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Post by seeking on Mar 21, 2022 20:47:29 GMT
That's why when Username made the comment they did, I was hoping for an example of when I've intentionally slammed down my boundaries.
I think if anything, I've been very triggered and shut down -- even when I responded to my friend and her accusing me of "being intense" that day. I was triggered through the whole thing. I didn't have a boundary with her that day. She didn't have a boundary with me, except for one "That's enough for today. I'm going to bed." And then I gave her space. Those were the two most skillfull words and actions in that whole event. Everything else was us triggering each other and her shutting down and me escalating. No one was having "boundaries"
Then when she said I was intense, and failed to take any responsibility around what happened, I got triggered into saying a lot back but probably the only real boundary was "Anytime you are in danger, I may get intense." and "I don't want to talk about your ex-drama anymore." Everything else was kind of of the gestalt of combined trauma/survival responses on both our parts.
At least that is my estimation.
So I'm not seeing were people are helping me and I'm putting up walls - but that's where I asked for clarification.
I have a lot of "overcoupling" with people helping me and then expecting access to me (my father) in very toxic and unsafe ways. And me owing them things. I'm working on that, but it's a work in progress. I don't have a lot of people offering to help right now. My ex-friend used to but then help also involved being exposed to her crazy (a dirty house full of animals - a dog who bit her - 3 boys under the age of 12) - i.e., "Have your daughter come here so you can get such and such done." That wasn't really an option.
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 21, 2022 21:00:14 GMT
I am curious how you define someone’s unavailability as separate from their boundaries. I actually see them as being tied together. I think having walls prevents being available….which again I think comes back to trust of self and/or trust of others. I used to think my mom was unavailable…but now I just think she has poor self regulation and poor application of boundaries. But I am fine with us having different takes on this. Maybe it's just a matter of semantics. When I talk about boundaries, I'm talking about being skillful not what we "default" to given the state of our nervous system. For example, I just had an ex-friend (not THE ex-friend) text me to ask me for book recommendations. She knows what I do for a living and I'm sensing she's indirectly asking for help. I am not willing to help her. She is toxic for me, and overwhelms me (and most people around her). Our daughters are friends. They reconnected last summer, and I was very leery to get back involved, but I set a clear intention that there would be limited contact with her. And we've been able to maintain that. When I dropped her daughter off a few weeks ago, I could feel her trying to lure me back in to her sagas and drama. I want nothing to do with it. So my texts back to her today were very simple answers. I did not engage her further. That takes some skill (for me) - I would either have fewer boundaries, and have more sympathy, engage her more, or be sort of apologetic. Or I might avoid her completely and fear texting her and getting sucked back in (*** I'll come back to this) But instead, I was very aware of what I was doing - it was a "grayrock" response. *** but if I'm someone who is very unhealthy and dysregulated, and I don't even know what a boundary is, my nervous system would dictate that for me - i.e., shut down - not respond, get irritated (etc) - like the example we're using with our parents. That's not skillful. That's just "default" and something there's not a lot of consciousness or skill around. In a similar vein, it may be a relational style - avoidant. I sense a demand, I shut down. With my friend, I'm not operating from that place. I used to operate from that place. 2 years ago, I would have felt overwhelmed by her text and shut down and then ruminated about how to respond or not respond or feared her wrath or engulfment (this comes from relating to my dad). That's not a boundary - me not responding to her in that case is something I can't even control. But being aware of the dynamic, knowing what I want and don't want and saying "The line is here" is, to me, what a boundary is. In our parents case - I'll speak with regard to my dad. "I hear you're upset. I know you need something more than I can give right now. I'm sorry I can't give that to you." That's a skillful response to a situation - a boundary. Just hanging up because the person is triggered into fear or overwhelm is not something I would call a boundary - it's a shut down. It's like a reflexive response, not a conscious intentional one. Hmmmm..interesting. I guess I don’t see boundaries from that perspective due to all the somatic experiencing work I have done…but I will discuss this with my SE therapist and see what she thinks. |
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Post by usernametaken on Mar 21, 2022 21:09:46 GMT
I think what I am thinking is along the lines of, when we don't set any boundaries we get pushed out of our window of tolerance and get triggered, which can then cause us to go boom and throw up all the walls to protect ourselves. I see those as linked together, when you set boundaries earlier you are less likely to get to the point of triggered. When someone doesn't show up the way we want and it hurts, then you have the chance to communicate how you want them to show up, they either show up, or then you set a boundary with that new piece of information. I'm still working on this last bit, it is hard!
