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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 14:29:42 GMT
@mary , i get where you are at. completely. there is a lot of fear there, i don't know if you recognize it. it's ok if you were to continue with your partner. i mean, unless you feel it is more detrimental than good. my partner and i were destructive in some ways to each other before we learned to be constructive. our conflicts were riddled with meanness driven by fear and selfishness. now our conflicts have evolved beyond recognition and become incidents of vulnerability, healthy communication, grace, listening , and friendship. having two people be willing- well, figuring that out, for insecure types, is a complete mindfuck. seriously. most people on this forum truly are more concerned about what their partner is or is not doing, and they are judging it through their own fucked up projecting lens. i am not intending to be hurtful , and i consistently hold my self in check on this. i am not going to put the onus on you for some recent difficulty but i will use your situation as an example of the need for introspection and self love as a priority. please forgive if i offend, i mean only to illuminate for your good. we can say your partner is an asshole for becoming annoyed about your period "problem." he was insensitive and boorish, really. however, you at the time were yourself unaware of a need for support and tolerance and kindness to handle what is your burden, as a natural woman- so the kindness and request for support and understanding, starts with you. an alternative outcome can be- to stand up for yourself and say with vulnerability "i have my period, and i am frustrated by the need to go change. i need your kindness in this regard, and would appreciate your support. " and then he would have an opportunity to repair, and a lesson will have been learned and communication and trust and care for the self and the other can grow. now, i know you weren't here complaining about that- but what i am saying, and trying to emphasize , is that the more we love and care for ourselves and hold ourselves to the standard we have FOR OUR PARTNER, the more potential we have to grow as individuals and as a couple. i know your partner has behaved in ways that are hurtful. so i am not encouraging you to stay or go. if, however, he is in a place to confront HIS OWN issues while you confront yours, then this relationship has potential to bloom also. i think most of us tend to see things as black and white moment by moment, instead of seeing a spectrum of possibilities. Thank you for this. You can be straightforward with me as you like. I am not offended easily and it's helpful. You are completely right. It's fear. Fear that he has penetrated my shell and will hurt me again, worse than he already has. Fear that I cannot trust him. On the one hand, I feel like I am loving myself by not putting up with his behavior and leaving him. On the other hand, I am sure I contributed in ways that I probably don't even know. The odd thing is that I do see some potential still there, but the feeling of betraying myself if I go back is strong. I am editing this to add: Is the feeling of betraying myself old thinking or new thinking? Is this unnecessary or necessary self protection?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 14:38:04 GMT
@mary , i get where you are at. completely. there is a lot of fear there, i don't know if you recognize it. it's ok if you were to continue with your partner. i mean, unless you feel it is more detrimental than good. my partner and i were destructive in some ways to each other before we learned to be constructive. our conflicts were riddled with meanness driven by fear and selfishness. now our conflicts have evolved beyond recognition and become incidents of vulnerability, healthy communication, grace, listening , and friendship. having two people be willing- well, figuring that out, for insecure types, is a complete mindfuck. seriously. most people on this forum truly are more concerned about what their partner is or is not doing, and they are judging it through their own fucked up projecting lens. i am not intending to be hurtful , and i consistently hold my self in check on this. i am not going to put the onus on you for some recent difficulty but i will use your situation as an example of the need for introspection and self love as a priority. please forgive if i offend, i mean only to illuminate for your good. we can say your partner is an asshole for becoming annoyed about your period "problem." he was insensitive and boorish, really. however, you at the time were yourself unaware of a need for support and tolerance and kindness to handle what is your burden, as a natural woman- so the kindness and request for support and understanding, starts with you. an alternative outcome can be- to stand up for yourself and say with vulnerability "i have my period, and i am frustrated by the need to go change. i need your kindness in this regard, and would appreciate your support. " and then he would have an opportunity to repair, and a lesson will have been learned and communication and trust and care for the self and the other can grow. now, i know you weren't here complaining about that- but what i am saying, and