|
|
Post by seeking on Mar 20, 2022 21:38:01 GMT
But yeah - the void is distrust.
Alexandra - can you say more about that? Distrust in what? I don't trust anyone to ________________. I don't trust myself to _______________.
What?
Because I think that's helping me dig down more into what I'm describing as "I'm in a place where no one can reach me" and it's terrifying. It feels like an abandonment - like a very early, deep existential fear of I can't exist without this "other" and that "other" isn't there and no one can help me. (I'm wondering if something happened to me as a baby/early on that is preverbal or not in my conscious memory)
|
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Mar 21, 2022 0:21:59 GMT
I can't quite answer that for you. Different people had different experiences growing up, so your triggers will be different. But I think it's ultimately tied into, trust them (or yourself) to be safe people, trust in everyone's understanding of acknowledging and potentially fulfilling your needs / having healthy boundaries around those needs, and trusting you can survive and will be okay.
|
|
|
|
Post by usernametaken on Mar 21, 2022 1:07:25 GMT
I've read through everything and you can 100% ignore this if you feel it doesn't apply. You've said before you identify as FA so I'm going from that perspective.
I'm not saying at all that your friendships are healthy or without problems but it does seem you slam your boundaries down like brick walls. Which is 100% understandable from where you are coming from. When we do this, we block any chance of a friendship growing or improving. And we could be pushing out people who could have a mutually fufuilling friendship with us.
None of our friends are perfect or going to get it right all the time. They are also going to have their own defenses go up when they slam into our walls.
Now ideally this is going to be a two way street and you will find people in your life where they are already secure or willing to do the work with you.
But just remember, some people want to be there for us, and want to connect. We need to show and tell them how to care for us.
My best friend is FA and hurt me immensely over the years to the point where I had to move her out of my close inner circle but I didn't cut her out of my life. I loved her but knew she was going to keep hurting me, so I demoted her importance in my life. She surprised me though that in the last year she stepped up and with us both doing counselling for our own stuff we are communicating deeply and have learned how to show up for each other. She needs space, I need assurance. We both try to honor those needs and when we fail we tell the other gently hey that hurts.
|
|
|
|
Post by seeking on Mar 21, 2022 1:14:30 GMT
I can't quite answer that for you. Different people had different experiences growing up, so your triggers will be different. But I think it's ultimately tied into, trust them (or yourself) to be safe people, trust in everyone's understanding of acknowledging and potentially fulfilling your needs / having healthy boundaries around those needs, and trusting you can survive and will be okay. Thanks. And, yes, I didn't mean to answer for me - more like "What are my choices?" Because I draw a blank otherwise. And if you feel like giving examples of these things, I'm like a Kindergartener right now, lol |
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Mar 21, 2022 1:49:52 GMT
That's okay. Those were my example though! I feel like they're the most universal.
|
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Mar 21, 2022 4:19:06 GMT
I've read through everything and you can 100% ignore this if you feel it doesn't apply. You've said before you identify as FA so I'm going from that perspective. I'm not saying at all that your friendships are healthy or without problems but it does seem you slam your boundaries down like brick walls. Which is 100% understandable from where you are coming from. When we do this, we block any chance of a friendship growing or improving. And we could be pushing out people who could have a mutually fufuilling friendship with us. None of our friends are perfect or going to get it right all the time. They are also going to have their own defenses go up when they slam into our walls. Now ideally this is going to be a two way street and you will find people in your life where they are already secure or willing to do the work with you. But just remember, some people want to be there for us, and want to connect. We need to show and tell them how to care for us. My best friend is FA and hurt me immensely over the years to the point where I had to move her out of my close inner circle but I didn't cut her out of my life. I loved her but knew she was going to keep hurting me, so I demoted her importance in my life. She surprised me though that in the last year she stepped up and with us both doing counselling for our own stuff we are communicating deeply and have learned how to show up for each other. She needs space, I need assurance. We both try to honor those needs and when we fail we tell the other gently hey that hurts. I find the boundary topic so interesting….because my mom, who I believe is FA, but leans more DA has very strong boundaries…to the point that in order to have any chance with her…I had zippo boundaries as a kid. It was like a landmind growing up….so many times I had no clue I crossed one of her boundaries until I felt the anger/disappointment from her. I developed this horrible enmeshment with her. The only way I broke free was learning where I ended “physically” (through my SE therapy) which has allowed me to not take her stuff personally anymore. |
