rykus9
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Post by rykus9 on Apr 15, 2022 22:07:35 GMT
Thanks again @introverttemporary your insights are very valuable to me and I appreciate the effort you and other members have shown me here.
Hmm this is the scary stuff I guess for me. My mom and her mom where both really cold, probably DA or dismissive FA. I had pretty steady girlfriends all through high-school but all where 1-4 month pretty shallow relationships. A few little 1 week on one night flings but mostly kinda stable, normal I thought.Was a bit shy about progressing stuff myself I guess but pretty normal stuff.
In grade 9 I had a steady GF of 3 months and went up to live with my friend in the Yukon (he got sent to live with his dad) and hooked up with a girl that was a bit more experienced and had an intimate relationship with her while I was there as my first intimate bonding.
I then had a few more girls I dated but not intimate. And had 2 in particular that I found I would idealize them and stayed really hung up on them for most of my grade 10-12.. I had another girl I dated off and on that was tons of fun but we would mostly hook up after we broke up ( I left her because the one girl I was hung up on decided to date my best friend to Sabatoge my relationship.. it worked) and a few others I was more in touch with but ended pretty quickly.
Basically I just thought about those 2 girls and why it didn't work for a bit. Wasn't a great time for me and I missed a lot of potential matches in my quest to be unhappy.
It was wierd about 19 20 I met my first long term GF but we didn't do more thst hook up of n on for a bit (she had a bf I was all over BC and moving) she was young but really awesome girl in a lot ways. I moved out into the middle of nowhere for a year by myself, was pretty good for me.
When I came back I instantly went and found her and we started a crazy 5 year relationship. My first real relationship I feel. Living together etc etc.
The funny part was at this time I realized I had barely even knew any of my high-school girlfriends. I didn't know how to talk to them at all, thinking back on it I literally knew almost nothing about them, it was crazy! Especially the two I spent years feeling so hurt by, it was all just an idea I had built up and the person themselves where not the same thing st all. In fact both where pretty abusive, mostly wanted my attention and social interactions but then would be with other guys etc but try to win me back if my interest shifted.
During this first turbulent LT we where close with another couple, living together and lots of drinking/ party times. Eventually during a time we where going through some explosive break up I ended up sleeping with my friends gf(he was there that time) and instantly me and her became trauma bonded sex and activity partners.
Both my GF and my friend her BF cheated a lot. I was good for a few years but after that first time we would hook up a lot. Go 4x4ing, hiking to the beach etc. Just lots of super light fun adventure with a ton of no pressure sex and intimacy without the other stuff. I see now how this fits the FA perfectly, I think all 4 of us where that probably. It was a mess. Lots of hurt. I bailed on her for my GF in a last attempt to make it work but it didn't and I lost both my female partners for a bit there. Lots of life stress here too I think I was 25 26.quit drugs and had bought that house lol
That's when I met my wife. Had a few(3) short relationships between the first LT and my wife but none lasted at all. I was a drunk mess with money and I just got a nice place on an island so I wasn't very stable. This is the first girl that she came on to me kindvof hard but she had a BF and I was super broken and angry that she would flirt with me and send mixed messages while she was living with her BF, basically told her I was a mess and no good and if she wanted anything for me she had to be clear and direct or I was having none of it.
She did as I asked and she moved in with me after a year or so, we where good for another year or more then I just felt more and more she wasn't faithful and I kinda caught her in a few moments that made me uncomfortable with being committed. Soo I slept with her best friend who then told me she was indeed cheating too. Continued on that toxic journey for another long time before moving back out to my island house.
I quit drinking then at about 35 36 tried to work it out with the wife but we where so far gone even with the space and clarity I couldn't go back. That house burned down with all my possessions while I was over on the island property and that kinda ended that. She kept drinking and I was almost a year sober (except weed) so I just cut ties altogether.