trying to emphasize , is that the more we love and care for ourselves and hold ourselves to the standard we have FOR OUR PARTNER, the more potential we have to grow as individuals and as a couple. i know your partner has behaved in ways that are hurtful. so i am not encouraging you to stay or go. if, however, he is in a place to confront HIS OWN issues while you confront yours, then this relationship has potential to bloom also. i think most of us tend to see things as black and white moment by moment, instead of seeing a spectrum of possibilities. Thank you for this. You can be straightforward with me as you like. I am not offended easily and it's helpful. You are completely tight. It's fear. Fear that he has penetrated my shell and will hurt me again, worse than he already has. Fear that I cannot trust him. On the one hand, I feel like I am loving myself by not putting up with his behavior and leaving him. On the other hand, I am sure I contributed in ways that I probably don't even know. The odd thing is that I do see some potential still there, but the feeling of betraying myself if I go back is strong. I WRESTLED WITH THIS INCESSANTLY. so here is what i did: i stayed close to my recovery and just moved forward with him. i have spent a lot of time every day being present to my self, all my feelings and fears, and handled it moment by moment. i changed myself. i started opening to solutions to my fears instead of being driven into the cave by them. so: i am afraid of something. i step back to see if it is something i can do something differently about- instead of running. can i address it with myself and my partner? most of the time, in fact all of the time now, the answer is yes. chances are, you are complicit in all of your wounding in this relationship and if you heal your part it can change- whether you stay or go, your pattern with change for the good. we need people around us to support us in that endeavor. i rely heavily on goldilocks, and this forum. and i have some other women i have included in my journey. and i have exposed all of my whole self to my partner but it took a couple years now of feeling it out day by day. he is a wonderful partner. but at one time i was very afraid of how he might and did hurt me. not physically- my emotional wounds were fair game for both of us. and it goes both ways. your partner has his own wounds. the joy is in tending to all, without prejudice. it takes time and the establishment of trust and that is an active endeavor for you internally and with him, of you so choose. he cannot be expected to step up and bridge the trust gap. it takes two to keep evolving. a lot of times we expect more secure behavior from our partner than we try to develop in ourselves and that is pure horseshit, honestly.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 14:56:19 GMT
Thank you for this. You can be straightforward with me as you like. I am not offended easily and it's helpful. You are completely tight. It's fear. Fear that he has penetrated my shell and will hurt me again, worse than he already has. Fear that I cannot trust him. On the one hand, I feel like I am loving myself by not putting up with his behavior and leaving him. On the other hand, I am sure I contributed in ways that I probably don't even know. The odd thing is that I do see some potential still there, but the feeling of betraying myself if I go back is strong. I WRESTLED WITH THIS INCESSANTLY. so here is what i did: i stayed close to my recovery and just moved forward with him. i have spent a lot of time every day being present to my self, all my feelings and fears, and handled it moment by moment. i changed myself. i started opening to solutions to my fears instead of being driven into the cave by them. so: i am afraid of something. i step back to see if it is something i can do something differently about- instead of running. can i address it with myself and my partner? most of the time, in fact all of the time now, the answer is yes. chances are, you are complicit in all of your wounding in this relationship and if you heal your part it can change- whether you stay or go, your pattern with change for the good. we need people around us to support us in that endeavor. i rely heavily on goldilocks , and this forum. and i have some other women i have included in my journey. and i have exposed all of my whole self to my partner but it took a couple years now of feeling it out day by day. he is a wonderful partner. but at one time i was very afraid of how he might and did hurt me. not physically- my emotional wounds were fair game for both of us. and it goes both ways. your partner has his own wounds. the joy is in tending to all, without prejudice. it takes time and the establishment of trust and that is an active endeavor for you internally and with him, of you so choose. he cannot be expected to step up and bridge the trust gap. it takes two to keep evolving. a lot of times we expect more secure behavior from our partner than we try to develop in ourselves and that is pure horseshit, honestly. That is probably very true. I do admit, it is hard to "see" my own behavior. Because of this, I asked him many times what it was that I was doing to contribute to the situation. He didn't have an answer. I go over and over and I still don't know. I asked my therapist and she said my contribution is that I stayed with him too long and I didn't adequately tell him to stop doing these things. I wrestle with, why should I have to tell someone to stop being an asshole? But I guess your point is real. I don't stop being avoidant.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 15:04:38 GMT
