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Post by seeking on Mar 18, 2022 19:11:38 GMT
The other thing I want to name here is that both LTR and my friend kind of raised me up right away - like I was to be admired, or given power or put on some pedestal that I didn't ask for. And then when I needed something it felt vulnerable, like a parent asking a 3 year old for help with something. Or like the "facade" of me having it all together had to uncomfortably lift.
More coming. This is very helpful for me to take apart and look at a bit. Thanks for the feedback.
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Post by alexandra on Mar 18, 2022 19:12:59 GMT
I think a part of me felt some reassurance or certainty in knowing I'd "never be abandoned by them" and then shocked by their walled-offedness. Does that make sense? This makes sense. And on your end, it requires another shift in your own perspective. Neediness can't be used as a way to measure risk of abandonment. The growth on your end here is to get to a point where if someone "abandons" you, you know you will still be okay so there's nothing to actually fear. There may be some pain and disappointment, but you will process it and survive and be fine. That takes the pressure off, so that you're not choosing friends and relationships based on what's actually their unhealthy red flags (neediness is emotional instability due to lack of ability to self-regulate). The only way to choose people who won't abandon you is to observe their consistency over long periods of time as you get to know them. If they are just present for you, without all the up and down and intensity, that's a much better indicator they won't "abandon" you. Which doesn't mean you don't have a strong connection, it's just not a co-dependent or unequal roller coaster. It's calm and dependable.
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 18, 2022 20:44:00 GMT
I think all insecures start off with a fantasy of how the other person will be…..which is why things tend to feel “rushed” and “love bombed”….heck, I did that with B….I was completely “in love” with him before I knew 1 single thing about him. I did not realize that what I fell in love with was a story I created in my head….an idealized version of what I thought he was. Depending on where we are in our journey….as the other person shows us who he/she truly is…there are 3 reactions….hold fiercely to the fantasy, start planning an escape or adapt to the new information. Unfortunately…most insecurely attached individuals will go forward with the first 2. That is why things start off so amazing and then the pulling away starts to happen. Remember that due to trauma….FAs have both overactive and underactive nervous system responses. Also…and this is really key….the responses are not so much about you as what the signals are from inside the FA. You could do everything right….you could not be triggering at all…and still the internal FA nervous system will go into high or low gear. The best thing you can do is recognize how you feel and see whether the relationship is one that is still adding value. YES! This is exactly what it was like with LTR (not my ex/father of my kid, just distinguishing there - he was the opposite). And friend is a third person here in this discussion. But LTR was so hot and heavy and fast in the beginning, even if I weren't insecure (and tending toward avoidant in that dynamic), it would be a red flag. Yet, I liked him. And I just kept trying to get him to "do work" to adjust his overwhelmingness so that I could actually be with him. But I also had an "insecurity" (which is maybe a reality) that it wasn't ME he liked. He didn't even know me. I just filled a slot. Then I got a lot of criticism from a codependent friend about how relationships shouldn't be that much "WORK" - and what did I want, for him NEVER to call me? Like she couldn't see there was a middle ground. She may have also been a little jealous or projecting her own need to have someone pursuing her. Frankly, it was shutting me down. And my message to LTR was like - I want to be with you but I can't be with you when you're smooshing me. And suffocating me. And I thought there was something wrong with me in that. We went round and round on this. And yet, when he did back off my insecure parts came forward and I would have a lot of anger and even rage and protest. And then cut him off. Yikes. So I cut him off a few times, he begged. Until one time it got so bad that by the time I got the space I needed and felt tenderness toward him again, he was gone. That was it. He'd gotten back together with his ex wife or something. His father died, and he would not let me in - at all. And I was left feeling pretty upset, hurt, no proper ending. No discussion. Kind of like how I feel with my current ex-friend even though that's not how things went necessarily in our relationship. But all that to say that what remained was like how could LTR be soo incredibly hot and heavy and needing of me and then just shut off. I think a part of me felt some reassurance or certainty in knowing I'd "never be abandoned by them" and then shocked by their walled-offedness. Does that make sense? Yes it does…it happened to me….not in a ghosting way like it sounds like your LTR did….but the break up was so one sided. My therapist and I spoke about it and it turned out it wasn’t about feeling abandoned….but having no say/no choice in the matter…which was exactly what happened when my parents divorced. B had been praying and mulling it over for weeks without letting me know. So she and I have been working through that feeling of having no choice and how to ensure I have choice in future relationships…which requires open and honest communication.