At this point the dynamic with the FA best friend I had been sleeping with shifted. I became available. She panicked we fought hard and the intimacy vanished from over the top to non existent. We almost had a child and then she miscarried and it really messed us both up. I had really wanted kids with my wife but she was pursuing a crazy career and I was crazy and busy too so we just didn't. The new GF though she could never have children from sexual abuse as a child. At 12 the said she was sterile so our pregnancy at 38 threw her over the edge. I tried to be there for her but she was super explosive and kept attacking my feelings so I left to another town on work for a year. I stayed as emotional support till she phoned me drunk at midnight from another man's place then it was too much. I was still paying all the bills there but I ghosted to preserve any sanity I had left
Had a couple hook up in the different town. Then I moved back and moved in with a single mom that had chased me for a long time. I needed the support and kindness. I was at a low and she took me in and helped me a lot. Unfortunately her son was coming of age and wasn't as stoked I was there and her daughter was also coming of age but younger and had some daddy attachment issues that made me uncomfortable (even more so when my partner noticed and brought it up in a wierd way)
We had unprotected sex because she was safe and I'm dumb and yeah pregnant. We decided to not keep it and this brought up the previous loss for me. I withdrew and I already wouldn't stay there if she wasn't home. Her daughter list her virginity in our absence and between the two events I just left. I honestly feel bad about it but I wasn't in a good spot and I knew nothing good would come from me being there other than I would feed here needs as a probable AP.
I left that and reconnected with the previous GF with whom I'd lost that child. She put on a good face and we hooked up a but before falling right back into a toxic mess. This has been my battle since.
We are really great friends this FA and I I do care a ton about her and loosing the baby then my ex wife taking my house we where living in, topped off with covid and a sudden change in both our work industry has left us pushed together and dependant on each other but both wanting and needing freedom and space.
I just can't do it anymore though, I've been so strong through so much but it's finally hit that point where I can't ignore the damage we do to each other, and how I can't for myself keep being in this freeze state. It's ruining the person I can be. I just can't get back healthy enough to function at the levels I need to and I resent that. I know she resents her dependence on me too.
Not sure the point I had if there was one but I can just see all this unhealthy stuff piling up and pushing me farther off who I believe I am. I am a reasonably good person in a lot of ways, I have achieved great things and am intelligent and capable. I'm not sure why I am so drawn into patterns of self destruction and people that are so raw and volatile.
Thank you all again for enduring my ramblings here. I realize I was over posting in other people's threads so I will try to contain myself to this thread a bit more. It is just really good feeling to be here and having insights and binding with members who have had similar experiences and thoughts.
Appreciate you all and I hope you are all having a wonderful day!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2022 13:35:12 GMT
I just noticed your post here and I'd like to rad and respond thoughtfully. I'll be back!  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2022 14:31:12 GMT
Hi rykus9, most of us have a relationship history we find baffling and painful. I'm sorry you find yourself in one that feels like unbearably more of the same and it sounds like you feel stuck. That's a tough place to be in for sure. I was situationally stuck and dependent in a relationship that was painful and destructive before, but that's actually where I experienced s lot of growth and awareness too. Eventually I was able to be free of it and had a period of being single and doing more work, another relationship that brought up a lot of patterns for me to address in a new way, but which was ultimately toxic... then left that to find the one I'm in now which I've shared a bit about. Just to encourage you that once you begin to get some awareness of and question your own patterns and pitfalls, nothing is wasted suffering really. It all just takes time to sort out. We can't do anything about the pat obviously, but it's necessary to grieve or work through feelings about it. Finding camaraderie here can be great for that, just realizing that there are other people who can relate and who are finding their way in spite of it all. Do you have another therapy appt set up? I'd encourage you to try to stick with it, which can be really tough. Maybe commit to a certain number of sessions inside yourself, and be accountable to someone for that? It's easy to make reasons not to go. I have mixed feelings about therapy even though it helped me a lot- I also did a lot of self work independently with the info available on the web. |
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Post by anne12 on Apr 18, 2022 8:31:18 GMT