|
|
|
Post by seeking on Mar 21, 2022 12:26:50 GMT
I find the boundary topic so interesting….because my mom, who I believe is FA, but leans more DA has very strong boundaries…to the point that in order to have any chance with her…I had zippo boundaries as a kid. It was like a landmind growing up….so many times I had no clue I crossed one of her boundaries until I felt the anger/disappointment from her. I developed this horrible enmeshment with her. The only way I broke free was learning where I ended “physically” (through my SE therapy) which has allowed me to not take her stuff personally anymore. These don't sound like healthy boundaries. Not that that's what you're saying. But healthy boundaries are where our anger/aggression is channeled and keeps us safe. When you say "very strong boundaries" I wonder if there is something else there that they were instead - i.e., "lots of hoops to jump through" "inconsistent expectations," etc. Boundaries are interesting. I'm doing them now better than I ever have and it feels more instinctive, natural. |
|
|
|
Post by seeking on Mar 21, 2022 12:28:48 GMT
I've read through everything and you can 100% ignore this if you feel it doesn't apply. You've said before you identify as FA so I'm going from that perspective. I'm not saying at all that your friendships are healthy or without problems but it does seem you slam your boundaries down like brick walls. Which is 100% understandable from where you are coming from. When we do this, we block any chance of a friendship growing or improving. And we could be pushing out people who could have a mutually fufuilling friendship with us. None of our friends are perfect or going to get it right all the time. They are also going to have their own defenses go up when they slam into our walls. Now ideally this is going to be a two way street and you will find people in your life where they are already secure or willing to do the work with you. But just remember, some people want to be there for us, and want to connect. We need to show and tell them how to care for us. My best friend is FA and hurt me immensely over the years to the point where I had to move her out of my close inner circle but I didn't cut her out of my life. I loved her but knew she was going to keep hurting me, so I demoted her importance in my life. She surprised me though that in the last year she stepped up and with us both doing counselling for our own stuff we are communicating deeply and have learned how to show up for each other. She needs space, I need assurance. We both try to honor those needs and when we fail we tell the other gently hey that hurts. I'm not sure if it applies or not. Can you give an example where I slam my boundaries down like brick walls? I don't know that I really have fixed enough boundaries to slam down. They're more me in the moment operating within my environment and with my own capacity, if that makes sense. Some days I have capacity. Others I don't. |
|
|
|
Post by seeking on Mar 21, 2022 12:32:13 GMT
I can't quite answer that for you. Different people had different experiences growing up, so your triggers will be different. But I think it's ultimately tied into, trust them (or yourself) to be safe people, trust in everyone's understanding of acknowledging and potentially fulfilling your needs / having healthy boundaries around those needs, and trusting you can survive and will be okay. Yes, like this " trust in everyone's understanding of acknowledging and potentially fulfilling your needs / having healthy boundaries around those needs," Curious if anyone has an example of what this looks like? It's too abstract for my brain. I do not trust I will survive/be okay. That is already a big part of this. Thank you for naming it. |
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Mar 21, 2022 13:59:03 GMT
I find the boundary topic so interesting….because my mom, who I believe is FA, but leans more DA has very strong boundaries…to the point that in order to have any chance with her…I had zippo boundaries as a kid. It was like a landmind growing up….so many times I had no clue I crossed one of her boundaries until I felt the anger/disappointment from her. I developed this horrible enmeshment with her. The only way I broke free was learning where I ended “physically” (through my SE therapy) which has allowed me to not take her stuff personally anymore. These don't sound like healthy boundaries. Not that that's what you're saying. But healthy boundaries are where our anger/aggression is channeled and keeps us safe. When you say "very strong boundaries" I wonder if there is something else there that they were instead - i.e., "lots of hoops to jump through" "inconsistent expectations," etc. Boundaries