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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2018 22:42:29 GMT
also, i have confounded the experts who have evaluated me, for the way that i have more than survived, i have found a way to thrive with no addictions, no personality disorder myself ( evaluated in custody proceedings with MMPI 2) , and the best i can explain is that the severity of my situation elicited a deep wish to survive and be free , and that aspiration took root in me when i was old enough and able to do something about it. i see that my line is full of pain but must have been full of strength and hope also, or else where would i have gotten it? even just a small seed was nourished by something bigger than me. having received lots of input over the years, i will strongly state that the only helpful advice i ever received was the urging to look inward. it has been an incredibly long and excruciating journey that spans decades. and, looking back, i now look forward with one bit of advice to anyone who has an ear. Look inside, know yourself to free yourself. know your own pain, your own wounds, your weaknesses and your strengths. know your feelings , and know your thoughts, know your actions. make a diligent effort to be an expert on yourself. this has been a long Dismnisive Avoidant hell i have walked through, i still deactivate but have much love, much connection, much presence, much love for myself, much love for others, much peace, at times much pain, but much hope and much healing and much evidence for all of it. i need not convince anyone now because i am convinced that healing is real and possible and it is an inward journey. making distractions by focusing outward is a delay in healing. delays are fine. but i will never point anyone who suffers to the long route, the pain has gone on long enough has it not? for everyone who comes here, i believe the answer is yes, the pain has gone on long enough. and so, i whisper.... Look Inward. only those wanting to hear it will. Bravo Juniper! May all beings have happiness and be free from pain and suffering - and that includes us.... Yes, that includes us. and wouldn't it be an exciting new wave of consciousness to really believe that we can heal ourselves? that it is in fact our duty and moral obligation to ourselves and others to do so? not only is healing oneself possible, it is a well supported and reasonable endeavor, for those who sincerely choose it. |
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Post by jim3164 on Jun 4, 2018 17:51:46 GMT
My question is why would a secure person want to reengage a relationship with a Dismissive Avoidant personality, who has already demonstrated to be high on the continum (since we're not licensed clinicians)? You can't change them no matter how you try in round 2. In truth, they are similar in specific ways to those with narcissist personality disorder. In the beginning of the relationship, they idealize you, which is followed by devaluing you and finally discarding you on the turn of a dime, without any remose or empathy for you. Both personality disorders have the same number #1 fear, intimacy. However, unlike Narcs, who may hoover you back in when they are they are void of their addiction, narcissist supply (NS), Dismissive Avoidants cut you out permanently. Though NPD's are different in many other ways, both disorders are equally damaging to interpersonal relationships. My point is this. I only bring this comparison up becuase I don't think anyone would knowingly enter into what they wanted to be an intimate relationship with a known NPD. The healthy position should hold true for the Dismissive Avoidant, where unlike the Narc, you will see many obvious red flags in the beginning. I don't think DAs are the same as those with NPD, you are generalizing and conflating the two.
Certainly, my exDA is extremely respectful and didn't behave like an NPD, didn't idealize, discard, etc. He showed typical DA behavior, cold feet when we got too close, happy and relaxed again after a period of "space", and if he weren't at the extreme end of the spectrum, we would still be together, as I'm slightly more on the DA spectrum myself, being an INTP. 
There are many DAs on this board who think and behave completely differently from a pwNPD or any other Cluster Bs. Many of them are rather adorable, reflective and respectful of others and their boundaries. Of course they are the aware DAs, we are on a forum and strangers to each other and so that could mitigate their DA traits.
I also wouldn't assume that the partner who leaves is always a "DA" in a breakup, unless all the behaviors of a DA are checked. Sometimes, it is also AP, FA or even more extreme DA or dysfunctional Cluster B behavior that scares a relatively healthy partner off. I have certainly broken up with unhealthy partners who then accused me of being a DA, but in fact it was because of their dysfunctional behavior that made me run away, and not because my DA side got triggered.
In other words, DAs, unless co-morbid with some other severe dysfunctional traits, are not the same as those with dysfunctional personalities. With a Secure, an aware DA could become more Secure over time.
I will agree though, to try to gain "inside knowledge", to learn tricks, ways and means to get your ex to miss you, to love you again, etc. is unhealthy. It is much better to be honest, let the ex know you want to get back together with him or her, and then leave it to them to decide if they want to rekindle the relationship.