@mary, i can't say what is best for you and him. our support people only know what we tell them, and ultimately it's going to come down to our own clarity which we have to get in touch with internally. he can't tell you. he can't illuminate for you, if he is in need of illumination within himself. so i get that communication is helpful between people lol, it's not that i am invalidating that. but if you know for a fact that you haven't made yourself honest and real, stop looking for answers from him. that's all you need to know right now to start working on yourself. if you know that you have a blind spot when it comes to looking after yourself with boundaries and expressing emotions, stop right there and dig into that without further ado. he will show up however he shows up for you. what's important is how you show up for you. the next steps you take with him depend entirely on the next steps you take with yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 15:09:16 GMT
when i started speaking up about what i need to be healthy and safe my partner started providing it. it was a lot of up and down to build trust and know that i was seeing clearly. but it was a full time job to hold myself accountable to honesty and being real, he pulled in beside me at some point. we didn't go around he houses about each other- we've both just been trying individual and that panned out. i know it takes cooperation but with insecure types the effort of the other partner is WAYYYYYY over-analyzed to the neglect of personal accountability to secure relating. we all initially look to a partner to do what we ought to be doing for ourselves and it's immature. and self defeating.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 15:25:30 GMT
when i started speaking up about what i need to be healthy and safe my partner started providing it. it was a lot of up and down to build trust and know that i was seeing clearly. but it was a full time job to hold myself accountable to honesty and being real, he pulled in beside me at some point. we didn't go around he houses about each other- we've both just been trying individual and that panned out. i know it takes cooperation but with insecure types the effort of the other partner is WAYYYYYY over-analyzed to the neglect of personal accountability to secure relating. we all initially look to a partner to do what we ought to be doing for ourselves and it's immature. and self defeating. You definitely have a point, I wouldn't say I over analyzed it. I asked him throughout the relationship what I could be doing better to help not trigger him. I think it was a fair question, but did not realize at that time how unaware he was. I am unaware as well, but know I am. I do have to dig deeper. Don't you think though we have to be able to rely on our partners for some things?
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Post by andy on Sept 19, 2018 15:57:29 GMT
when i started speaking up about what i need to be healthy and safe my partner started providing it. it was a lot of up and down to build trust and know that i was seeing clearly. but it was a full time job to hold myself accountable to honesty and being real, he pulled in beside me at some point. we didn't go around he houses about each other- we've both just been trying individual and that panned out. i know it takes cooperation but with insecure types the effort of the other partner is WAYYYYYY over-analyzed to the neglect of personal accountability to secure relating. we all initially look to a partner to do what we ought to be doing for ourselves and it's immature. and self defeating. You definitely have a point, I wouldn't say I over analyzed it. I asked him throughout the relationship what I could be doing better to help not trigger him. I think it was a fair question, but did not realize at that time how unaware he was. I am unaware as well, but know I am. I do have to dig deeper. Don't you think though we have to be able to rely on our partners for some things? Yes, I think we can fail to assume responsibility for what's ours AND also fail to recognize that our expectations of our partners are valid and that they have some responsibilities too. An immature thing I did was expect my partner to know my needs around things that I regarded as obvious (taking turns making plans, texting back within a day or two, not making scheduling errors and cancelling). I felt so frustrated, but I was really the one who sold myself short by not speaking up for myself early in the game. That responsibility was mine. It is kind of paradoxical that one reason I did not speak up was that I thought it was all on me to manage my feelings and stop feeling so deeply hurt. I wanted to control it all by myself and not ask her for anything. That's an area where I was assuming too much responsibility and not acknowledging that it was okay and natural that my feelings were being impacted by her behaviour and that I should expect a partner to assume