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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2018 14:22:19 GMT
One perspective, is that from the outside, the needy and dependent and manipulative behavior of an AP looks absurdly childish and immature.
Children are powerless over their parents, and are innocent and genuinely dependent.
Adult AP’s who are still stuck seem to equate their powerlessness over their partner with innocence.
They loved their parents in their child state and seem to think that their immature enmeshment ad an adult is love, instead of an addiction or compulsion. When that sickness gets regjectd by a DA they feel victimized. As innocents.
Of course, their adult partner who does not share their needs for enmeshment and is in fact repelled by them, is seen by the adult child as , you guessed it. A monster. All their life long fears become exaggerated . Another person who is also acting out of unconscious habits becomes a monster, larger than life. Intentionally evil.
Of course, the AP’s inability to control their inner state is innocent and unintentional/ But the monster is an intentional evildoer.
Anxiety on the AP can give way to paranoia.... but guess what. They are innocent so they must be right. That doesn’t make sense to anyone but an AP.
There is no winning this discussion with an AP. They can dish out blame but not take it.
What a charming trait! Something like a narcissist. It inflicts harm, but it’s unintentional, unlike their DA partner. That’s the monster. The narcissist with no empathy.
Oops. This forum is not about stuff like that it’s about the monster. Fiction. Sorry!
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Post by tnr9 on Jan 6, 2018 14:44:29 GMT
One perspective, is that from the outside, the needy and dependent and manipulative behavior of an AP looks absurdly childish and immature. Children are powerless over their parents, and are innocent and genuinely dependent. Adult AP’s who are still stuck seem to equate their powerlessness over their partner with innocence. They loved their parents in their child state and seem to think that their immature enmeshment ad an adult is love, instead of an addiction or compulsion. When that sickness gets regjectd by a DA they feel victimized. As innocents. Of course, their adult partner who does not share their needs for enmeshment and is in fact repelled by them, is seen by the adult child as , you guessed it. A monster. All their life long fears become exaggerated . Another person who is also acting out of unconscious habits becomes a monster, larger than life. Intentionally evil. Of course, the AP’s inability to control their inner state is innocent and unintentional/ But the monster is an intentional evildoer. Anxiety on the AP can give way to paranoia.... but guess what. They are innocent so they must be right. That doesn’t make sense to anyone but an AP. There is no winning this discussion with an AP. They can dish out blame but not take it. What a charming trait! Something like a narcissist. It inflicts harm, but it’s unintentional, unlike their DA partner. That’s the monster. The narcissist with no empathy. Oops. This forum is not about stuff like that it’s about the monster. Fiction. Sorry! Interesting.....I guess the only APs you have ever interacted with are the ones that blame others and not the ones that blame themselves. I agree that neither side of the insecure spectrum is "right"....both must come to terms with what attracted them to each other and what they did that caused the continuation of an unhealthy relationship. I know that I have a lot of introspection and internal work yet to do. I wish you well on your journey.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2018 15:02:36 GMT
I think APs come in all flavors, as do Avoidants along a large spectrum, not to mention other variables such as personality, family history, physiology, etc. Each couple has their own complicated story, and I can definitely understand why some are more traumatized by their experience than others. While some facts exist, eg. more Avoidants in the dating pool with age/time, lack of attention to partners' needs lead to greater odds of divorce, abuse is wrong, etc. reality can be a lot more complex and grey for some coupling.
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Post by Jaeger on Jan 7, 2018 2:39:46 GMT
Thank you for offering your view and opinion. Being truly open to all ideas, considering their merits and reaching our own conclusions, then testing them against the rigors of reality to see how they hold up is the way forward for all people struggling with relationships. The lessons one is capable of learning from the same situation at that particular time differ for each individual, however. Insight, acceptance and change cannot be forced.
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Post by yasmin on Jan 7, 2018 12:17:19 GMT
I've personally found it really helpful to see the anxious behaviors (I have some) called out as negative.
I've historically had some testing behaviors with relationships... like needing reassurance and maybe being manipulative to get it, subtly making people jealous and expecting adoration. I'd always thought of these in a positive way like I had standards. It's been enlightening to see these in the cold light of day as selfish, needy and dishonest.
I think this forum is going to really help improve both my avoidant and anxious negative patterns and I'm excited to relate to others in new ways now.