So maybe I didn't use the best wording. But again from what you've said of your past it makes sense why you get triggered and react the way you do. Once we come down from a trigger I think we can choose to try to communicate what happened and why we got so upset, which I think you did try to do with the one friend but unfortunately she didn't seem to want to meet you half way.
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Post by alexandra on Mar 21, 2022 22:04:51 GMT
In regards to boundaries, my thoughts are that (general) you can't have them if you're disconnected to yourself. Because a boundary is really the line which, once crossed, you feel threatened or unsafe and whatever it is that crossed it becomes unacceptable. If you have no boundaries, you accept anything, even if it's hurting you. Which in a way means you can't trust yourself. If you have boundaries that are too strong, it's very likely because you don't know what you need and are trying to block everything out preemptively because you don't trust yourself to handle things as they come up. When others violate either these really strong boundaries, or violate you because you have no boundaries, then you will naturally respond to that as you can't trust others. So now you're sitting in a position where you're trying to feel safe and correct, but since you don't know where that is within yourself, (again, general you, not you specifically), you end up flailing around trying this and that without finding the healthy spot. And I think this has to do with seeing boundaries as something that relies on other people and gets defined by them (are they in your space) instead of being defined by yourself (you can defend yourself and feel okay no matter what others do because of a strong sense of self and ability to depersonalize in bad situations). So I don't agree boundaries always come from a place of at least slight aggression. Not when they're connected to having a strong enough sense of self and identity, at least. But I can absolutely see it feeling like there's aggression involved to someone insecure who is struggling with all these concepts, who hasn't finished processing layers of intermittent anger and sadness that are just present when you have an insecure attachment style even if they're not consciously accessible. We have lots of posts about struggling with feeling anger for the first time from several APs and occasionally other styles as well.
If (general) you lack a sense of self or identity, lack connection to self, have difficulty being authentic and vulnerable, are distrustful of self and others, it's going to make it impossible to intuitively know how to have a healthy boundary. And so sometimes that's going to manifest in putting up giant walls to shut people out -- which can be good when they're toxic but is not good if someone can't measure that and are shying away from healthy connections as well as unhealthy ones.
I think that's still within the scope of the conversation here? I'm getting a little confused because there's a lot of discussion flying around but attempting to stay what I think is on point?
