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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 20:09:52 GMT
no, scheme, i have simply posted my perspective which differs from the posts that contain the elements i refer to. i do not find this personally wounding i find it imbalanced. it’s my perspective and i shared it the same way another member might, that’s all. it either resonates or it doesn’t, that’s ok.  |
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Post by kristyrose on Jan 3, 2018 20:55:43 GMT
tgat,
I appreciate this initial post as well as the other ones you have provided.
We should all be able to post our various opinions, experiences and perspectives without fear and politely agree to disagree. I don't fully agree with your entire initial post in this thread, but I can definitely see some valid points and appreciate what you bring to the forum.
I hope you decide to stay on, we are all a work-in-progress and the fact that any of us even come on this board says a lot about how strong we all are in wanting to better understand ourselves and the people we love.
The Avoidant perspective is greatly appreciated by many of us on here and you should have the right to vent about AP's in the same fashion most of us vent about our partners.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 21:37:49 GMT
One of the keys to a relationship that works is to grow in the ability to hear another persons story, opinions, or whatever from a place of equanimity, recognising it as something that has been formed by the millions of experiences they've had throughout their lives, their dna, family of origin and everything else.
We may not agree, will certainly be triggered by anyone with whom we have a close relationship but it's a great gift to ourselves and everyone we come into contact with if we can learn to hold and listen with compassion, notice the reaction it brings up within ourselves and then allow it to be without attaching a story, playing the blame game. Resisting and noticing the urge to be reactive.
I understand hurt, pain, the urge to blame, hate and all the rest - trust me I have been there. But recently real freedom has come from not expecting other people to live up to my "requirements", realising that none of this is personal and learning to let go of my stuff inside to allow life to flow more smoothly.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 21:46:57 GMT
I don't agree with everything posted but I am glad there is room for disagreement for everyone. |
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Post by scheme00 on Jan 3, 2018 22:06:29 GMT
I am also glad to have DAs on the site so we can have a better understanding. It's seems I'm most sexually attracted to them so if I can understand them more then hopefully I can manage my own expectations better.
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Post by Jeb Kinnison on Jan 3, 2018 22:29:51 GMT
Moderator here. The thread as I first saw it didn't make a lot of sense because Missyb had apparently deleted her replies, then added a lot of noise in a meltdown before flouncing (leaving in a public huff.)
I didn't see Tgat's OP as a problem, and I appreciate her contributions to the dialog. So I've deleted Missyb's noise posts (profanity, paranoid rantings, etc.) -- this site costs money to run, and I wrote the books not to make money but to help people understand how to deal with different attachment types in their lives. I don't have time to read every thread here, and the great thing about this site is that other knowledgeable people have joined to help out others. I used to respond to every email and try to help, but there are simply too many long, sad stories and heartfelt pleas to do them all justice. So thanks to all for helping each other and letting me work on other things!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 22:36:33 GMT
disagreement is so natural and to be expected, among any humans discussing any topic Interpreting actions of a DA so negatively to the point I have seen is just so unbalanced and biased and unfair, in my opinion. Anyway, I feel i expressed myself the way it made most sense to me and don’t expect agreement, this is simply one persons take. Every individual and each relationship will be influenced by countless factors- but DA is not always comorbid with sociopathic tendencies, goodness. Of course I don’t take it to heart here,but it is really not useful to me to read that over and over again as i have, so maybe this forum is more useful for the people venting than the attachment style being vented about. There are resources that are more helpful to me that I would prefer to engage with. Thank you all for your feedback. We are all in it together, and I wish all of you the best in your personal journeys |
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Post by Jeb Kinnison on Jan 3, 2018 22:52:36 GMT
disagreement is so natural and to be expected, among any humans discussing any topic Interpreting actions of a DA so negatively to the point I have seen is just so unbalanced and biased and unfair, in my opinion. Anyway, I feel i expressed myself the way it made most sense to me and don’t expect agreement, this is simply one persons take. Every individual and each relationship will be influenced by countless factors- but DA is not always comorbid with sociopathic tendencies, goodness. Of course I don’t take it to heart here,but it is really not useful to me to read that over and over again as i have, so maybe this forum is more useful for the people venting than the attachment style being vented about. There are resources that are more helpful to me that I would prefer to engage with. Thank you all for your feedback. We are all in it together, and I wish all of you the best in your personal journeys This is entirely correct. Typical avoidants have a blind spot, but it is not consciously intended to cause others emotional harm, but an automatic defense mechanism developed to keep their egos from being crushed by being drawn into intimacies that hurt them during formative years. I mention in "Avoidant" that the AP have a similar self-centeredness in expecting attention and responsiveness from those close to them, and the dynamic where the AP punishes and tries to change a DA to respond is the flipside of the DA's nightmare of being suffocated by emotional demands. Most people here have progressed beyond this and understand that the love object that hurt them needs to be released. One of the processes we see here is when someone arrives wounded and not understanding what happened, and gradually realizes by seeing many other examples that their fixation on someone who isn't going to naturally be there for them was also a cause for their pain. Seeing what it looks like for someone with a DA's reflexes makes for an "oh, now I see" moment that helps the AP change their own attitude toward future relationships toward a more healthy and secure style. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 23:04:46 GMT
Thank you for that input, Jeb. I haven’t read your book but have grown over the course of many years of various therapeutic modalities. Compassion and love and understanding for myself has been hard won, and is unshakeable now. But the negative characterizatons of a DA’s intrinsic nature i have read here are not at all unlike the verbal, emotional and psychological abuse and character assasination I experienced from my narcissistic mother. I have grown past a vulnerability to it but find it unnecessary static for my own process. It’s just old tapes that i don’t bother listening to anymore |