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Post by kelvain on Jan 9, 2018 19:33:44 GMT
I don't feel that either AP's or DA's should be classified as negative. Both just happen to have opposing points of view/approaches to "relationships". In the eyes of an AP, the DA is wrong for being too cold/insensitive/preoccupied with everything other than their partner. In the eyes of the DA, the AP is wrong for being too needy/sensitive/preoccupied with their partner. Villainizing either attachment style is only achieved when an opinion is formed. Both AP's and DA's are only being what they are. Some agree with them, respectively, and some do not. The negative aspect of either only truly comes into play when the person is aware of 'who they are' as far as attachment style, and they remain in a relationship that is having issues which stem from their attachment style, yet they do nothing to correct it while blaming the other for being the cause of the issues. BUT...when either style is made to be self aware, they (should) have an obligation to the person they are in a relationship to point this out and either try to change it or give their partner the option of staying or going if they refuse to change it (This is who I am, like it or not). The fault lies with the person who is self aware yet still goes about "business as usual" without taking some form of action or responsibility.
I have dated a DA for 10 years. I've been through the ups and downs, push and pull. My DA's current pattern for the past 2 years has been 3 months on, 1-2 months off. I myself am a 'Recovering Anxious Preoccupied' as I so call it. After reading Avoidant: How to Love (or leave) a Dismissive Partner, and doing much research on the topic of attachment styles -which I find quite fascinating- I arrived at the realization that I had issues, which I was not aware of prior, and that were in desperate need of being addressed. At the moment of my epiphany, I found that my philosophy as an AP was flawed. I was placing (projecting) my own beliefs of what a relationship should be onto my DA partner instead of either accepting her for who she was or deciding if it would be better to find someone else since she was/is resistant to changing her beliefs/character traits. I am now on my way to becoming a Secure Attachment Style. It is a goal which started with the realization of my own attachment style and the desire/decision to change. I no longer blame her for the things I once found upsetting which were borne from her qualities of character (as a DA). Now that I have a bit better grasp on our styles, I simply ask myself if I will be able to continue on with her the way she is, should she not want to compromise by also attempting a change. Unfortunately at the moment we are in the 'off again' phase so I will better be able to assess things when she inevitably comes back like she has for the past 10 years.
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Post by scheme00 on Jan 9, 2018 20:09:12 GMT
Damn kelvain, I admire your mental strength and willpower.
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Post by kelvain on Jan 9, 2018 20:51:56 GMT
Thanks sceme00. Much appreciate your kinds words. As far as changing my attachment style; I am not doing anything that anyone else here can't do. As far as my DA is concerned; she is an amazing girl and the past 10 years, although a rollercoaster, were filled with highs that were like Mount Everest...total connection on every level, mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually, and often outweighed the lows of separation.
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Post by scheme00 on Jan 9, 2018 21:31:30 GMT
What does she act like/do in her avoidant stages?
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Post by kelvain on Jan 10, 2018 2:12:04 GMT
What does she act like/do in her avoidant stages? When she begins to go into her Avoidant stage it could be one of several scenarios. At times she will begin by slowly choking off communication. Typically she lessens the length of her responses(one word replies via text), as well as removing the depth and/or warmer, more loving tone. Her texts come across as sounding cold and strictly informational. This will persist over several days until I ask her if anything is troubling her, at such pint she would break up with me. Other times it’s as if she just fades away. Whereas she will be communicating with messages of warmth and love in the morning, then by evening, she is barely responding. Still other times, she will be in a total immersed state of love and expressing it in actions and words only to disappear without so much as a warning or even a word. She would just completely cut all communication with me. However, when she is in the midst of her Avoidant stage (like at this moment) she tells me that she either wants to be alone or the relationship isn’t right for her. She pushes me away and gets annoyed if I try to reason with her or try to convince her otherwise. Doing so will only deepen her conviction and negative view of the relationship. I have learned to respect her point of view and have also learned how to be patient. LOTS OF PATIENCE IS NEEDED my friend! Over the course of years, I have learned to trust that she will come back. She has every time thus far and I have faith that she will again. The longest we were apart without any form of communication was 3 months. I didn’t even acknowledge her birthday, which shook her to the core. She said she drove around the entire day, waiting for my call or a text. When midnight came, she said she wept all night. In short, whenever she went into the Avoidant state, she wanted nothing to do with me. I would have to wait until I thought she was ready to hear from me again and then I would slowly get her to warm up to me once more until she wanted to be together again. I hope this helps
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Post by scheme00 on Jan 10, 2018 2:33:10 GMT
God that sounds exactly like my ex. Except I do t think there will be another time. We dated for a year and a half. Twice the unofficial "relationship" ended and we didn't talk for 2-4 months. Then I would see her and I would make effort and we would date again. We last dated for 8 months and I drove to her house and broke up with her because I couldn't handle it anymore. She's not the type to reach out and I am trying to move on even though I can't seem to.