some responsibility towards me. I know that these two thoughts I had don't really make sense together but that is the nature of attachment injury brain. It is such a balancing act figuring out where each person's responsibility should start and end, and I'm sure that looks quite different depending on attachment style and context. Focus on self-responsibility is excellent as long as it doesn't go so far as to assume that we should not be emotionally affected by others' behaviour or need them for anything or hold them to account. I know you weren't suggesting this at all, juniper. It sounds more like you're suggesting that we're responsible for communicating openly with them about what we do need from them rather than expecting them to mind-read and being critical of them when they don't. Totally agree on that.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 16:28:30 GMT
yes, i agree absolutely andy. for an avoidant, the personal work means identifying our feelings and needs (the restorative, corrective needs, not the "enabling an avoidant dynamic" needs, and communicating them. it does all come down to not expecting mind reading, also. when we were children, it was natural (to expect, even if it didn't happen) for our parents to anticipate and take care of our needs. to expect that into adulthood is dysfunctional. i get that we were conditioned in twisted ways but once we get an insight into that, we need to step up and move into more secure and adult relating , as we can. that's a blanket statement and simplified to the bare basics. i get that. but it does come down to kind of re-parenting ourselves and not waiting for a partner to do that. i think it looks a bit different , the learning curve, for avoidant vs anxious. but self care is at the root of healing both of those styles , because appropriate self care enables us to appropriately take care of another . if that is out of balance, insanity ensues. the goal is healthy interdependence, of course. that says a lot of you look deeply into it, to understand what that means.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 16:48:10 GMT
I guess part of my journey and even having some ability to get into a relationship was tied to "expecting" or "relying on the idea that my partner would not do certain things. I came to the expectation that my partner would not publicly humiliate me, that they would be honest and not denigrate me. I thought this was a necessary step for me to be more trusting and bring down the walls. I totally agree, a partner should not have to be a mind reader, but am stuck on the notion that some behaviors are a "given" . andy, I think it is a balance that I have more thinking to do about. I don't think my expectations are too high, but I also have to look within myself further. My guess is that I choose men that I know subconsciously will not meet these expectations, so further down my rabbit hole I can go.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 16:58:22 GMT
when i started speaking up about what i need to be healthy and safe my partner started providing it. it was a lot of up and down to build trust and know that i was seeing clearly. but it was a full time job to hold myself accountable to honesty and being real, he pulled in beside me at some point. we didn't go around he houses about each other- we've both just been trying individual and that panned out. i know it takes cooperation but with insecure types the effort of the other partner is WAYYYYYY over-analyzed to the neglect of personal accountability to secure relating. we all initially look to a partner to do what we ought to be doing for ourselves and it's immature. and self defeating. You definitely have a point, I wouldn't say I over analyzed it. I asked him throughout the relationship what I could be doing better to help not trigger him. I think it was a fair question, but did not realize at that time how unaware he was. I am unaware as well, but know I am. I do have to dig deeper. Don't you think though we have to be able to rely on our partners for some things? of course we do. that's been the most beautiful part of my journey as an avoidant , to get to the point of interdependence. that's been all over my posts actually, me learning to ask for the support i need. but that was only possible after i identified my own lacking and picked up the slack for myself emotionally. how would i evolve to asking for support unless i discovered i needed it, and embraced that need, and expressed it? that's the big obstacle for an avoidant. for an anxious, it will be somewhat opposite. the goal is healthy interdependence and that goal remains as the true intention of all our internal work. we should be able to just keep that as an assumption that underlies all of these conversations. it brings a lot of clarity to just know that our goal is to move to healthy interdependence. avoidant or anxious, we have our internal work cut out for us to do the work on our end. if we aren't allowing healthy interdependence in ourselves we have to look at that first before over- analyzing. what a partner is or isn't doing. so many times here we see posts about how a partner let someone down and there is a lot of talk about it before the "aha moment" of realizing- "man i handled that poorly!! i guess i need to grow!"