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Post by scheme00 on Jan 3, 2018 23:16:10 GMT
disagreement is so natural and to be expected, among any humans discussing any topic Interpreting actions of a DA so negatively to the point I have seen is just so unbalanced and biased and unfair, in my opinion. Anyway, I feel i expressed myself the way it made most sense to me and don’t expect agreement, this is simply one persons take. Every individual and each relationship will be influenced by countless factors- but DA is not always comorbid with sociopathic tendencies, goodness. Of course I don’t take it to heart here,but it is really not useful to me to read that over and over again as i have, so maybe this forum is more useful for the people venting than the attachment style being vented about. There are resources that are more helpful to me that I would prefer to engage with. Thank you all for your feedback. We are all in it together, and I wish all of you the best in your personal journeys This is entirely correct. Typical avoidants have a blind spot, but it is not consciously intended to cause others emotional harm, but an automatic defense mechanism developed to keep their egos from being crushed by being drawn into intimacies that hurt them during formative years. I mention in "Avoidant" that the AP have a similar self-centeredness in expecting attention and responsiveness from those close to them, and the dynamic where the AP punishes and tries to change a DA to respond is the flipside of the DA's nightmare of being suffocated by emotional demands. Most people here have progressed beyond this and understand that the love object that hurt them needs to be released. One of the processes we see here is when someone arrives wounded and not understanding what happened, and gradually realizes by seeing many other examples that their fixation on someone who isn't going to naturally be there for them was also a cause for their pain. Seeing what it looks like for someone with a DA's reflexes makes for an "oh, now I see" moment that helps the AP change their own attitude toward future relationships toward a more healthy and secure style. Jeb, your two books (BB, Avoidants) have changed my life in such a positive way that I just wanted to thank you personally. Now that I'm single I am so much more aware in my ability to judge who is a potential long term partner for me and who may just be around for a good time. Thanks again. |
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Post by yasmin on Jan 3, 2018 23:52:53 GMT
Id guess many of the avoidant members are here to learn / improve / focus on themselves, whereas there's a lot of AP members here to try and look for understanding of the behaviour of the avoidant in their life? Maybe this is why it feels unbalanced (I agree it does) as the focus is quite often on trying to understand the avoidant.
Also there's room to see people have varying levels of capability to hurt others and behave badly or selfishly regardless of their attachment style.
I'm predominantly secure (maybe slight FA tendencies but I'm largely comfortable with intimacy and hold myself and others in high regard) but that doesn't mean I'm incapable of hurting others.
There's two avoidants in my life... one is my closest friend and the other I'm on and off dating and they're both undoubtedly two of the most honest, kind and loving people I've ever met - they just happen to get freaked out by intimacy sometimes and I do think they hurt themselves as much as others.
I think Jebs book has it right... avoidants or APs are just best suited to relationships with secure people who can handle things without becoming deeply miserable and when you mix two people together who's needs and behaviours hurt each other over and over again it's just toxic. It doesn't make either one bad... just bad for each other.
I'm really grateful to everyone here for all their input. It's really helped my relationship with my FA and also with myself (I've had my own avoidant tendencies illuminated a little).
You can't change anyone but yourself and no one would choose to have a disrupted attachment system.
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Post by tnr9 on Jan 4, 2018 0:20:27 GMT
I have been watching this post unfold all day...but was not able to post. One thing I think that I have come to understand is that what feels most natural to an AP is actually self abandonment. Our focus on and desire for the other person often leads us to have many needs that we want the other person to meet....but to the detriment of being able to meet them ourselves and be our own best advocate. What feels most natural to an avoidant seems to be to abandon others to protect the self. The focus becomes being very independent, able to take care of your needs, but sometimes to the detriment of your partner. I think what makes secures so attractive is that there is balance between self respect and other respect. There is no motive of self protection or the need for someone else to meet my needs. I hope I can get there one day.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 0:41:25 GMT
I have been watching this post unfold all day...but was not able to post. One thing I think that I have come to understand is that what feels most natural to an AP is actually self abandonment. Our focus on and desire for the other person often leads us to have many needs that we want the other person to meet....but to the detriment of being able to meet them ourselves and be our own best advocate. What feels most natural to an avoidant seems to be to abandon others to protect the self. The focus becomes being very independent, able to take care of your needs, but sometimes to the detriment of your partner. I think what makes secures so attractive is that there is balance between self respect and other respect. There is no motive of self protection or the need for someone else to meet my needs. I hope I can get there one day. I agree with this but I also feel like there is nothing wrong with being in a loving relationship and desiring that someone meet your needs. One problem that has developed is that the word "need" has become somewhat of a 4 letter word in our socitey. Secure relationships are reciprocal. Two people look out for the needs of one another, in any relationship, friend, family, lover. We all have a need for love and security and if we enter a relationship we should expect to a degree that those needs will be met. Mutual dependence is not a bad thing, it is at the very core of relationships. While it is is not wrong to need, how we go about communicating those needs can be unproductive. Likewise, how we respond to our partner requesting what they need can be damaging. Mutual respect and good communication goes a long way. Even with a secure person there will be disagreements and hurt feelings, but the way they communicate in a respectful way makes the difference. They are not afraid to voice their needs because they expect to be heard out. They know that if they are not at least heard out, there is no sense in trying to get what they need from that person. They eventually move on. I regret that I didn't listen to my secure voice in my last relationship. If I had I would have moved on much sooner and saved myself a lot of grief. Don't feel ashamed about having needs. But DO learn to accept that no everyone is equipped to give you what you need. Doesn't make you a bad person for needing though. It makes you secure to realized when to give up trying to get blood from a turnip. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 1:37:05 GMT
interdependence is good.