rykus9 You might find this interesting…. jebkinnisonforum.com/post/43103/Layers of Boundaries: Skin/Physical Boundary Personal Space/Energetic Boundary Territorial Boundary Social Space Boundary When do we develop boundaries: Physical boundaries (2nd trimester to 2 1/2 years) Personal/energetic boundaries (0 to 3 years) Territorial boundaries (3 to 12 years) Social or role boundaries (4 to ? years) Physical boundaries Physical boundary formation is intimately connected with perception of the skin. This perception is developed through the latter part of pregnancy and through the first year and- a-half, where the tactile sense of the child develop most rapidly. The child's capacity to sense the skin as the body boundary (and container) is influenced by general stimulation and the contactfulness of touch, as well as by eventual trauma. Personal/energetic boundaries Personal/energetic boundary formation develops through the child's separation from the attention and energy field of the parents (in our cultures, especially the mother). Healthy boundary development requires that the parents let go of their attentiveness and energetic 'sense' of the child and its activities as it becomes more capable and responsible in its activities. Territorial boundaries Territorial boundary formation begins around three years of age, when the child begins to be feel ownership of things: "MINE!". In a healthy development the child can later on allow others the use of its things. To claim its territory, the three-year-old may make 'houses' where no one else may come in. Later, a specially chosen few can be invited into the house. Social or role boundaries Social boundaries have at least two aspects. One is the role that the individual identifies with, that defines specific behavior patterns and a particular 'turf': e.g., good at sports, bad at math, mediator in the peer group, etc. The other aspect concerns the formation of groups, and group boundary formation. Here, social boundaries imply that some people are drawn into a field of bonding, while others are kept out. To understand the mechanism behind developing resourceful boundaries, it is important to know a little bit about how our muscles are developed from birth and forth, as our need for them grows. You have muscles that have helped you as a baby to show your caregivers that you were hungry, tired or in need of comfort. You also have muscles that have helped you manifest your will, also before you developed the ability to speak fluently. So, if you look at the human being from birth, a lot of development and communication takes place long before the baby learns how to use the tongue muscle and speak. Your boundaries are already being imprintet in your muscles from when you were a baby. If your imprints from when you discovered that there’s a “you” and a “me” have been positive, you´re likely to have healthy and resourceful boundaries around your energetic space. If the imprint has been less positive; you’re likely to have difficulties as an adult to feel your own energetic space and to hold it. You can work to decode the imprints in for example the boundary muscles by using the muscles in various exercises. The muscles can rewrite a negative imprint or resources from other more balanced muscles can be activated. Your benefit; becoming able to feel, hold and maintain your boundaries while interacting in a worthy, joyful and respectful way in relations to numerous different types of persons. Thus, being able to see the beauty in differences when you are able to stand in your own shoes -maintaining your space instead of feeling run over or threatened by different types of people. Use your body – that´s why you got it.
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rykus9
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Post by rykus9 on Apr 18, 2022 18:35:31 GMT
Thank you anne12 that is very helpful! I have read through the anger thread in your link before because I find I have an issue with putting to much out with out clear boundaries and get upset or withdraw and become spiteful if I feel the other person it's contributing what was agreed or is taking more than agreed in my mind. I have been self employed and done business with different friends and acquaintance since I was a teen and left home so I do have a lot of experience and some tools but I think there is a type of person that can use my good intentions and ability to create a lot and work hard, then dissolve the relationship once they put in less and take more or are unwilling to be reasonable and I move on rather than dedicate any more of my resources to a project I won't be rewarded from or is draining me in someway I am not able to sustain healthily. I will read through your post a few times as well it does seem helpful and I appreciate the tools! Hit another wall with my FA, she is so caught up in the anxious side of the trap, that even though I can see my side when I try to own my part it is fueling her narrative and she is unable to see both sides. I am trying super hard to not trigger and be supportive but I do find it really super draining. I'm processing so much at once that no one but me can really change my internal response and I try to express that but it is taken as a dismissive of my acceptance of her help. There's just no easy fix for some things, they are hard already for me and being beat down by the feeling of being attacked about my processing is super difficult some days. Really appreciate the support here. I am realizing I go through phases of using it as an emotional crutch and come here just to interact when I'm spinning in my head. But it has been super helpful and is a really nice break from feeling hurt and really alone in myself. Hope everyone had a great weekend! I'll keep on posting my journey. I have t confirmed my second therapy session but I think I will for the beginning of May |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2022 19:22:51 GMT