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Post by jim3164 on Jun 4, 2018 18:52:51 GMT
I wasn't intending to conflate a DA, and not referring to full blown Cluster C, Avoidant Persoanality Disorder, with NPD traits, I was posing a logical, retorical question. Why would anyone want to go round #2 with a DA anymore than one would want to go round #2 with an NPD unless they were deceiving themselves about what they experienced in the first go-a-round? The other point was that NPD's will hoover when lacking narcissist suppply (NS), unable to keep their inflated false sense of self bostered and thus experiencing the lacking negative effects, i.e., disphoria, anxiety. If you were to decide to enter a second round with NPD partner, they will once again discard you and the relationship once they secure your replacement, with their new secondary source if NS.
Now, everything I read about DA's is that they seldom if ever try to initiate a return to their most recent relationship when they were the one who bolted. Am I incorrect in this finding from my readings? I'm certainly not qualified otherwise. Do DA's reflect on their most recent relationship after having turned on-the-dime, from loving feelings and intent to have the relationship blossom, to suddenly dismissing a relationship that seemed to have such hope and promise? And should such a reconciliation occur, what are the chances of any success with the secure attachment style partner they dismissed?
I'm here to learn from others.
Thank you
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2018 3:44:49 GMT
you're asking the internet what the chances of a reunion between a bolting DA and a "secure" dumper/reconciler are?
there is no answer for that.
and yes some DA's do return if they recover from deactivation and want to try again.
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Post by tnr9 on Jun 5, 2018 11:17:29 GMT
I wasn't intending to conflate a DA, and not referring to full blown Cluster C, Avoidant Persoanality Disorder, with NPD traits, I was posing a logical, retorical question. Why would anyone want to go round #2 with a DA anymore than one would want to go round #2 with an NPD unless they were deceiving themselves about what they experienced in the first go-a-round? The other point was that NPD's will hoover when lacking narcissist suppply (NS), unable to keep their inflated false sense of self bostered and thus experiencing the lacking negative effects, i.e., disphoria, anxiety. If you were to decide to enter a second round with NPD partner, they will once again discard you and the relationship once they secure your replacement, with their new secondary source if NS. Now, everything I read about DA's is that they seldom if ever try to initiate a return to their most recent relationship when they were the one who bolted. Am I incorrect in this finding from my readings? I'm certainly not qualified otherwise. Do DA's reflect on their most recent relationship after having turned on-the-dime, from loving feelings and intent to have the relationship blossom, to suddenly dismissing a relationship that seemed to have such hope and promise? And should such a reconciliation occur, what are the chances of any success with the secure attachment style partner they dismissed? I'm here to learn from others. Thank you I find the phrasing rather interesting...it is as if you view the change as wholly within the person with a DA attachment and not at all a response to being triggered by a partner who crosses boundaries or disrespects autonomy/separateness or does not balance the relationship with other areas of his/her life. Part of understanding the DA dynamic is understanding that the dynamic does not exist in a vacuum...it takes two to tango. |
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Post by jim3164 on Jun 5, 2018 13:54:22 GMT
Excuse me, but if one of the persons in the relationship is secure in attachment, then I beg to differ. Read Kinnison's Avoidant. How to Love (or Leave) a DA partner. DA's.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2018 14:02:29 GMT
Excuse me, but if one of the persons in the relationship is secure in attachment, then I beg to differ. Read Kinnison's Avoidant. How to Love (or Leave) a DA partner. DA's. securely attached people participate also apparently, if they aren't dancing then it's done. this is common sense. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2018 14:16:49 GMT
I wasn't intending to conflate a DA, and not referring to full blown Cluster C, Avoidant Persoanality Disorder, with NPD traits, I was posing a logical, retorical question. Why would anyone want to go round #2 with a DA anymore than one would want to go round #2 with an NPD unless they were deceiving themselves about what they experienced in the first go-a-round? The other point was that NPD's will hoover when lacking narcissist suppply (NS), unable to keep their inflated false sense of self bostered and thus experiencing the lacking negative effects, i.e., disphoria, anxiety. If you were to decide to enter a second round with NPD partner, they will once again discard you and the relationship once they secure your replacement, with their new secondary source if NS. Now, everything I read about DA's is that they seldom if ever try to initiate a return to their most recent relationship when they were the one who bolted. Am I incorrect in this finding from my readings? I'm certainly not qualified otherwise. Do DA's reflect on their most recent relationship after having turned on-the-dime, from loving feelings and intent to have the relationship blossom, to suddenly dismissing a relationship that seemed to have such hope and promise? And should such a reconciliation occur, what are the chances of any success with the secure attachment style partner they dismissed? I'm here to learn from others. Thank you Hello Jim3164,
I agree with you that finding a Secure would be the best case scenario for all of us.