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Post by pooched on Jan 10, 2018 2:36:24 GMT
What does she act like/do in her avoidant stages? When she begins to go into her Avoidant stage it could be one of several scenarios. At times she will begin by slowly choking off communication. Typically she lessens the length of her responses(one word replies via text), as well as removing the depth and/or warmer, more loving tone. Her texts come across as sounding cold and strictly informational. This will persist over several days until I ask her if anything is troubling her, at such pint she would break up with me. Other times it’s as if she just fades away. Whereas she will be communicating with messages of warmth and love in the morning, then by evening, she is barely responding. Still other times, she will be in a total immersed state of love and expressing it in actions and words only to disappear without so much as a warning or even a word. She would just completely cut all communication with me. However, when she is in the midst of her Avoidant stage (like at this moment) she tells me that she either wants to be alone or the relationship isn’t right for her. She pushes me away and gets annoyed if I try to reason with her or try to convince her otherwise. Doing so will only deepen her conviction and negative view of the relationship. I have learned to respect her point of view and have also learned how to be patient. LOTS OF PATIENCE IS NEEDED my friend! Over the course of years, I have learned to trust that she will come back. She has every time thus far and I have faith that she will again. The longest we were apart without any form of communication was 3 months. I didn’t even acknowledge her birthday, which shook her to the core. She said she drove around the entire day, waiting for my call or a text. When midnight came, she said she wept all night. In short, whenever she went into the Avoidant state, she wanted nothing to do with me. I would have to wait until I thought she was ready to hear from me again and then I would slowly get her to warm up to me once more until she wanted to be together again. I hope this helps This is just so very sad.
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Post by kelvain on Jan 10, 2018 3:04:41 GMT
When she begins to go into her Avoidant stage it could be one of several scenarios. At times she will begin by slowly choking off communication. Typically she lessens the length of her responses(one word replies via text), as well as removing the depth and/or warmer, more loving tone. Her texts come across as sounding cold and strictly informational. This will persist over several days until I ask her if anything is troubling her, at such pint she would break up with me. Other times it’s as if she just fades away. Whereas she will be communicating with messages of warmth and love in the morning, then by evening, she is barely responding. Still other times, she will be in a total immersed state of love and expressing it in actions and words only to disappear without so much as a warning or even a word. She would just completely cut all communication with me. However, when she is in the midst of her Avoidant stage (like at this moment) she tells me that she either wants to be alone or the relationship isn’t right for her. She pushes me away and gets annoyed if I try to reason with her or try to convince her otherwise. Doing so will only deepen her conviction and negative view of the relationship. I have learned to respect her point of view and have also learned how to be patient. LOTS OF PATIENCE IS NEEDED my friend! Over the course of years, I have learned to trust that she will come back. She has every time thus far and I have faith that she will again. The longest we were apart without any form of communication was 3 months. I didn’t even acknowledge her birthday, which shook her to the core. She said she drove around the entire day, waiting for my call or a text. When midnight came, she said she wept all night. In short, whenever she went into the Avoidant state, she wanted nothing to do with me. I would have to wait until I thought she was ready to hear from me again and then I would slowly get her to warm up to me once more until she wanted to be together again. I hope this helps This is just so very sad. How do you mean 'sad' pooched?
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Post by scheme00 on Jan 10, 2018 3:07:22 GMT
I think he means sad in the sense that the poster has to live in this unfortunate state of limbo over and over because of his partners push-pull.
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Post by kelvain on Jan 10, 2018 3:42:07 GMT
It was sad and exhausting. Unfortunately, I allowed it. I accepted it. I was trapped in the AP/DA cycle with her and didn't even see it for what it was. Now, being aware, and changing my attachment style to secure (through much determination), I'm not even thinking about her that much. The strange thing that I noticed is that I have become aware that my thoughts about her have changed. I am no longer desperate to contact her like the old days. Rather I'm enjoying the break so that I can concentrate on things I enjoy like writing my new novel and working on a screenplay. I'm also really enjoying get close with friends of the opposite gender who are quite wonderful people. I was very careful of that kind of thing previously because my DA was extremely jealous. Now...oh well At this point, if she wanted to come back, I'm not sure I want to deal with the aloofness. Like I said in another thread... It's great when she's into it. But now that I'm looking at things differently, I'm not so sure.
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