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Post by seeking on Mar 18, 2022 22:46:08 GMT
Yes it does…it happened to me….not in a ghosting way like it sounds like your LTR did….but the break up was so one sided. My therapist and I spoke about it and it turned out it wasn’t about feeling abandoned….but having no say/no choice in the matter…which was exactly what happened when my parents divorced. B had been praying and mulling it over for weeks without letting me know. So she and I have been working through that feeling of having no choice and how to ensure I have choice in future relationships…which requires open and honest communication. This is really good. This is definitely a lot about what happened for me. Although, I tend to want to "fix" things - and they were able to just close the door on even an ending, never-mind fixing. I don't know if I've actually ever done that in my life? I'll go back and read the posts and catch up here.
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Post by seeking on Mar 18, 2022 23:48:04 GMT
So maybe what that part want is something “deeper”…..less friends, but ones who will go the mile with you. Maybe your closet is too full of unequal friendships and some pruning is in order. Carve out some time to think more about this….there is a book I read once called running on empty and it was a guy who had every day filled to the brim and just felt to empty by it. I think there is a delicate balance between others and self. I had to sit down and figure out which friendship were fulfilling and which ones were draining…same thing with activities. I have to think about this more but just to help me remember some insight I had earlier that felt spot on but the day was busy and I don't want it to get lost ... Is that I don't have abandonment necessarily from LTR or these friends. I think you named it earlier talking about feeling like you didn't have a choice, and that being kind of traumatic - like not seeing it coming and then suddenly it's gone, and processing that. Which I guess is what I'm trying to do here. But I think the particularly "stickiness" for me is around someone kind of "holding" (that's the word that comes up) life with me. There is too much on me. I have to finally admit that. I'm doing it all. I'm a Capricorn. I will do it all and even more. But I know I can't sustain this. I've known for years. My adrenals are burned out. I'm not joyful. I'm disconnected from myself in many ways to "get through" - and that disconnection to myself creates a lot of self-abandonment. What I feel "empty" and "lonely" for is someone else to be IN life with me. I'm over it. And a lot of times I do feel isolated from the people in my life because I simply can't relate to their complaining when they have a husband coming home, or a vacation coming up, or help with their kids, etc. It feels even more alienating. And that's it. I just feel so alienated from life - I've developed a lot of fears - I used to travel, and get out there, and then I had my daughter and I still would have done it, but then I went through living hell with her abusive father, and with the pandemic, life feels more fragile. And I guess this friend was meeting me in that place in many ways. She'd complain and it was like yeah - aside from the fact that she had a money source (a trust fund or something) and was shielded from that particular stressor (unlike me), she was going through a divorce, single parenting, etc. She still had way more than I had when I was going through that stuff, but it was way less alienating. My LTR had a kid with issues (like my kid) and he got it in many ways. He struggled with trauma. It was like there were people to be IN IT with... and would do things for each other. I know she'd drive me to a mammogram. I know she'd be there for my kid if I had an emergency. It took the edge off things. I don't think humans are designed to live this way - in complete isolation, cooking every meal alone, eating just with my kid, working for every penny I have and not being able to really take breaks. Or go to bed alone and wake up alarmed by a noise with no one there. Or parent a kid. It's not okay. And I think that friendship made me feel less alone in all that. We both had to navigate the pandemic among a million stresses, and pull our kids out of the same school and deal with the fallout of that - it was huge not to have to do that alone. We both had exes that were so hooked on power and control they would harm the mother of their children (even if just verbally, emotionally, psychologically) (not "just" but..) Most days I go out to talk to the moms at the playground, who are like minded. And I get certain needs met there, but they have no idea what goes on in my personal life and what it's like living the life I have - or working and being the breadwinner and raising a kid