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 17:48:48 GMT
here's a small xample of the emotional interdependence i now have with my partner.
recently, he was stressed and pressed for time due to external demands, and he misinderstood my communication and became abrupt with me. he was a little rude. (his bad) it hurt my feelings. (understandable) i stewed a little, then started to become angry. (my own insecurity was getting the best of me at this point) i began to go into deactivation. (ugh) i texted him to tell him i was angry. (inappropriate to text about this when he is under a lot of duress already. but i was mad, so i did it anyway. i was escalating a deactivation) then i started to withdraw. he called me immediately once he saw what was happening (growth!! he pulled in to repair- one of us has been able to do that, because we are getting better) defenses came down. in the earlier days, we would have avoided each other or just escalated to an argument. both of us justifying ourselves and being intolerant.
as soon as we began actually talking, things turned around.
he said "i feel demeaned when you pull away because you become an asshole to me and it hurts my feelings" (i'm totally good wih that characterization because we accept that at one point or another each of us have been assholes. lol. it's ok)
i said "i apologize for that and i recognize the disrespect i have shown you. Please forgive me, i know that i have hurt your feelings and i am truly sorry. i reacted angrily to your impatience , but underneath my anger , my feelings are really hurt because usually we are sweet together and i care about you a lot, and i know you care about me. i feel that disrespect and impatience doesn't have a place in our interactions and i want to resolve the misunderstanding that contributed to it."
We de-escalated from there and cleared up what was a true misunderstanding, instead of trying to determine where the "blame" went and who fucked up first and caused it all. we gave tolerance for each other's point of view and fallibility.
we took joint responsibility for our interaction and relationship. for two dismissives to be showing up to conflict saying how they feel , and trying to repair and come to a deeper undetsranding -well, that's huge growth for us both. we shared our vulnerability and real desire to reconcile that little bump. that's the tone of our relationship. taking responsibility for ourselves and for the other. it's really reassuring to handle small bumps like that. we got even CLOSER that day, and it's because there was a problem that we both pulled in to solve together by admitting fault, and looking for how to fix it. then we made it a point to spend some time together even though he was busy- he made time and asked for my presence and i made myself available. it was another solid brick in our good foundation. instead of a brick in the wall!
that's what emotional availability looks like to me. it doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be mutual and cooperative and meet the needs of both partners.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 20:12:34 GMT
I guess part of my journey and even having some ability to get into a relationship was tied to "expecting" or "relying on the idea that my partner would not do certain things. I came to the expectation that my partner would not publicly humiliate me, that they would be honest and not denigrate me. I thought this was a necessary step for me to be more trusting and bring down the walls. I totally agree, a partner should not have to be a mind reader, but am stuck on the notion that some behaviors are a "given" . andy , I think it is a balance that I have more thinking to do about. I don't think my expectations are too high, but I also have to look within myself further. My guess is that I choose men that I know subconsciously will not meet these expectations, so further down my rabbit hole I can go. @mary i fully agree that some lines of behavior are a "given" - and my posts are considering only the little i know and your statements that he is a good person who is typically nice and supportive. i don't know the extent of harmful behavior and of course would not encourage you to endure a pattern of abuse. i am not clear on what all has happened, so i have to underscore that. as to the question "should i have to ask someone not to be an asshole?" no- but if you aren't addressing it and continuing to stay available to it, there's the problem, that internal conflictedness. so, i know you are in the place of being unsure as to how to take the best care of you. i don't know the backstory or extent of the dynamic and certainly don't want to lead you astray!