are interesting. I'm doing them now better than I ever have and it feels more instinctive, natural. They were not healthy boundaries at all…they were/are walls…..but she is insecure and has never gone to therapy…so this is how she is. She doesn’t trust herself, she doesn’t trust others and her walls keep her protected…but imagine being a child in that dynamic. It was very disfunctional. A boundary isn’t necessarily about anger/aggression being channeled. It is…a property line….it says where I end and you begin. That is why my secure friends have flexible boundaries….they trust themselves and have an overall trustworthy perspective of others. I am learning so much from them because I too have had a tendency towards walls or nothing….and yes…my walls were associated to a rage I had about my mom…but behind that was a statement….you want something from me that I can’t or don’t want to give you….and my boundaries had not only walls but moats…like a castle. The issue is….while it felt like it protected me….it kept other people who meant me no harm….out. I wasn’t using any sort of reason to determine if a person was safe…it was all based on my nervous system and distrust. But it was in SE therapy that I discovered I had no real sense of myself physically in space…I had no actually understanding of where I ended and other person began…so no wonder I had walls…no wonder everything my mom said felt “personal”…because I was enmeshed with her. Now….through my therapy…I know who I am…and I am learning to trust myself and others. I don’t get it right all the time…but it feels so freeing…not to take in everything from everone…especially my mom. It is fantastic to no longer put up walls all the time. |
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Mar 21, 2022 14:18:53 GMT
I've read through everything and you can 100% ignore this if you feel it doesn't apply. You've said before you identify as FA so I'm going from that perspective. I'm not saying at all that your friendships are healthy or without problems but it does seem you slam your boundaries down like brick walls. Which is 100% understandable from where you are coming from. When we do this, we block any chance of a friendship growing or improving. And we could be pushing out people who could have a mutually fufuilling friendship with us. None of our friends are perfect or going to get it right all the time. They are also going to have their own defenses go up when they slam into our walls. Now ideally this is going to be a two way street and you will find people in your life where they are already secure or willing to do the work with you. But just remember, some people want to be there for us, and want to connect. We need to show and tell them how to care for us. My best friend is FA and hurt me immensely over the years to the point where I had to move her out of my close inner circle but I didn't cut her out of my life. I loved her but knew she was going to keep hurting me, so I demoted her importance in my life. She surprised me though that in the last year she stepped up and with us both doing counselling for our own stuff we are communicating deeply and have learned how to show up for each other. She needs space, I need assurance. We both try to honor those needs and when we fail we tell the other gently hey that hurts. I'm not sure if it applies or not. Can you give an example where I slam my boundaries down like brick walls? I don't know that I really have fixed enough boundaries to slam down. They're more me in the moment operating within my environment and with my own capacity, if that makes sense. Some days I have capacity. Others I don't. Capacity is tied to trust…if you do not have capacity….you do not trust either you or the other person or both of you with regards to your property line. Consider your property line as movable…some days…when you have capacity…it is far out and you trust yourself and the other person to respect that line…to not let another person cross over it or have the other person cross it. When you capacity is low…your boundary is much closer in…and due to your nervous system being triggered…you are more protective of that line. It makes sense. Here is an example of a wall slamming….yep…my mom…..so I was going through a personal issue and I called my mom to talk about it. I made a very innocent comment and she immediately tells me that I am being rude/selfish and she can’t talk any more and hung up. That was her wall. I knew it…I knew I had not done anything to deserve her hanging up….and a few days later she apologized. My mom does a horrible job with regulating her nervous system….so her nervous system is often going off…so her capacity becomes low, her boundaries become tight and her walls go slamming down on us. Now, I ask….do you have capacity to talk? Are you in a good place? Because like I said…I have had enmeshment issues with my mom…and although I now know and trust where I end and she begins…she doesn’t. She still views me through a lens of distrust…thus tight boundaries in anticipation of me expecting something from her that she cannot provide or doesn’t want to. But it is getting better because I am changing my dynamic with her. |