with special needs alone. I don't want sympathy or even intend to sound like a victim or want a fix to this - like find a church group, or invite a friend over for dinner. I do all that. I have a "village" so to speak. But it's largely really lonely. And everything I'm responsible for is just way too much. I have an anxious kid who has so many abandonment issues (particularly with her dad) that she won't let me out of her sight. If I leave the house to walk the dog, she has to know where I am and watch me through the window. I have no one here to pass anything off to. So when I'm up at 2 am because I realize the person who came closest (after my LTR or some other folks) in meeting me where I'm at and kind of witnessing my life is gone. Probably for good, it brought me to apparently something from childhood. This really empty lonely feeling I had. And that I have now - and clearly by what I just wrote seems legit. But I truly don't think I'd be feeling it if I had someone meeting me inside of my life if that makes sense. A "we're in this together" person. Days and weeks go by and I can keep distracted from all this. But that night, I couldn't. It was like right there and there was a shock quality to it. So that is what I'm exploring now. How to heal (I guess?) this? What to do about it that doesn't involve "can you ask a friend to watch your kid and go for a walk" - that's not gonna be it. Long term, this isn't sustainable, and I can build all the inner resilience in the world. But something is still missing here.
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Post by seeking on Mar 19, 2022 0:06:09 GMT
It may be as simple as, once you've called them out and indicated you really see them in a non-fantasy way and are attempting to hold them accountable, they feel overwhelming shame. And they can't deal with it. They're aware of their problems but keep avoiding confronting the issues within themselves because it's too painful. So now, it doesn't feel safe with you, not because you did anything wrong but because they are unhealthy and avoiding and you've reminded them their stuff is still there. This is so spot on. LTR had a TON of shame. So did ex-friend. My ex was different. I don't know what he is. Narcissistic/DA, I think. He seemed to need "supply" like an energy vampire and if I had no more to give and needed him to make a change, he was on to the next person that would give - his next victim. (Who he is still with now). So yes, I guess it's a kind of balancing act - who will not call me out. Who will give me comfort/succor. Who can I be a victim with. I had a friend like that for years - when I was not a very healthy person at all and he put up with a LOT of my drama and would gently kind of call me on things. But if he ever really gave me an ultimatum (like he has with other friends) it may have been hard - like you said, Alexandra, not feel safe, and I'd probably avoid him even if it would be a loss for me. But I'm someone whose always wanted to do my work. I found my own therapist the minute I could drive. And my parents had insurance, and I found a way to go to her. And then another. I've been in therapy more than half of my life. I don't relate to that entirely -- avoiding confronting issues, etc. That's all I do. I have a friend now who says some tough things to me - calling me on things in a big way, but I'm thinking that it's more about her actually. And I stay in contact, because I'm like "Sure, bring it on. If I need to hear it I will." It makes sense, I guess with the ex-friend who called me out on being "intense" with her - and I said I will always be intense if you are in imminent threat. And she said it was too much and I gave her a panic attack. And I said, no your life gave you a panic attack. I was just facing you into it. I said other people were alarmed by her behavior - and I named them (there were like 4 people) and I wasn't telling that to hurt her but that I wasn't going to be like them and talk behind her back. I was telling her to her face, it wasn't okay. And when she got upset with me for not meeting her in her dissociation, I said, I would never enable her. And so that was that. I felt like a cruel person for being so firm and direct with her. I'm sure I would not like that AT ALL if someone did that with me. So that's where I still felt responsible, like that wasn't the most relationship-friendly thing to do - send this firm/stern email. But at the end of the day, I guess the fact remains that she is in an unhealthy place, and it's not what I need right now - it's that she was meeting some need for me - and I'm without that now, and hurting. And that is along the lines of what happened to LTR - I couldn't tolerate his codependence and neediness and lack of capacity for certain things and I was really firm with him, and then he was gone and I felt immense loss.