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Post by seeking on Mar 21, 2022 22:33:02 GMT
I think what I am thinking is along the lines of, when we don't set any boundaries we get pushed out of our window of tolerance and get triggered, which can then cause us to go boom and throw up all the walls to protect ourselves. I see those as linked together, when you set boundaries earlier you are less likely to get to the point of triggered. When someone doesn't show up the way we want and it hurts, then you have the chance to communicate how you want them to show up, they either show up, or then you set a boundary with that new piece of information. I'm still working on this last bit, it is hard! So maybe I didn't use the best wording. But again from what you've said of your past it makes sense why you get triggered and react the way you do. Once we come down from a trigger I think we can choose to try to communicate what happened and why we got so upset, which I think you did try to do with the one friend but unfortunately she didn't seem to want to meet you half way. I think I'm getting way better at conscious boundaries - even so much as very recently since the break-up with my friend. I was in a more reflexive state - yes, out of the window of tolerance and just kind of bumper-cars style Through this post, I think I can see my triggers with my friend and where they kind of lie in my early history - esp with my mother. And I know I contributed some of my own history into the mix. And I think that's what she was picking up on. "You were intense." And even though a big part of me wants her back in my life, I'm really looking at why. And what that impulse is. And if it's a healthy choice. I think the healthier parts of me felt like she acted as a kind of co-parent. I could talk to her about my daughter and she could ask questions or reflect things back in a way that reflected my values. I don't have that. I didn't always agree with her insights, but I appreciated them. I think it just comes back to having a "stand-in" for another adult to be "in" life with me. LTR was parenting tough kids as a single person. She was too. The other friend I have in my life is too but she's not super "deep" she's more like skittering along and something about that isn't the same. I have other homeschool friends but they are all married and different lives. Different frames of reference. Anyway, today I'm just kind of mopey and tired and wistful and wishing ex-friend and LTR were back in my life and that's all I got. |
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Post by seeking on Mar 21, 2022 23:55:46 GMT
Yes, alexandra I think what you wrote is within the scope .... As I read it I thought of ex-friend and LTR. I think that is very fitting of them.
I'm not a wall-offer. I have done it with my ex and very toxic/narc types. Or if someone is pursuing me and I don't like their energy/company. I'm more on the side of no boundaries, and learning really good ones. Way more agile with them now and building trust in myself as a result.
I could see both ex-friend and LTR in my life (maybe not romantically with LTR - but as a friend) if we all had better boundaries. I had decent ones with ex-friend and probably very poor ones with LTR since that was a while back.
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Post by seeking on Mar 21, 2022 23:57:48 GMT
However, I should add - I don't think either of them have very good boundaries - I'm guessing. Since it's such hard, dedicated intentional work and so much goes with it. I doubt LTR arrived at that. As far as I know he reflexively got back together with an ex wife (he had 2) (maybe 3, someone he was married to for less than year very young).
So while I actually trust myself more now with boundaries - I don't trust that they would have good ones. And I don't trust the *part* of me that is looking for them right now - I'm journaling about it, but it's a lot to process. I think I'm getting somewhere though.
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Post by usernametaken on Mar 22, 2022 0:33:39 GMT
It sounds like you have made so much progress already and are on the right path to continue to make it. It is so much, and sometimes we can't connect with certain concepts until we have done other work. Or we can partially connect but not fully implement it until other parts are in place. healthy relating has so many interdependencies. alexandra your comment reminded me of my ongoing struggles to connect with my anger. |
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Post by seeking on Mar 22, 2022 1:43:33 GMT
I just looked up healthy aggression and boundaries. I think the way we think of aggression is not what I'm talking about. Think of it more as an energy that comes from our life force - like our will. That is what I think of as creating boundaries - my language may not be the same.
"Healthy aggression involves embodying our boundaries such that we can respond to challenging situations with power and clarity, ideally while holding compassion for ourselves and the other people involved. To respond to our aggression wisely, it need not look aggressive."
Usernametaken - try looking at Karla McLaren's work - it is brilliant - especially when it comes to anger
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 22, 2022 2:46:40 GMT
I guess I approach boundaries differently….My healthy boundaries came through when I was able to feel myself as separate from others (as in, holding a unique space physically)…before that I was numb to myself which made the concept of holding a healthy boundary a perplexing mystery.🙂. But this comes through my SE therapy and i know there are many different types of therapies out there.
