married a guy with money, settled in the suburbs, always looked "hot" - looks were a big thing for my mom. She was always embarrassed of how I looked or hyperaware if I gained any weight.
If I think about ex-friend or LTR - the only thing that comes up is that they liked to be kind of surfacey too.
Particularly with ex-friend there was this "Hey, let's go out to dinner" and get out a little -- meanwhile it was like her life was a war zone. And then frustration with me b/c I had too much going on to ever meet. I'm not someone who prioritizes socializing if my life is a war zone. LTR did this too. Like, 'oh yeah that? let's not look at that right now, but let's go to that new mexican restaurant. or this folk festival."
And so it always set up this weird dynamic like I was the grown-up serious one who was no fun. (Hi Mom) --
But I tend to have this dynamic with a lot of people. If I think about it, though, all three of them could be pretty avoidant and ADHD-like. They moved fast, little time for reflection, avoided themselves in a big way. And then that shone a light on me of like -what is it that you do? You're different. And I made it mean, I'm not fun, light-hearted, easy. I'm too much of a pain to be around b/c I make people look at shit.
I don't know about ex-friend, but I do now recall that LTR and my mom would ALWAYS tell white lies. One time LTR wanted me to tell a white lie TO my mom and I lost my mind. I felt like I deactivated. That was kind of their MO - to be in this chronic survival mode and if I was like "Hey there's a better way, let's sit and talk about it or try to get you help, etc" I was resisted and a little strange -- and obviously the one with the issue.
So I guess for me there was a compulsion to "fix" - and they could be fixed. I really think that is the heart of my dynamic.
I am aware that with ex-friend if I could get her to "leave the bad guy" it would definitely provide something for me (around my mom in an abusive marriage with my dad).
So while I've definitely had my dad dynamics - (which were very different and really not what came up with LTR and ex-friend) - these two feel all about mom. It seems pretty clear that if I could get ex-friend to see the abuse in her marriage and take a stand, she'd be "choosing me" ( so clearly a childhood re-enactment) and maybe when she said I got "intense" that day - that she was referring to that. It was something else in the room. And why I keep going back to "some of this was me" -
ohhhhhh - and the other piece is that around that time, maybe it was the same day, she kept slipping into victim mode. In one of her voice memos to me, she said "This is hard." And I remember kind of flipping out. I left her a really "firm" for lack of a better word - voice memo back saying "You can do hard things. I ___________________" and went on to say I worked full time (at my own business that I created) the whole time, and left all my belongings in a house that was making my kid sick."
I know now - I can see it clearly - that I couldn't tolerate her victim mode because my mom never left my dad. I left my abusive ex. And it COST ME - big time. And, yes, I kept going back til he ended up having a kid with someone else. So I get it. But I wasn't doing it for reasons of "I can't possibly survive on my own" and "it's too hard." I did it b/c I thought I was supposed to keep our family together no matter the cost -
And so that felt like my mom - like you sacrificed me and my safety so you can stay and "see the good" in him. Or she just couldn't imagine leaving. And so I know I was triggered that day I left that voice memo and was intense.
I guess that's what ex-friend was picking up on.
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 20, 2022 16:25:40 GMT
Yikes, so I think I'm getting somewhere finally - here is what I started saying in response to Alexandra, and it just got long.... but it all seems to be coming back now. And the connections are clear - just having to write though it a bit here.... (anyway, reading more about scape-goating and I would say there is some recognition there - it's not clear cut, but possibly occasional scape goat).. I was the one who was "deep" and contemplative, and "weird" -- my mother once told me that she and my sister are "superficial" and she's okay with that. That is why they had a stronger bond or something. Weird convo, I don't remember details but she clearly always identified more with my sister, kind of "lived through her" and approved of her more - my sister's path was more mainstream, straight and narrow, etc. Married a guy with money, settled in the suburbs, always looked "hot" - looks were a big thing for my mom. She was always embarrassed of how I looked or hyperaware if I gained any weight. If I think about ex-friend or LTR - the only thing that comes up is that they liked to be kind of surfacey too. Particularly with ex-friend there was this "Hey, let's go out to dinner" and get out a little -- meanwhile it was like her life was a war zone. And then frustration with me b/c I had too much going on to ever meet. I'm not someone who prioritizes socializing if my life is a war zone. LTR did this too. Like, 'oh yeah that? let's not look at that right now, but let's go to that new mexican restaurant. or this folk festival." And so it always set up this weird dynamic like I was the grown-up serious one who was no fun. (Hi Mom) -- But