Thank you anne12 that is very helpful! I have read through the anger thread in your link before because I find I have an issue with putting to much out with out clear boundaries and get upset or withdraw and become spiteful if I feel the other person it's contributing what was agreed or is taking more than agreed in my mind. I have been self employed and done business with different friends and acquaintance since I was a teen and left home so I do have a lot of experience and some tools but I think there is a type of person that can use my good intentions and ability to create a lot and work hard, then dissolve the relationship once they put in less and take more or are unwilling to be reasonable and I move on rather than dedicate any more of my resources to a project I won't be rewarded from or is draining me in someway I am not able to sustain healthily. I will read through your post a few times as well it does seem helpful and I appreciate the tools! Hit another wall with my FA, she is so caught up in the anxious side of the trap, that even though I can see my side when I try to own my part it is fueling her narrative and she is unable to see both sides. I am trying super hard to not trigger and be supportive but I do find it really super draining. I'm processing so much at once that no one but me can really change my internal response and I try to express that but it is taken as a dismissive of my acceptance of her help. There's just no easy fix for some things, they are hard already for me and being beat down by the feeling of being attacked about my processing is super difficult some days. Really appreciate the support here. I am realizing I go through phases of using it as an emotional crutch and come here just to interact when I'm spinning in my head. But it has been super helpful and is a really nice break from feeling hurt and really alone in myself. Hope everyone had a great weekend! I'll keep on posting my journey. I have t confirmed my second therapy session but I think I will for the beginning of May Often, when one person in a toxic dynamic begins to change that is exactly what happens... taking responsibility becomes an "I told you so! I'm right and you're wrong!" moment for the partner who is remaining in their trance, and it just gets more toxic because of the pain and emotional manipulation inflicted on the partner who is trying to process and work through their own issues. An unhealthy anxious person may THINK that they support growth, but it means them having to wake up to their side of the dynamic too, and they just can't do that until they hit bottom within themselves. You're still there to blame, so unless and until she gets a wake up call about her own toxicity, you will be blamed. Plus, it takes time to work through this stuff and there is no way to outpace the inevitable escalation that will likely happen as you develop healthy boundaries around your partners behaviors. Be prepared for that. That's my take, and my advice anyway. I don't know her but you probably have a sense of it already, sounds like you do... The boundary information and all the other information anne12 supplies us with can be so helpful!!! And I think it's great you come here to read, learn, find empathy and support, and cope. Keep it up! And good on you for continuing therapy. That will be very good for you as well. It sounds like SE therapy is really a powerful approach and I've read good things about it! Glad you're here too- it helps me a lot to have a DA leaning buddy too. I have tended to feel really like an alien sometimes and it helps me to read your perspective as well, because of the ways in which we can relate. It's just different, being on the other side. Not better or worse, just different. |
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rykus9
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Post by rykus9 on Apr 20, 2022 2:38:44 GMT
Well I actually kind of slept last night and it helped a bit.
Been having continued negative interactions with my anxious leaning whatever we are at this point.
Our friend came down with her newborn and it brought up issues that are still unresolved. I have been trying to use the tools I learned so far to not be triggered and escalate the cycle. I have been trying to acknowledge my part and feel more compassionate towards her concerns while having some boundaries about the blame.
I am stuck on the fact that she tends to go worst case about the future or interpret my feelings in a negative light and then say her interpretation of the narrative she believes in a very negative way that comes across as very belittling and passive aggressive too me. I have a really hard time responding to that and not feeling hurt and wanting to withdraw.
I know I am sensitive and this are really deep core aspects of myself so although I try to be as supportive as I can I also cannot accept these skewed versions of the truth. It is already hard for me to express myself and I usually would rather leave than do so. It makes it extra hard to continually put my feelings out there only to have them invalidated or cut short and used as a trigger for her to attack me.
She did acknowledge the work I have done so far, although that was a mixed bag of compliment and pain because she also included how I've never really tried to be with her and that I am only learning now i want to leave and will benefit the next women not her. apparently it is helping though. I feel more beat down than usual which is wierd. I think its just been so long and with the other things going on in my life I can endure a bit of this but it is hard to accept so much blame and negativity without wanting to escape.
I have a 2 hr wait for a ferry thsts late then 2 40min ferry rides tonight so I'm going to have lots of time to overthink it all. Hope you all are feeling good. Thank you for the support as always and I may be back to vent further.