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Post by seeking on Mar 19, 2022 0:16:34 GMT
. One of the ways to handle this is to shut down and project and blame you instead, so that they can run away from those bad feelings (as a defense mechanism, you become the source of negative feelings in their heads instead of them). That's why their only enduring friendships are the enabling kind. The key here to see is, it's not actually about you as a person. Because people who are extremely FA on the scale and are also either unaware or just refusing to work on it put up their defense mechanisms and distill their experience to how do they react and feel in reaction to other people, so it's all about them really due to their own dysfunction in their emotional health, instead of being able to clearly see you and who you are first. Like, it's not about, I like seeking because she has these qualities and values and characteristics and is a cool overall person who I care about... it's, I like seeking because she listens when I unload on her and helps me emotionally regulate myself when I have drama, and sometimes we have fun together too! It's not my best explanation ever lol, but does it make sense so far? Yes, this makes so much sense. So is that an FA thing? Or an everyone thing? -- the part about seeing clearly who you are first? Liking someone because of their qualities? I think ex-friend and I definitely had a relationship in a good way but the bad way outweighed it - her dependency need for comfort during a really trying time was too much for me. And I have done that with other people - when I was in the midst of my most hellish times, I would either isolate or reach out in a panic and need comfort and being talked down out of the panic. So I guess I didn't hold that against her.
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Post by seeking on Mar 19, 2022 0:19:15 GMT
I think a part of me felt some reassurance or certainty in knowing I'd "never be abandoned by them" and then shocked by their walled-offedness. Does that make sense? This makes sense. And on your end, it requires another shift in your own perspective. Neediness can't be used as a way to measure risk of abandonment. The growth on your end here is to get to a point where if someone "abandons" you, you know you will still be okay so there's nothing to actually fear. There may be some pain and disappointment, but you will process it and survive and be fine. I'm not fine, though. In the really long response I just wrote above, I guess it's not even about abandonment - relationally - it's that I'm not fine. That's what my "lightbulb" moment was. I keep calling this abandonment, and yes, maybe it is triggering my abandonment - because I have that too but this is something else - being alone in my life these days is just feeling too painful. And LTR and ex-friend eased that a lot for me.
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 19, 2022 0:46:22 GMT
This makes sense. And on your end, it requires another shift in your own perspective. Neediness can't be used as a way to measure risk of abandonment. The growth on your end here is to get to a point where if someone "abandons" you, you know you will still be okay so there's nothing to actually fear. There may be some pain and disappointment, but you will process it and survive and be fine. I'm not fine, though. In the really long response I just wrote above, I guess it's not even about abandonment - relationally - it's that I'm not fine. That's what my "lightbulb" moment was. I keep calling this abandonment, and yes, maybe it is triggering my abandonment - because I have that too but this is something else - being alone in my life these days is just feeling too painful. And LTR and ex-friend eased that a lot for me. Honestly it sounds like you are still in need of your “tribe”….people who get you and you get them because you share in experiences. I have 1 amazing friend who gets me and I get her and if I lost that, I am sure I would feel like you do. She and I talk about our struggles, our therapy, we hold each other accountable and give each other space to just “be”. She gets my FA, I get her’s. That sounds like what you are mourning….your tribe.
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 19, 2022 0:51:42 GMT
. One of the ways to handle this is to shut down and project and blame you instead, so that they can run away from those bad feelings (as a defense mechanism, you become the source of negative feelings in their heads instead of them). That's why their only enduring friendships are the enabling kind. The key here to see is, it's not actually about you as a person. Because people who are extremely FA on the scale and are also either unaware or just refusing to work on it put up their defense mechanisms and distill their experience to how do they react and feel in reaction to other people, so it's all about them really due to their own dysfunction in their emotional health, instead of being able to clearly see you and who you are first. Like, it's not about, I like seeking because she has these qualities and values and characteristics and is a cool overall person who I care about... it's, I like seeking because she listens when I unload on her and helps me emotionally regulate myself when I have drama, and sometimes we have fun together too! It's not my best explanation ever lol, but does it make sense so far? Yes, this makes so much sense. So is that an FA thing? Or an everyone thing? -- the part about seeing clearly who you are first? Liking someone because of their qualities? I think ex-friend and I definitely had a relationship in a good way but the bad way outweighed it - her dependency need for comfort during a really trying time was too much for me. And I have done that with other people - when I was in the midst of my most hellish times, I would either isolate or reach out in a panic and need comfort and being talked down out of the panic. So I guess I didn't hold that against her. I don’t think it is only an FA thing…..I think it is an insecurely attached individual thing. I have friends who do that…..call me only when life is throwing them a curve and they need to vent….get regulated. And the expectation is for me to nod in agreement so that they feel better…never mind if I become de regulated in the process. I think there is an element of selfishness…but I think the bigger piece is having never learned how to self sooth…always needing someone else to do it. That is usually more an AP or FA in an AP state behavior.
