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Post by mrob on Jul 26, 2023 14:46:12 GMT
emreyn, feel free to go back to my beginning on this board some years ago and have a look at what I was like in a fully fledged FA cycle. My ex-wife said it today. “Great father, sh*t husband”. (There was a reason, it’s not something that is said regularly). She’d be right, too. We co-parent well. The pressure is off, if that makes sense. The distance is there. I’ll always have her back and she’ll have mine, and I’d like to think I’ve come a fair way since coming here. I know that’s not always the case with most couples. I’d recommend anyone trying to co-parent set themselves up early using this. www.relationshipsvictoria.org.au/media/xv0byakc/share-care-booklet-2016.pdfA business type relationship can work with an FA for that lack of engulfment. That boundary. But, it’s not without work for both.
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Post by emreyn on Jul 26, 2023 17:15:13 GMT
Thank you for your responses. I really am struggling with this feeling that nothing was really real, my ex says he means what he says when he’s in positive mindset - when he says all the lovely things and makes all the promises and he means what he says in the moments he’s really negative. He says it’s all real. To me that could be argued that nothings really real. If that makes sense. He gets very upset if even allude to his feelings not being genuine. It makes me feel so very frustrated that he says “he loves me so much his heart could burst out of his chest” but cannot function in a relationship. Especially as we have a child together. It’s so hard as an AP not to take it all personally.
I worked our we’ve actually been together for 34 months, just shy of 3 years. But officially living together 2 years 4 months and I worked out- yes more ruminating- that since he moved in he has left 13 times sometimes for a few months. How do we fool ourselves that this kind of relationship is our happy ever after, because that’s what I feel I am mourning, it’s a very uncomfortable feeling of grieving a relationship and realising it wasn’t quite the relationship you think it was.
Can the depth of love and feelings ever be the same for a FA and AP? Because it feels so easy for him to walk away and actually say some pretty brutally hurtful things, even if they are his truth.
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Post by emreyn on Jul 26, 2023 17:40:18 GMT
But with all that said I think my focus is better directed on my anxious attachment, which actually I wonder if has become anxious through this relationship or whether my very secure ex husband just didn’t trigger that side before and therefore I became secure by default. It’s hard to tell.
I really do want to thank you all for your responses and insights, I’m so glad I have some sort of understanding of the situation I’m in and I guess I should feel for my ex as it doesn’t sound like it’s much fun to be a FA especially when dealing with depression etc.
We all try to do the best we can with the knowledge and ability we have at the time, that’s way I’d like to believe anyway x
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Post by sunrisequest on Jul 26, 2023 20:43:43 GMT
One helpful thing you could do in this situation is spend some time journalling out your reality, laying it all down to paper in terms of your recollection and perception, because it's actually your perception that needs to matter most to you at this time. And it does sound like you have plenty of self awareness and a very compassionate heart, so you're not going to make it totally one-sided. But also just write down the clear, indisputable facts, just as you have above.
I did this in a breakup fairly recently where I was left questioning the reality. And I was ruminating on all of the lovely, what felt like genuine words and expressions a lot, but then feeling utterly confused by the actions that ended up accompanying them.
This mis-match of words and actions is really just someone's insecurity playing out in real-time. Their own confusion and turmoil being projected into the relationship. In the end, I came to understand it was all real, but the actions spoke the loudest in terms of the truth of the situation.
The facts you write above, leaving 13 times in three years... these are the things to focus on. Try not to get hooked into the emotions and the words... try and stay focused on the facts of the history of your relationship, as this is telling you so much.
I agree with you, we are all doing our best, even when it's really toxic, hurtful, behaviour, so it's okay to hold compassion for that. But very important to protect yourself too. Hold your own standard, no matter what anyone else around you is doing.
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Post by alexandra on Jul 26, 2023 21:01:39 GMT
You can't gauge the FA experience and depth of feeling through your own. It reflects his capacity and the skills and tools he has for follow through and for mature and consistent relating, not his feelings. All 4 attachment styles experience very different mindsets from each other, which aren't intuitive to the other styles at all unless you've done a lot of research trying to figure it out. Even then, it can take a long time to understand.
The biggest takeaway is, the different attachment styles have evolved out of different emotional development, have different needs and fears, have different nervous conditioning, have different coping and defense mechanisms and strategies, and come with varying levels of dissociation from self as part of those coping mechanisms. So it's no wonder someone with another style might seem mind boggling and foreign to you!
In regards to you interpreting his experience as the inconsistency in his feelings means they are nothing, that is the AP interpretation: turning everything into the most negative story about yourself. What's actually most likely to be going on is, he has a weak sense of identity and object constancy. FA tend to be very reactionary to whatever is going on in front of them without a whole lot of consistency, and that's in part because that's how they grew up. In a state of constant shifting, random adult caretaker moods and behaviors with seemingly no rhyme or reason, that's why FA is also called disorganized attachment: they couldn't come up with an organized strategy to deal with their loved ones and caretakers because they didn't get consistent reactions and never knew what was going to happen. So, he is being honest when he tells you that he feels his feelings in the moment but then can't reconnect with them in other moments and might feel completely differently. It's actually because he's so disconnected from his own feelings due to them getting pushed down as painful when he was younger, them being too confusing to process when he was younger, or him being told he just needed to be different to get his needs met (which then still probably weren't met), so it's not even conscious anymore. He just doesn't know how he feels, unless he reconditions his nervous system (likely with professional help), processes his trauma, learns how to be connected to himself, and heals.