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Post by tnr9 on Apr 20, 2022 2:54:36 GMT
Well I actually kind of slept last night and it helped a bit. Been having continued negative interactions with my anxious leaning whatever we are at this point. Our friend came down with her newborn and it brought up issues that are still unresolved. I have been trying to use the tools I learned so far to not be triggered and escalate the cycle. I have been trying to acknowledge my part and feel more compassionate towards her concerns while having some boundaries about the blame. I am stuck on the fact that she tends to go worst case about the future or interpret my feelings in a negative light and then say her interpretation of the narrative she believes in a very negative way that comes across as very belittling and passive aggressive too me. I have a really hard time responding to that and not feeling hurt and wanting to withdraw. I know I am sensitive and this are really deep core aspects of myself so although I try to be as supportive as I can I also cannot accept these skewed versions of the truth. It is already hard for me to express myself and I usually would rather leave than do so. It makes it extra hard to continually put my feelings out there only to have them invalidated or cut short and used as a trigger for her to attack me. She did acknowledge the work I have done so far, although that was a mixed bag of compliment and pain because she also included how I've never really tried to be with her and that I am only learning now i want to leave and will benefit the next women not her. apparently it is helping though. I feel more beat down than usual which is wierd. I think its just been so long and with the other things going on in my life I can endure a bit of this but it is hard to accept so much blame and negativity without wanting to escape. I have a 2 hr wait for a ferry thsts late then 2 40min ferry rides tonight so I'm going to have lots of time to overthink it all. Hope you all are feeling good. Thank you for the support as always and I may be back to vent further. Yeh,…..it is the sucky thing about AP…..always waiting for the shoe to drop, always fearing that someone will leave so trying to predict and get ahead of it. Outsourcing the regulation of the haywire nervous system. I used to say that if only I could have a manual on B…then I could stop interpreting things out of fear. But what I really needed was to stop expecting him to regulate me and take that back upon myself. It is not easy. |
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rykus9
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Post by rykus9 on Apr 20, 2022 3:05:59 GMT
Thanks tnr9 reading you posts has been helpful and I appreciate your support. I know I am no cakewalk either and I can't expect all the hurt I have to magically dissipate now that I've learned a few tools and insights, or that I can make everything better ever let alone right away. It is hard for me to read the threads from the other side and I empathize with your journey. I can just start to see how i have been in many of the things we have gone through.hopefully your B becomes aware one day aswell, and at least you can be thankful you are on the path to understanding yourself a bit more for future attachments! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2022 3:31:33 GMT
Well I actually kind of slept last night and it helped a bit. Been having continued negative interactions with my anxious leaning whatever we are at this point. Our friend came down with her newborn and it brought up issues that are still unresolved. I have been trying to use the tools I learned so far to not be triggered and escalate the cycle. I have been trying to acknowledge my part and feel more compassionate towards her concerns while having some boundaries about the blame. I am stuck on the fact that she tends to go worst case about the future or interpret my feelings in a negative light and then say her interpretation of the narrative she believes in a very negative way that comes across as very belittling and passive aggressive too me. I have a really hard time responding to that and not feeling hurt and wanting to withdraw. I know I am sensitive and this are really deep core aspects of myself so although I try to be as supportive as I can I also cannot accept these skewed versions of the truth. It is already hard for me to express myself and I usually would rather leave than do so. It makes it extra hard to continually put my feelings out there only to have them invalidated or cut short and used as a trigger for her to attack me. She did acknowledge the work I have done so far, although that was a mixed bag of compliment and pain because she also included how I've never really tried to be with her and that I am only learning now i want to leave and will benefit the next women not her. apparently it is helping though. I feel more beat down than usual which is wierd. I think its just been so long and with the other things going on in my life I can endure a bit of this but it is hard to accept so much blame and negativity without wanting to escape. I have a 2 hr wait for a ferry thsts late then 2 40min ferry rides tonight so I'm going to have lots of time to overthink it all. Hope you all are feeling good. Thank you for the support as always and I may be back to vent further. Oh, I am so sorry you are enduring this. Have you considered that what she is doing may actually be emotional abuse? If you feel continually drained by these interactions, and she is continually invalidating you by inflicting her negative narratives which cast you and your feelings and thoughts in a negative light, you might want to explore this with your therapist so you can learn how to protect yourself, like, NOW. Not that she is intending to abuse, but it sounds like her boundaries are non existent, and she's self absorbed enough to have what sounds like zero empathy for you, it's all about her. Wanting to escape this badgering is normal! I don't think it's anything to feel bad about, in case you are. You don't have to be hostage to it, although you probably have to be strategic in what you do in order to avoid her escalation. I understand you are in a very difficult position with your circumstances, and leaving may not be an option. But maybe you can develop some kind of plan with your therapist for protecting yourself emotionally. It sounds extremely toxic. I've been there before and it was so overwhelming. I got depressed, it impacted every aspect of my life. I hate to see you going through it. Come vent any time. If there's any way to support you here let us know. And hopefully your therapist can provide some good tools and insights for you. |
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rykus9
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Post by rykus9 on Apr 20, 2022 4:11:26 GMT
Thank you @introverttemporary I do feel thst although I have definitely played a huge part in where we are at I also feel like for over a year I have been very consistent about addressing that I am unhappy, my needs are not being met and I think if we want yo remain friends I am going to need my own space and to be treated decently as I had been shutting down more and more from the frustration and yelling.