|
|
|
Post by seeking on Mar 21, 2022 16:03:33 GMT
They were not healthy boundaries at all…they were/are walls…..but she is insecure and has never gone to therapy…so this is how she is. She doesn’t trust herself, she doesn’t trust others and her walls keep her protected…but imagine being a child in that dynamic. It was very disfunctional. A boundary isn’t necessarily about anger/aggression being channeled. It is…a property line….it says where I end and you begin. That is why my secure friends have flexible boundaries….they trust themselves and have an overall trustworthy perspective of others. I am learning so much from them because I too have had a tendency towards walls or nothing….and yes…my walls were associated to a rage I had about my mom…but behind that was a statement….you want something from me that I can’t or don’t want to give you….and my boundaries had not only walls but moats…like a castle. The issue is….while it felt like it protected me….it kept other people who meant me no harm….out. I wasn’t using any sort of reason to determine if a person was safe…it was all based on my nervous system and distrust. But it was in SE therapy that I discovered I had no real sense of myself physically in space…I had no actually understanding of where I ended and other person began…so no wonder I had walls…no wonder everything my mom said felt “personal”…because I was enmeshed with her. Now….through my therapy…I know who I am…and I am learning to trust myself and others. I don’t get it right all the time…but it feels so freeing…not to take in everything from everone…especially my mom. It is fantastic to no longer put up walls all the time. I do think all boundaries start with healthy aggression. I think our culture has a lot of "baggage" around the words aggression and anger. I do trauma work (as a practitioner and also as a client) and a boundary is always from our very life-force. And that includes healthy aggression. "I am this and not that." "I want this and not that." "Stay over there and not here." All has healthy aggression in it. Otherwise, we are caved in or "vomiting out" (for lack of a better word). I know we can all go on to talk about boundaries for miles. And I'm happy to do it - though I want to stay the course with these particular discoveries I've made, and these friends. Not to be "all about me" but it helps my brain to learn how to apply what is being shared to my situation or predicament. I think what I'm extracting from this is a possible "lack of self" - self precedes boundaries. And I think what I'm describing (this "void") is a "no me". I have explicitly stated this, but I brought it up in this thread - I'm dealing with a very severe driving anxiety that isn't really about driving, it's more a kind of agoraphobia - like certain parts of the driving experience are feel so unsafe, I feel like I will go into collapse (nervous system freeze/collapse). And while I'm actively working on this in therapy - I've gleaned that a lot of it can feel like aggressive boundaries and feeling boundaryless (me - in a vehicle). Basically I lose a sense of myself. It's terrifying. So to tie it back into what I have been tracking, I feel like I'm missing a big part of my self (this void). But I'm going to read what you wrote below after my next meeting as I think it ties it together more. Thank you so much for all of this discussion. It's immensely helpful! |
|
|
|
Post by seeking on Mar 21, 2022 19:18:52 GMT
I'm not sure if it applies or not. Can you give an example where I slam my boundaries down like brick walls? I don't know that I really have fixed enough boundaries to slam down. They're more me in the moment operating within my environment and with my own capacity, if that makes sense. Some days I have capacity. Others I don't. .yep…my mom…..so I was going through a personal issue and I called my mom to talk about it. I made a very innocent comment and she immediately tells me that I am being rude/selfish and she can’t talk any more and hung up. That was her wall. I knew it…I knew I had not done anything to deserve her hanging up….and a few days later she apologized. My mom does a horrible job with regulating her nervous system….so her nervous system is often going off…so her capacity becomes low, her boundaries become tight and her walls go slamming down on us. Now, I ask….do you have capacity to talk? Are you in a good place? Because like I said…I have had enmeshment issues with my mom…and although I now know and trust where I end and she begins…she doesn’t. She still views me through a lens of distrust…thus tight boundaries in anticipation of me expecting something from her that she cannot provide or doesn’t want to. But it is getting better because I am changing my dynamic with her. I guess I don't tend to think of these as boundaries, but more triggers/shut down. I have experienced this with both my parents - especially my dad who has hung up on me in great times of need. I could say that was his "boundary" but I think it's his self-protection/unavailability toward certain things. Being unavailable is different (for me) than having walls. |
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Mar 21, 2022 20:05:07 GMT