None of that has anything to do with you.
AP usually stick around these situations waiting for the happily ever after, seems so close if only x y and z can change!, because they dealt with their own inconsistent caretakers growing up. Which means ignoring the bad and fixating on the good so that they could stay attached to important figures who weren't meeting their needs either. Finding hope in the inconsistency instead of seeing inconsistency between words, actions, and feelings as a red flag about someone's capacity to show up in relationships and that they aren't a safe person to trust. But the inconsistency of the AP childhood experience wasn't usually quite as random, scary, or abusive to the same extent as FA dealt with. Not to say one style has it easier than another, they're all emotionally unavailable and need to heal from trauma. It just is different, with FA needing to work through both anxious and avoidant dysfunctional coping mechanisms together (distrust of self and others to varying degrees, fear of both abandonment and engulfment driving behaviors in different moments), and AP mainly needing to work through the anxious side (trusting others more than self, primary fear is abandonment, though subconscious fear is engulfment).
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Post by alexandra on Jul 26, 2023 21:15:00 GMT
All of that being said, I also think there's something more than FA going on here. Maybe BPD, though I can't say for certain because I can't diagnose him. There's a lot of extreme behavior and probably mental health issues underlying how this played out. He needs to want to seek help on his own to manage it, though, or nothing changes, aside from you doing your own work to strengthen your own boundaries enough to co parent without your own mood and ability to function being affected by his ups and downs.
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Post by sunrisequest on Jul 27, 2023 0:52:35 GMT
It does sound very borderline type behaviour to me as well... not that the label is super important and nobody can ever diagnose anyone else, but you may find some comfort and validation to do a little research around it, and get some ideas on how to best draw boundaries, and cope with the inevitable ups and downs that will follow, even as a co-parent. There's a really good borderline forum as well - BPDfamily. They've got some good tools written out on there.
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Post by mrob on Jul 27, 2023 2:29:36 GMT
I don’t think it is necessarily borderline, although I understand the likeness. I’d say it’s textbook FA behaviour. The circle between anxious preoccupation, engulfment, avoidance, then rinse and repeat. For me, what I felt was real. I didn’t future fake, it was sincere. I didn’t see the pattern for 20 years.
The other thing I want to say is that while some of the behaviour of APs might be proffered as “real love” in society, it’s not. It’s just another form of insecure attachment with its own stuff going on, but with consistency.
You’re absolutely right. We’re all doing the best with what we’ve got at the time.
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Post by alexandra on Jul 27, 2023 5:57:45 GMT
I don’t think it is necessarily borderline, although I understand the likeness. I’d say it’s textbook FA behaviour. Yeah, I'm not sure, and the amount of rushing at the beginning followed by the back and forth but it not seeming like it's a heartless lack of empathy plus the depression and suicide ideation is what made me suggest that. But actually... it might be FA + bipolar also. Again, I can't diagnose him, I don't know, I just think there's a couple layers of issues, with FA likely being one of them but not the entire driver. And it's something for OP to consider that this may be very complicated to navigate if he has multiple issues, so the focus on how to manage herself and what she and her kids need instead of trying to manage and influence his needs becomes even more important.
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Post by emreyn on Jul 27, 2023 13:35:56 GMT
He has himself questioned whether he has bipolar disorder but annoyingly used Google to help rule that out, as his moods change rapidly almost a few times a day, a high can be followed within minutes by an overwhelming sense of sadness. I remember when one of the people we work with who worked closely with him found out we were together he warned me off saying “he was a manic depressive” He’s had suicidal ideation for a lot of his life and often explains that it’s his comfort blanket, like his back up plan if all else fails.
I wish I could of supported him in our relationship more, but it’s hard when you’re in it. Sadly what I consider normal family life, such as eating meals together, stories at bedtime, days out where the latter seeming so arduous and draining (even if it was an hour) can lead to anyone secure or anxious to feel unwanted and unloved. Unless I’m so unaware of how anxious I actually am.
Surely there comes a point that no matter how bad you feel in yourself, your family and their needs come first at least on those occasions. I had people always telling me he doesn’t care, he can go for a drink with a friend, work etc. but he couldn’t spend a few hours actively engaging in an Easter hunt. That’s where the line blurs for me, and I don’t seem to be able to label his behaviour as “bad” when I think of his depression or FA. Which I’m guessing it still is?? Even if not “bad” definitely unacceptable.
Rambling now I guess!