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Post by usernametaken on Mar 22, 2022 3:11:00 GMT
I guess I approach boundaries differently….My healthy boundaries came through when I was able to feel myself as separate from others (as in, holding a unique space physically)…before that I was numb to myself which made the concept of holding a healthy boundary a perplexing mystery.🙂. But this comes through my SE therapy and i know there are many different types of therapies out there. I will be doing SE therapy after I finish my trauma program. I'm struggling with the fact that all my feelings just pour out as pain. Anytime I try to do inner child or visualization work I end up sobbing. I get grieving our past but this feels like a block I can't get past. |
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Post by tnr9 on Mar 22, 2022 3:57:38 GMT
I guess I approach boundaries differently….My healthy boundaries came through when I was able to feel myself as separate from others (as in, holding a unique space physically)…before that I was numb to myself which made the concept of holding a healthy boundary a perplexing mystery.🙂. But this comes through my SE therapy and i know there are many different types of therapies out there. I will be doing SE therapy after I finish my trauma program. I'm struggling with the fact that all my feelings just pour out as pain. Anytime I try to do inner child or visualization work I end up sobbing. I get grieving our past but this feels like a block I can't get past. Honestly 1 year of SE has moved the needle so much for me. The body has so much to tell us about trauma and healing. 🙂 |
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Post by earnedsecure2022 on May 19, 2022 17:49:10 GMT
I am new here and truthfully new-ish to attachment theory generally, though it has transformed my life already - I will post a thread with my story soon. I was actually drawn to this thread because more of my AP/Avoidant drama has been with friends, rather than romantic partners.
My comment/observation is that we AP's tend to spend a LOT of time ruminating, trying to figure out what's going on in our relationships, how we've fucked up/done well, and what the other person is likely to do next. I guess I just wanted to point out that I notice this ruminative tendency throughout this thread and for me, a gentle, caring curiosity about that characteristic that we APs seem to acquire as part of our insecurity, has been very healing. For me, ultimately I realized two things: a) it was exhausting to ruminate that much and eventually I couldn't keep it up anymore and b) it was me playing God/thinking I was God and that either my behavior, or my ruminating itself, could control what the avoidant person in my life might choose to do. It makes sense because infants/young toddlers are very egocentric and believe themselves to be the center of the universe, so since this dysfunctional pattern began at around the age of 2 (give or take), it makes sense that some of my behavior would also be rooted in this immature stage of development. I didn't mean this reply to take so long, just wanted to commiserate and thank you for being here. Every thread I've visited has been very helpful and I am glad to be here. OP I wish you peace and growth and the love that you deserve.<script src="moz-extension://5101debf-3136-489a-bb5c-b12aa16158a7/js/app.js" type="text/javascript"></script> |
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Post by seeking on Jul 12, 2022 11:17:12 GMT
My comment/observation is that we AP's tend to spend a LOT of time ruminating, trying to figure out what's going on in our relationships, how we've fucked up/done well, and what the other person is likely to do next. I guess I just wanted to point out that I notice this ruminative tendency throughout this thread and for me, a gentle, caring curiosity about that characteristic that we APs seem to acquire as part of our insecurity, has been very healing. For me, ultimately I realized two things: a) it was exhausting to ruminate that much and eventually I couldn't keep it up anymore and b) it was me playing God/thinking I was God and that either my behavior, or my ruminating itself, could control what the avoidant person in my life might choose to do. It makes sense because infants/young toddlers are very egocentric and believe themselves to be the center of the universe, so since this dysfunctional pattern began at around the age of 2 (give or take), it makes sense that some of my behavior would also be rooted in this immature stage of development. I didn't mean this reply to take so long, just wanted to commiserate and thank you for being here. Every thread I've visited has been very helpful and I am glad to be here. OP I wish you peace and growth and the love that you deserve.<script src="moz-extension://5101debf-3136-489a-bb5c-b12aa16158a7/js/app.js" type="text/javascript"></script> Hi! I just wrote a new post about EXACTLY THIS. I don't even *want* to be ruminating. It's like I'm *being* ruminated. I wish it felt like a choice. I try to swat it away, but it "sticks." Because I guess there is pain there that wants to be felt? Grieving, maybe? But I like what you said about gentle, caring, curiousity. In IFS it would be called a trail head and that's how I'm trying to approach it to notice a part that might be there hurting. Wishing you peace as well! |
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