She got her own space when my ex wife forced us to vacate the house we where in. But an issue with the owner made her feel unsafe and since it was pandemic and with work etc I said she could move into my space again. She already resented me having got my own place and that I didn't want to I've together so it's just been a battle ever since. I have been sleeping in my clothes on the couch, with this recent melt down now she feels she is putting me out so is making herself uncomfortable and verbally blaming me. I don't mind she's there I just can't accept bring in a relationship the way it was and I don't like just living with her and dealing with jealousy and anger when I haven't been sleeping with other people and have been trying extra hard ti be supportive while I establish some boundaries and figure myself out.
I have told her a few times that I felt that she was being abusive. I know she is sensitive to the word abuse but I'm not sure if she can see that it is emotional abuse. I hate to even say thst but yes that is the only feeling I can use to describe the helpless no win predicament I feel in when I cant even have a feeling thst is valid and am feeling attacked.it is really frustrating to the point I think its actually damaging. Hence the abuse I guess.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2022 4:18:55 GMT
She doesn't have to believe she's abusive, she doesn't have to agree... in fact abusers justify themselves and see themselves as the victim and will do anything to try to get you to see yourself in the perp role. You are not to blame for her abuse. There's been a study done about anxious attachment, jealousy and IPV. The connection is real. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33103589/Please do talk to your therapist; sooner rather than later. The psychological impacts are very damaging, don't believe that because she isn't physically attacking you (at least not that you've mentioned unless I missed it?) that you're safe. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2022 4:42:21 GMT
Do you have domestic violence resources available to you where you live? There is a stigma about being a male victim of abuse and I am sorry that exists... but DV centers are fighting that stigma and would be happy to assist you in determining if you are being abused, and what you can do. Im sure you're therapist can of course but I don't know how soon you can get in to see her. I'm not pushing you to do something you don't want to do, I'm just trying to encourage you that you deserve support and to be taken seriously. I don't know the extent of everything going on with her behavior but you've shared that you are in a lot of pain and distress. It is possible to become so defeated that you delay seeking help, feeling despair or as though you have a responsibility to fix the abuse. So, it can seem futile and you can go into freeze.
I'm glad you're sharing, this is something you don't and shouldn't handle without a lot of empathy and support.
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Post by anne12 on Apr 20, 2022 6:07:47 GMT
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rykus9
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Post by rykus9 on Apr 20, 2022 6:26:18 GMT
Thank you again @introverttemporary you support is most appreciated.
I do still believe that I played a part,and because this is just my side it may be bias a bit to be fair as it was brought up with me too.
I feel strong enough that I just want to end things and get out while I still am. I have gone through a lot and this is just another hurdle I need to get behind me as I grow. I do think she will be happier too in the end even though right now she is really bitter about the time she spent trying to be with me.
Hopefully she can learn more and grow too. I know she has in the past and her life was not easy at many points. That isn't my fault though and for both of us if we can't move past the hurt from before we are just continuing the pain by not separating ourselves and living in the resentment.
I'm glad to know I have you on my side it feels good. I will say though all my partners have been strong and amazing people.(they had to be to be with me as an unaware avoidant) I bet you would like her if I wasn't sharing a one-sided view of a fairly personal matter regardless of how much progress I've made in the last month.
Learning a lot here really fast, I think it's compounded with the other stresses too that's just making me have to address more of my issues all at once. Life is kind of funny or cruel like thst sometimes I think t inspire real growth/change.
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