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Post by seeking on Mar 20, 2022 0:09:17 GMT
Honestly it sounds like you are still in need of your “tribe”….people who get you and you get them because you share in experiences. I have 1 amazing friend who gets me and I get her and if I lost that, I am sure I would feel like you do. She and I talk about our struggles, our therapy, we hold each other accountable and give each other space to just “be”. She gets my FA, I get her’s. That sounds like what you are mourning….your tribe. I feel like I do have a tribe. I feel like there's something more going on here. I'm pondering it more and it feels like a big "void" in my life that certain people (and situations) have filled and I'm without those now. I guess they were coping mechanisms. I'm aware that the "void" is a wound. And I'm trying to figure out where it comes from. Any insights welcome. For some reason LTR and ex-friend seemed to hit it. I'm sure it has something to do with addictive/codependent relationships. But I don't know. Still reflecting.
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 20, 2022 1:00:07 GMT
Honestly it sounds like you are still in need of your “tribe”….people who get you and you get them because you share in experiences. I have 1 amazing friend who gets me and I get her and if I lost that, I am sure I would feel like you do. She and I talk about our struggles, our therapy, we hold each other accountable and give each other space to just “be”. She gets my FA, I get her’s. That sounds like what you are mourning….your tribe. I feel like I do have a tribe. I feel like there's something more going on here. I'm pondering it more and it feels like a big "void" in my life that certain people (and situations) have filled and I'm without those now. I guess they were coping mechanisms. I'm aware that the "void" is a wound. And I'm trying to figure out where it comes from. Any insights welcome. For some reason LTR and ex-friend seemed to hit it. I'm sure it has something to do with addictive/codependent relationships. But I don't know. Still reflecting. Voids can also point us to legitimate needs that are not being fulfilled currently. I don’t feel there has been enough information for me to guess…but perhaps posing that question back to your part might reveal more details.
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Post by seeking on Mar 20, 2022 1:11:52 GMT
Voids can also point us to legitimate needs that are not being fulfilled currently. I don’t feel there has been enough information for me to guess…but perhaps posing that question back to your part might reveal more details. Yes, I will. That's good. I am trying to make a list today. Sort of where my soul wants to go. I am going to seriously look at how to address my daughter's severe separation anxiety so I can get some time alone. And I also tried to plan a trip or two this year - summer and fall. And looked at a property today. And got a babysitter for a week and a half - and reached out to a woman I met a couple weeks ago who just invited me over. And emailed back the guy I'm talking to. And just spent some time with myself today - bought sunflower seeds to plant. And ate well. But I'm still with this longing. It can get so bad, I could easily reach out to LTR. I won't. That would be ludicrous. But it's like it's just there with me. I appreciate you saying the void can be legit. I'm pathologizing it.
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Post by alexandra on Mar 20, 2022 1:12:15 GMT
seeking, I know I've said this before, but I'm going to keep bringing it up and reinforcing it. This is all related to your family dynamics. Something with your ex and your friend reminds you of something about the relationships with your parents and your sister, and you're still trying to fix it and figure out how to get your needs met on some level. It's not always intuitive that this stuff is all connected, but it is. Figuring out where those connections are and using it to work on your narrative of understanding your past will help give you more to build on to move forward.
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Post by alexandra on Mar 20, 2022 1:12:38 GMT
The void is definitely legitimate!
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