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Post by happyidiot on Sept 19, 2018 20:15:51 GMT
Yes, I think we can fail to assume responsibility for what's ours AND also fail to recognize that our expectations of our partners are valid and that they have some responsibilities too. An immature thing I did was expect my partner to know my needs around things that I regarded as obvious (taking turns making plans, texting back within a day or two, not making scheduling errors and cancelling). I felt so frustrated, but I was really the one who sold myself short by not speaking up for myself early in the game. That responsibility was mine. It is kind of paradoxical that one reason I did not speak up was that I thought it was all on me to manage my feelings and stop feeling so deeply hurt. I wanted to control it all by myself and not ask her for anything. That's an area where I was assuming too much responsibility and not acknowledging that it was okay and natural that my feelings were being impacted by her behaviour and that I should expect a partner to assume some responsibility towards me. I know that these two thoughts I had don't really make sense together but that is the nature of attachment injury brain. It is such a balancing act figuring out where each person's responsibility should start and end, and I'm sure that looks quite different depending on attachment style and context. Focus on self-responsibility is excellent as long as it doesn't go so far as to assume that we should not be emotionally affected by others' behaviour or need them for anything or hold them to account. I know you weren't suggesting this at all, juniper . It sounds more like you're suggesting that we're responsible for communicating openly with them about what we do need from them rather than expecting them to mind-read and being critical of them when they don't. Totally agree on that. I relate to this so much. I have trouble figuring out what my needs are and articulating them. Like, if I feel better if someone texts me back in a certain amount of time, or alternates initiating plans, how do I even go about explaining that in a constructive way early on? People can't know what you want if you don't tell them, but how exactly do you tell them? I don't even know how to bring up these kinds of topics until it gets to the point where someone takes 3 days to reply to a text and I feel like, "Ok now I have to say something," and they are shocked that I would expect anything from them since I always seemed so chill and they say they don't want to feel obligated to respond to texts, in fact now they want to break up, or some other response that confirms my fears of abandonment. Part of the problem is that I honestly do not know what I want/need in terms of something like text response time, I just know what I don't want when it happens. It varies so much depending on context.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 20:26:05 GMT
happyidiot , even as an avoidant i relate to that dilemma. as i became more invested, i needed more reciprocity and consistency. (in order to not deactivate and become unhappy) i told my partner (wouldn't call him a partner at that point tho lol) that in order to be happiest with our involvement i needed responsiveness when he could do that for me. I understand being unable to respond because of other things going on, but needed him to know that reciprocity is important to me, in order for me to feel secure enough to continue our involvement. the problem for me as dismissive avoidant is that if i don't feel secure in the mutual interest and reciprocated i go away and shut the door. i need consistency too! avoidants are also hurt by rejection. we are also insecure in relationship.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 20:51:06 GMT
I guess part of my journey and even having some ability to get into a relationship was tied to "expecting" or "relying on the idea that my partner would not do certain things. I came to the expectation that my partner would not publicly humiliate me, that they would be honest and not denigrate me. I thought this was a necessary step for me to be more trusting and bring down the walls. I totally agree, a partner should not have to be a mind reader, but am stuck on the notion that some behaviors are a "given" . andy , I think it is a balance that I have more thinking to do about. I don't think my expectations are too high, but I also have to look within myself further. My guess is that I choose men that I know subconsciously will not meet these expectations, so further down my rabbit hole I can go. @mary i fully agree that some lines of behavior are a "given" - and my posts are considering only the little i know and your statements that he is a good person who is typically nice and supportive. i don't know the extent of harmful behavior and of course would not encourage you to endure a pattern of abuse. i am not clear on what all has happened, so i have to underscore that. as to the question "should i have to ask someone not to be an asshole?" no- but if you aren't addressing it and continuing to stay available to it, there's the problem, that internal conflictedness. so, i know you are in the place of being unsure as to how to take the best care of you. i don't know the backstory or extent of the dynamic and certainly don't want to lead you astray! Oh I know you don't know everything but it's helpful to talk it out on this forum even so. What you say makes so much sense. I definitely have an internal conflict. It's a complicated puzzle and I am just at the tip of the iceberg. I feel great that I am recognizing at least what the questions are, but putting it all together and practicing it, well all a different story. I guess my conflictedness is on how best to address it and what is best for me. There are pieces of the relationship that are valuable and pieces that are horrible. I know this is for me and only me to figure out. Thanks so much for your responses. Definitely helps me to see all the sides. And to all, so sorry, I may have derailed this thread a bit.
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