.yep…my mom…..so I was going through a personal issue and I called my mom to talk about it. I made a very innocent comment and she immediately tells me that I am being rude/selfish and she can’t talk any more and hung up. That was her wall. I knew it…I knew I had not done anything to deserve her hanging up….and a few days later she apologized. My mom does a horrible job with regulating her nervous system….so her nervous system is often going off…so her capacity becomes low, her boundaries become tight and her walls go slamming down on us. Now, I ask….do you have capacity to talk? Are you in a good place? Because like I said…I have had enmeshment issues with my mom…and although I now know and trust where I end and she begins…she doesn’t. She still views me through a lens of distrust…thus tight boundaries in anticipation of me expecting something from her that she cannot provide or doesn’t want to. But it is getting better because I am changing my dynamic with her. I guess I don't tend to think of these as boundaries, but more triggers/shut down. I have experienced this with both my parents - especially my dad who has hung up on me in great times of need. I could say that was his "boundary" but I think it's his self-protection/unavailability toward certain things. Being unavailable is different (for me) than having walls. I am curious how you define someone’s unavailability as separate from their boundaries. I actually see them as being tied together. I think having walls prevents being available….which again I think comes back to trust of self and/or trust of others. I used to think my mom was unavailable…but now I just think she has poor self regulation and poor application of boundaries. But I am fine with us having different takes on this. |
|
|
|
Post by seeking on Mar 21, 2022 20:38:42 GMT
I guess I don't tend to think of these as boundaries, but more triggers/shut down. I have experienced this with both my parents - especially my dad who has hung up on me in great times of need. I could say that was his "boundary" but I think it's his self-protection/unavailability toward certain things. Being unavailable is different (for me) than having walls. I am curious how you define someone’s unavailability as separate from their boundaries. I actually see them as being tied together. I think having walls prevents being available….which again I think comes back to trust of self and/or trust of others. I used to think my mom was unavailable…but now I just think she has poor self regulation and poor application of boundaries. But I am fine with us having different takes on this. Maybe it's just a matter of semantics. When I talk about boundaries, I'm talking about being skillful not what we "default" to given the state of our nervous system. For example, I just had an ex-friend (not THE ex-friend) text me to ask me for book recommendations. She knows what I do for a living and I'm sensing she's indirectly asking for help. I am not willing to help her. She is toxic for me, and overwhelms me (and most people around her). Our daughters are friends. They reconnected last summer, and I was very leery to get back involved, but I set a clear intention that there would be limited contact with her. And we've been able to maintain that. When I dropped her daughter off a few weeks ago, I could feel her trying to lure me back in to her sagas and drama. I want nothing to do with it. So my texts back to her today were very simple answers. I did not engage her further. That takes some skill (for me) - I would either have fewer boundaries, and have more sympathy, engage her more, or be sort of apologetic. Or I might avoid her completely and fear texting her and getting sucked back in (*** I'll come back to this) But instead, I was very aware of what I was doing - it was a "grayrock" response. *** but if I'm someone who is very unhealthy and dysregulated, and I don't even know what a boundary is, my nervous system would dictate that for me - i.e., shut down - not respond, get irritated (etc) - like the example we're using with our parents. That's not skillful. That's just "default" and something there's not a lot of consciousness or skill around. In a similar vein, it may be a relational style - avoidant. I sense a demand, I shut down. With my friend, I'm not operating from that place. I used to operate from that place. 2 years ago, I would have felt overwhelmed by her text and shut down and then ruminated about how to respond or not respond or feared her wrath or engulfment (this comes from relating to my dad). That's not a boundary - me not responding to her in that case is something I can't even control. But being aware of the dynamic, knowing what I want and don't want and saying "The line is here" is, to me, what a boundary is. In our parents case - I'll speak with regard to my dad. "I hear you're upset. I know you need something more than I can give right now. I'm sorry I can't give that to you." That's a skillful response to a situation - a boundary. Just hanging up because the person is triggered into fear or overwhelm is not something I would call a boundary - it's a shut down. It's like a reflexive response, not a conscious intentional one. |
|