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Post by emreyn on Jul 27, 2023 13:41:03 GMT
He has himself questioned whether he has bipolar disorder but annoyingly used Google to help rule that out, as his moods change rapidly almost a few times a day, a high can be followed within minutes by an overwhelming sense of sadness. I remember when one of the people we work with who worked closely with him found out we were together he warned me off saying “he was a manic depressive” He’s had suicidal ideation for a lot of his life and often explains that it’s his comfort blanket, like his back up plan if all else fails. I wish I could of supported him in our relationship more, but it’s hard when you’re in it. Sadly what I consider normal family life, such as eating meals together, stories at bedtime, days out where the latter seeming so arduous and draining (even if it was an hour) can lead to anyone secure or anxious to feel unwanted and unloved. Unless I’m so unaware of how anxious I actually am. Surely there comes a point that no matter how bad you feel in yourself, your family and their needs come first at least on those occasions. I had people always telling me he doesn’t care, he can go for a drink with a friend, work etc. but he couldn’t spend a few hours actively engaging in an Easter hunt. That’s where the line blurs for me, and I don’t seem to be able to label his behaviour as “bad” when I think of his depression or FA. Which I’m guessing it still is?? Even if not “bad” definitely unacceptable. Rambling now I guess! Alexandra- thank you for your explanation on the ap interpretation, so often he would say. Stop feeling sorry for yourself or stop taking things personally. It’s like I can’t accept it’s just the way it is. It’s like it has to be because I’m not worthy in his eyes. So doesn’t care enough to think about my needs. Mrob- you are spot on about AP and it’s not actually being love or loving behaviour, so often I would look at a situation and criticise his behaviour (usually internally) without thinking he was suffering, or thinking about him as a person I know him to be. I’d be fully in my ego and not connected to his pain at all.
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Post by mrob on Jul 27, 2023 15:17:53 GMT
The problem is, that within the AP/FA dance is that there is no right level of support without putting yourself through the wringer. An AP wants to come closer when the FA is feeling engulfed and trying to get away. Then when a breakup happens or somehow space is created, the FA thinks “I miss her. She wasn’t that bad, I got it wrong”. Then the whole cycle starts again. The cycles start slowly, then get quicker and more frequent. I’ve been on both sides and it is enough to send anybody crazy.
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Post by alexandra on Jul 27, 2023 18:06:19 GMT
He has himself questioned whether he has bipolar disorder but annoyingly used Google to help rule that out, as his moods change rapidly almost a few times a day, a high can be followed within minutes by an overwhelming sense of sadness. I remember when one of the people we work with who worked closely with him found out we were together he warned me off saying “he was a manic depressive” He’s had suicidal ideation for a lot of his life and often explains that it’s his comfort blanket, like his back up plan if all else fails. I wish I could of supported him in our relationship more, but it’s hard when you’re in it. This description does go along with BPD. It doesn't really help you much if you're keeping your lens and focus on him, because he needs to get a professional diagnosis and help not use Google, but it gives you something to look into for yourself for help in seeing how partners of people with those issues get impacted and how to respond in a way that prioritizes your mental health, especially when you are co-parenting. Or it helps you find a professional you can talk to for support, as you'd know you might be looking for a professional who is experienced with treating BPD / helping (former) partners recover from their experience on the receiving end. There's also very little support in the relationship that you can provide for someone who isn't ready, or doesn't want, to help themselves. No reason to beat yourself up about that... it is actually co-dependent to do so.
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Post by cherrycola on Jul 27, 2023 19:00:08 GMT
Bi-Polar can having over-lapping qualities with BPD. And then BPD overlaps with NPD (they are both cluster B disorders). Even a trained mental health practitioner can have a hard time teasing them apart. Regardless of if he has any or all of these diagnosis, you have YOUR reality. And YOUR reality is someone who does not show up for you or treat you well. From what you said about him he is trapped in a victim mentality and only he can fix this. Take a look at the drama triangle and what your role is in this, because if he is playing the victim then my guess is you are the rescuer.
My counselor told me I had a lot of compassion and empathy for others problems, because I could always see the motivation for why they did what they did, but it really didn't matter if they were repeatedly hurting me and not making any changes towards not hurting me.
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Post by emreyn on Jul 28, 2023 10:35:14 GMT
I don’t think it is necessarily borderline, although I understand the likeness. I’d say it’s textbook FA behaviour. The circle between anxious preoccupation, engulfment, avoidance, then rinse and repeat. For me, what I felt was real. I didn’t future fake, it was sincere. I didn’t see the pattern for 20 years. The other thing I want to say is that while some of the behaviour of APs might be proffered as “real love” in society, it’s not. It’s just another form of insecure attachment with its own stuff going on, but with consistency. You’re absolutely right. We’re all doing the best with what we’ve got at the time. Can I ask one more question? This may be specific to my ex but on the morning he last left, I said I could sense a shift in his mood, I asked outright if he was planning to leave, in a bid to stop the abrupt breakup cycle, i said if you’re feeling overwhelmed and are wanting to break up/take space please go now when I’m ready for it. I explained the worst thing for me is him breaking up with me out of the blue which sends me into a full on panic attack no matter how logical his reasoning is or how calm he is. He said no he wanted to to be with me, he left for work, little communication throughout the day but light and easy and then a nice phone call ended in him saying he wasn’t happy, didn’t want this anymore and wasn’t coming home but that he loved me… insights?
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