I tend to have this dynamic with a lot of people. If I think about it, though, all three of them could be pretty avoidant and ADHD-like. They moved fast, little time for reflection, avoided themselves in a big way. And then that shone a light on me of like -what is it that you do? You're different. And I made it mean, I'm not fun, light-hearted, easy. I'm too much of a pain to be around b/c I make people look at shit. I don't know about ex-friend, but I do now recall that LTR and my mom would ALWAYS tell white lies. One time LTR wanted me to tell a white lie TO my mom and I lost my mind. I felt like I deactivated. That was kind of their MO - to be in this chronic survival mode and if I was like "Hey there's a better way, let's sit and talk about it or try to get you help, etc" I was resisted and a little strange -- and obviously the one with the issue. So I guess for me there was a compulsion to "fix" - and they could be fixed. I really think that is the heart of my dynamic. I am aware that with ex-friend if I could get her to "leave the bad guy" it would definitely provide something for me (around my mom in an abusive marriage with my dad). So while I've definitely had my dad dynamics - (which were very different and really not what came up with LTR and ex-friend) - these two feel all about mom. It seems pretty clear that if I could get ex-friend to see the abuse in her marriage and take a stand, she'd be "choosing me" ( so clearly a childhood re-enactment) and maybe when she said I got "intense" that day - that she was referring to that. It was something else in the room. And why I keep going back to "some of this was me" - ohhhhhh - and the other piece is that around that time, maybe it was the same day, she kept slipping into victim mode. In one of her voice memos to me, she said "This is hard." And I remember kind of flipping out. I left her a really "firm" for lack of a better word - voice memo back saying "You can do hard things. I ___________________" and went on to say I worked full time (at my own business that I created) the whole time, and left all my belongings in a house that was making my kid sick." I know now - I can see it clearly - that I couldn't tolerate her victim mode because my mom never left my dad. I left my abusive ex. And it COST ME - big time. And, yes, I kept going back til he ended up having a kid with someone else. So I get it. But I wasn't doing it for reasons of "I can't possibly survive on my own" and "it's too hard." I did it b/c I thought I was supposed to keep our family together no matter the cost - And so that felt like my mom - like you sacrificed me and my safety so you can stay and "see the good" in him. Or she just couldn't imagine leaving. And so I know I was triggered that day I left that voice memo and was intense. I guess that's what ex-friend was picking up on. Wow…this is GREAT insight…I like how you just let it free flow and then you found the connections. 🙂. BTW…congratulations for all you have accomplished and how you chose not to be a victim in your life. 🌸
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Post by seeking on Mar 20, 2022 16:31:23 GMT
Wow…this is GREAT insight…I like how you just let it free flow and then you found the connections. 🙂. BTW…congratulations for all you have accomplished and how you chose not to be a victim in your life. 🌸 Thanks! I think the floodgate has opened, lol. I might have more free form writing coming now that I can spot it more. Don't expect anyone to read through it all - but in case it helps anyone. Definitely helps me. And also appreciate that you've read it and I feel seen. Thank you!
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Post by seeking on Mar 20, 2022 16:39:02 GMT
So I was just lying in bed after I wrote that and this uncomfortable truth came up.
There is something in my demand of boundaries from people. I was just about to write my mother and sister. Neither of them work and have flexible schedules. My mom unfortunately was forced to retire due to an injury - and, yes, my sister has 3 kids. But they can't commit to events/get togethers. And it drives me nuts. I have a super tight schedule and it's like there is no acknowledgement of that. It's like "Whatever, here goes Seeking again." Typical.
But I'm seeing this same kind of "gestalt" in the relationships with LTR and ex-friend. I was the one demanding boundaries. And, yet, their lack of boundaries seemed to work for me too. Like I knew I could call LTR last-minute and if he could, he'd give me a ride somewhere. Like with my mom - I want the boundaries, but there have been times when I've needed a quick loan or money and she was there for me. Not that those two things are mutually exclusive.
So there was this "Hey have boundaries!" and "Hey I'm a little needy" which would lead to some vulnerability from me. Like I didn't walk the talk. And I was "found out."
I don't know *what that is* exactly, but it's the first time I've finally been able to put a finger on that very specific dynamic I've always felt - even with my sister. I'm never really needy with my sister. I can be with my mom - and I have been with ex-friend and LTR. But I always think, if I ever REALLY was desperate, my sister is probably who I'd go to b/c - we're blood. And that feels exceptionally vulnerable - like she'd see through the "facade" that I uphold our relationship to a certain standard.