In my previous relationship with my exDA, indeed I was the one who broke it up 2-3 times as I cannot accept the huge distancing he needed and he couldn't meet me even half the way (to see each other once a week minimum).
Hmm..in that sense I might be the DA who broke up! 
However, DAs and pwNPDs are like day and night - I would be happy to stay and support my exDA if he could bring himself to work on his issues.
As a very mild DA, I would certainly give my best to a great partner. So it isn't true that DAs are as bad as pwNPD.
My attachment to exDA is due to the fact that there are many similarities between us, and I have a difficult time finding those qualities in the men I dated before and after exDA. Lots of issues, distance, physique, interests, intellectual curiosity, etc. I am reaching the point where I'm considering dating younger men, just to expand my dating horizons.
The pool for attractive eligible middle-aged men isn't great, and I guess exDA is a great match at all these levels apart from his severe DA traits.
I absolutely do not think it is healthy to try to "get" the DA ex back through manipulation, but I don't think the door should be firmly shut to ex DA partners.
However, I don't think anyone should be with Cluster B types as they are toxic. I don't cut them off completely but I certainly keep a very safe distance, as without therapy, they bring a very unhealthy dynamic into the relationship.
Individuals differ in dysfunctional traits, it is all about each partner doing his or her best to be there for the other, to become Secure, whether AP, FA or DA.
Hope that answers partially your question. |
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Post by jim3164 on Jun 6, 2018 19:20:41 GMT
Hi Curious. Nice input. Thank you. I never suggestng that DA's and NPD's underlying pathologies are the same. And DA's are not necessarilly clinically disognosed with Avoidant Personality Disorder. It's along a continum. DA's are very different than NPD's, however, many of their key behaviors are very similar, playing out within their interpersanl relationships. Pls visit Dr. Sam Vaknin YouTube, video www.youtube.com/watch?v=uall0OQxU74&t=268s or search Sam Vaknin, "Shyness or Narcissism? Avoidant personaility disorder. He is perhpas one of the world's most leading experts on NPD. He is himself diaonosed with NPD, a cerebral Narc. The other being a somantic Narc. Best selling author. He explains much better than I could relate herein. But havng dating a number of NPD's and now my first DA relationship failure, I can tell from experience that what he states is exactly what I experienced. The other source is Jeb Kinnison in his book, Avoidant, How to Love or Leave, pg 62. Here is where they are like ham and eggs. Their #1 fear is "intimacy". When it gets close, they have deactivation strategies in place. Here the NPD takes the trophy, becuase they already have your replacement secured. Additionally, they both lack feeling empathy, although the DA represses the feeling, the Narc doesn't even have the capabiity whatsoever to feel empathy. Not only in their false grandiouse sense of self but also in their true damaged self. Finally, in my experience, the relationships follow these same phases as it relates to their romantic partner. 1) idealization, 2) devaluing and 3) discard with little remorse. In the Narc's case, "0" remorse and yes, to your point. toxic, as in sadistic discards. Thy actually take pleasure in the discard. It empowers them with narcissist supply, their addiction and drug of choice. Just some thoughts |
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Post by squirrelkitty on Jun 6, 2018 22:05:35 GMT
What would you get out of somebody missing you? Missing someone when there is little chance of seeing them again is a useless feeling as it doesn't bring the person back. More to the point, what would you get out of 'making' him miss you? If you were able to control his feelings to such an extent (which you ultimately aren't anyway; nobody is), wouldn't he be an object rather than a person with their own free will? How would you have a relationship with an object?