dependence, not good.
boundaries, respect and care for self and others, personal responsibility, good.
Disrespect and control, neglect of self and others, blaming and shaming, not good.
Here is an example of how different a behavior looks from the outside vs what is going on inside:
Sometimes, when an avoidant is withdrawn and not communicative, they are simply refraining from lashing out or refuse to defend themselves, and are taking some time to figure out and possibly regulate their real, valid emotions. So they can figure out what to do. They may never figure it out with their current partner but they may be trying.
sometimes, they stop talking because they were honest and have stated their intentions, preferences, or limitations till they were blue in the face when pressed and pressed for compliance with the needy partner, and they are exhausted and tired of defending themselves. They might feel stuck and unsure how to extricate themselves just like their partner feels stuck. They may have mixed feelings and hurt feelings and longing for love just like their partner, with no better way to address those things than their partner has. Who is the bad guy? Is there a bad guy?
In many cases their silence will be interpreted as a refusal to communicate when in fact, they are well aware that they are not being listened to and talking is a waste of time and energy and only makes them feel worse. Listening is a part of communication. A huge part.
So, it’s just an example of how things get twisted and DA takes the blame. This stuff goes both ways. But I refer back to my original points and stand by them, as my perspective.
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Post by tnr9 on Jan 4, 2018 2:13:06 GMT
interdependence is good. dependence, not good. boundaries, respect and care for self and others, personal responsibility, good. Disrespect and control, neglect of self and others, blaming and shaming, not good. Here is an example of how different a behavior looks from the outside vs what is going on inside: Sometimes, when an avoidant is withdrawn and not communicative, they are simply refraining from lashing out or refuse to defend themselves, and are taking some time to figure out and possibly regulate their real, valid emotions. So they can figure out what to do. They may never figure it out with their current partner but they may be trying. sometimes, they stop talking because they were honest and have stated their intentions, preferences, or limitations till they were blue in the face when pressed and pressed for compliance with the needy partner, and they are exhausted and tired of defending themselves. They might feel stuck and unsure how to extricate themselves just like their partner feels stuck. They may have mixed feelings and hurt feelings and longing for love just like their partner, with no better way to address those things than their partner has. Who is the bad guy? Is there a bad guy? In many cases their silence will be interpreted as a refusal to communicate when in fact, they are well aware that they are not being listened to and talking is a waste of time and energy and only makes them feel worse. Listening is a part of communication. A huge part. So, it’s just an example of how things get twisted and DA takes the blame. This stuff goes both ways. But I refer back to my original points and stand by them, as my perspective. I appreciate this perspective.....I think however it isn't only APs who have posted, but also mainly secures who have found their partner's behavior to be perplexing. I want to move the dial away from this simply being an AP issue. i am not sure if you read my story or understand what i call my personal flavor of AP....but indulge me if you will for one moment. Both my parents were DA with me...I believe my dad was even a bit of a Narc. I was a very emotional child and really could not understand why my mom needed to spend so much time away from me...why she always seemed angry, exhausted, frustrated with me. I internalized all the issues to be my responsibility and figured if I could get it right...then they would love me. I am not sure when my attachment system went haywire and started to warn me of danger, even when there wasn't any. So I became hypervigilent for clues that my mom was not happy with me while seeking those moments when she was happy with me. Just as the avoidant is not doing things to intentionally hurt their partner, the AP is coming at it...just from the opposite side. Instead is self regulating, our attachment system looks for the other person to help us to regulate our emotions...I say "help" because I don't need my partner to text all day...one well timed text is enough to calm the system and return me back to being ok...just like what I had hoped would be more regularly with my mom. Had it been consistent...I think I would have learned self regulation and my attachment system would not have gone haywire...but it did. I think when a DA and AP try for a relationship...then triggering is bound to happen...but we can both learn how to work better with each other if we are able to take the time to listen to each other and communicate our needs effectively. |
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