Which is interesting b/c it leaves me to think that with ex-friend and LTR there is an "I'm just like you" quality - but "I don't want you to know that." And that makes me feel pretty darn uncomfortable - not sure what that is. But I think it's the specific thing that leads to the longing and loneliness I can feel without them in my life.
And why I don't have that with, say, another close friend - another close friend doesn't always look at her stuff, doesn't address things, rarely thinks about dynamics with her family - she just kind of does her adulting, gets through, has lots of boundaries. She's lovely. But there's not the "I'm just like you." feeling. I don't have the same compelling feelings around her.... (Same with another male friend who is like that)
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Post by seeking on Mar 20, 2022 17:27:08 GMT
Gah.
This may turn into a novel so feel free to NOT read all this but I think I need to keep writing while things are coming into view and the iron is hot.
I wrote above: "But I think it's the specific thing that leads to the longing and loneliness I can feel without them in my life."
And that loneliness seems to have a very specific feeling to it - like it's an "I'll need someone to lean on, depend on, be there in my worst times" and the feeling of not having that hums through my life. Sometimes it's very strong, and other times it's barely perceptible. But it feels vulnerable. Kind of like if you're a teen who is in trouble, you have certain people you can go to who won't judge you or will just be there because they get it. And it feels safer that way.
That's how LTR and ex-friend were. Like in my mind, even if I didn't call on them - I had a feeling like I could. Not because they were the most stand-up person but more because I think they had so much of their own stuff, and lacked some boundaries, they wouldn't judge me or they had a need of their own to "save" someone.
Yes, that's what this is about - it's like needing to be saved.
And I can't ask that of my healthier (seemingly healthier) friends.
I think both of them entered the scene with their own "needing to be saved" with me - (YEP. THIS IS IT) - LTR through his "love addiction" and ex-friend through her divorce drama. And in that, there was this implication of "If I need to be saved" then you'd be there. Although when it was my turn, it didn't always work out that way - yet they did do things toward that end. And I was then able to maintain this kind of fantasy of if something ever happens to me, I have my "person" --
I keep kind of dissociating a bit as I'm writing this so it's hard to keep focus.... but I don't have this with other friends or a (tribe) because it's sort of an implied boundary that I wouldn't go there with them. Or, I don't know what it is. Not the same fantasy/compulsion.
I think it's this idea of "needing to be saved" that is synonymous with the "void" for me. (Which is why I was so curious earlier how other people think of it).
And maybe the phrase "needing to be saved" isn't as accurate - or conjures images of like I'm stuck in a rut somewhere and have to be pulled out. It's more like "from my feelings of emptiness and helplessness."
A few years ago - well 6 or so - I got very sick. It was a really strange thing. I had major panic attacks, feelings of my throat closing, horrible allergic reactions, feelings I would pass out, couldn't not access a sense of safety no matter what, had to go on xanax - I spiraled really quickly. What set it off was my ex starting a new job and basically abandoning us - he and I weren't together than anyway, but he was still taking our kid a couple nights a week - which I guess gave me some semblance of a feeling that we could rely on him, etc. And when he picked up and couldn't care less if I had coverage and threatened me about it, I got super "sick" for 18 months. Like nearly landed in a hospital. It was severe.
(My sister went through the same thing years later and tried to rely on me during that time; yet, she was nowhere to be found when I was going through that).
Not an important detail but I guess worth mentioning, I reached out to a very ex-BF. He was there *immediately* after all these years and he was writing a book on trauma. He was like "Oh, you have PTSD - this is trauma." I was like "No it's not. I'm very sick." But whatever my body was doing had me convinced it was a physical illness, and in many ways it was, but I believe the underlying reason was deeply psychological. I would go around with this horror of feeling like I could just die and no one could help me. There was this horrible alienation/isolation of "no one can reach ne - I'm going to lose my mind and people will put me away and no one can help." I had this pact with a friend that he wouldn't let that happen to me.
But I think what got triggered (and I don't really know where this came from - as I imagine it would be good find out) is this sense of "I'm really all alone." There was no one there. And the stuff I was going through at that time was nothing anyone I knew could relate to (except my ex boyfriend from long ago but his own stuff got triggered and he was interested in saving me for his own reasons). He actually came all the way out to see me and I was so overweight then and looked awful (nothing like who I was when he knew me years back) I think he lost interest.
But I remember this deep panic. And these feelings of being so lost and helpless that no one can help me. I remember having images of being somewhere with my parents and losing my parents and not even being able to ask for help or assist myself in any way to getting help. It was like the worst epitome of helplessness <--- which is the wound. This is it. I don't know where it came from or what to do with it.
I would get this driving on highways. Something would trigger me into feeling this way, and I'd immediately feel like I was going to pass out and if I couldn't get to the shoulder fast enough, it would totally flip me out. So I stopped driving on highways. Now it's a different aspect of driving. There is something about feeling "trapped" or trapped with this feeling that I can't tolerate.
I noticed when I was driving, if I thought of my ex-friend (at the time we were friends), it would be soothing and I would feel less anxiety. Just knowing she was however many miles away or could come to me if I needed her to (and probably would) soothed the anxiety. It's as if it was a severe separation anxiety (like what my daughter is experiencing now).
Whatever was going on in the dynamics with my ex-friend and LTR - as frustrating as they were, I think there was something deep down - this part of me holding that wound - that felt "met" in some way.
I guess this is what happens in relationships where we are so compelled by someone else unconsciously. I keep wanting to call it a trauma bond. But it's not. But it is? (My teacher talks about that in our supervision group - we don't want to be in a "trauma bond" with our clients and approach them like they need to be fixed) - but I know that's typically not how people think of trauma bonding. I guess it's nothing more than extreme co-dependence. Maybe a little of what Melody writes about in Love Addiction? Not sure I haven't read that book in so long.
Anyway, this is huge. I'm sure more will come. I can't tell you how grateful I am for all of you and this space. And your wisdom and support. And I can't believe I just poured the deepest recesses of my soul out here on the internet, lol. But this is amazing to have really finally named this and see more of its roots.
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Post by seeking on Mar 20, 2022 17:43:03 GMT
Ohhhh... I think I keep thinking "trauma bond" and what I mean is fantasy bond. I'm reading about it now, but I think that is more fitting.
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Post by seeking on Mar 20, 2022 17:54:46 GMT
I think my dad had a fantasy bond with me. And once he realized I can't be there - literally can't (he gets that I'm single) and I don't have a lot of "supply" for him, he has no use for me. He hasn't talked to me in months.
I hate to think that I thought of LTR and ex-friend as "supply" but I guess it is different from narcissist supply and fantasy bond-type "you fit into this role" and give me security.
Gosh this is crazy. I can't believe I'm getting to this.
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Post by alexandra on Mar 20, 2022 18:47:47 GMT
In regards to the "void," no. Not everyone has it. And some people have it insatiably and can't find ways to deal with it at all (because of their own fears of broaching it, it being too painful, and even due to dissociation). But I think the "void" is ultimately distrust. It may be distrust in yourself, others, or both, and then horrible discomfort because you either need to trust others or yourself to survive, depending on how old you are and where you're at in life. As you grow up, it's truly always BOTH you need to trust, but it's primarily trusting others and as you grow, it should evolve to be more and more about trusting yourself. And my hypothesis in general for insecure attachment is that when you can't trust in a healthy way, it causes cognitive dissonance, pain, and defense and coping mechanisms (such as the attachment style pattern) that layer over the void and make it difficult to understand. That's why it's so important to be able to do what you just did, and give it words, verbalize it, be able to understand your own narrative.
I can be a little bit off about suggesting a scapegoat dynamic, I don't have all the facts, I wasn't there. But I think calling the dynamic out instead as having close family members creating fantasy bonds and feeling a need to save them (and perhaps hoping for someone to save you yourself too?) makes a lot of sense. And I also think it's a very important insight that you've realized you only feel that need with certain people. Only a few people activate you, and the ones who don't have issues mirroring your upbringing in one way or another do NOT stir all these emotions up. But this is good, because as said before, it points you to where the healing work still is.
I'm sure this is painful and the vulnerability a little scary for you, but you ARE getting somewhere. Putting all the pieces together is important. It doesn't fix it all immediately, so be patient with yourself, but it's building a foundation to get there.
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Post by seeking on Mar 20, 2022 21:34:49 GMT
Thanks for all your help Alexandra, I feel like your questions and promptings were really instrumental.
I'm not sure if "fantasy bond" is right either (now that I'm reading about it). It's definitely *something* but I don't have the language to know what. I can see more clearly what happened with ex-friend, and LTR, and the people that stir that up. And that it seems to be something about being "saved" and feeling trapped in a helplessness. Like in a place where no one can reach me.
But I don't know what to call it, and I'm not entirely clear on what happened in my family to instill it. But`, yes, getting there.
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