I'm Anxious Preoccupied and I'd never dream of even trying something extreme like that because it doesn't even make any sense.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2018 22:26:14 GMT
Hi Curious. Nice input. Thank you. I never suggestng that DA's and NPD's underlying pathologies are the same. And DA's are not necessarilly clinically disognosed with Avoidant Personality Disorder. It's along a continum. DA's are very different than NPD's, however, many of their key behaviors are very similar, playing out within their interpersanl relationships. Pls visit Dr. Sam Vaknin YouTube, video www.youtube.com/watch?v=uall0OQxU74&t=268s or search Sam Vaknin, "Shyness or Narcissism? Avoidant personaility disorder. He is perhpas one of the world's most leading experts on NPD. He is himself diaonosed with NPD, a cerebral Narc. The other being a somantic Narc. Best selling author. He explains much better than I could relate herein. But havng dating a number of NPD's and now my first DA relationship failure, I can tell from experience that what he states is exactly what I experienced. The other source is Jeb Kinnison in his book, Avoidant, How to Love or Leave, pg 62. Here is where they are like ham and eggs. Their #1 fear is "intimacy". When it gets close, they have deactivation strategies in place. Here the NPD takes the trophy, becuase they already have your replacement secured. Additionally, they both lack feeling empathy, although the DA represses the feeling, the Narc doesn't even have the capabiity whatsoever to feel empathy. Not only in their false grandiouse sense of self but also in their true damaged self. Finally, in my experience, the relationships follow these same phases as it relates to their romantic partner. 1) idealization, 2) devaluing and 3) discard with little remorse. In the Narc's case, "0" remorse and yes, to your point. toxic, as in sadistic discards. Thy actually take pleasure in the discard. It empowers them with narcissist supply, their addiction and drug of choice. Just some thoughts Jim, you're not the first person who's been dumped to come here and try to pathologize DA and conflate the attachment style with personality disorders. it's a tired conversation but crops up occasionally, we all are accustomed to it and it typically goes the same way each time. and you won't be the last 😂 it's all good. you have a really small and graceless focus right now it seems. or maybe you are always this way. you are ignoring lots of work out there that has a better grasp of the underlying dynamics than you do. i'm sure it hurt a lot to get discarded and was quite an emotional blow and it no doubt fuels your negative , judgemebtal. and paranoid perspective of Dismissive Avoidants. maybe just focus on healing, perhaps you were the target and victim of a cruel person with a PD. that can take it out of a person. I wish you the best for your recovery. |
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Post by mrob on Jun 6, 2018 23:03:36 GMT
This book was almost the final straw for me when I first read it. It removed all hope, basically saying I was a waste of time and change was near impossible. I took myself out to a rural area with 3 propane bottles in my car and was ready to finish myself off. So, the book doesn’t offer an avoidant too much hope at all.
I’m here because I want to change. Defending my corner doesn’t work anymore. I’m in therapy for the same reason. There has to be some hope of change somewhere but this stuff runs deep. It’s in the background before the conscious decisions are made. It’s change, or die. That’s how stark it is for me.
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Post by jim3164 on Jun 6, 2018 23:20:20 GMT
Hi Curious. Nice input. Thank you. I never suggestng that DA's and NPD's underlying pathologies are the same. And DA's are not necessarilly clinically disognosed with Avoidant Personality Disorder. It's along a continum. DA's are very different than NPD's, however, many of their key behaviors are very similar, playing out within their interpersanl relationships. Pls visit Dr. Sam Vaknin YouTube, video www.youtube.com/watch?v=uall0OQxU74&t=268s or search Sam Vaknin, "Shyness or Narcissism? Avoidant personaility disorder. He is perhpas one of the world's most leading experts on NPD. He is himself diaonosed with NPD, a cerebral Narc. The other being a somantic Narc. Best selling author. He explains much better than I could relate herein. But havng dating a number of NPD's and now my first DA relationship failure, I can tell from experience that what he states is exactly what I experienced. The other source is Jeb Kinnison in his book, Avoidant, How to Love or Leave, pg 62. Here is where they are like ham and eggs. Their #1 fear is "intimacy". When it gets close, they have deactivation strategies in place. Here the NPD takes the trophy, becuase they already have your replacement secured. Additionally, they both lack feeling empathy, although the DA represses the feeling, the Narc doesn't even have the capabiity whatsoever to feel empathy. Not only in their false grandiouse sense of self but also in their true damaged self. Finally, in my experience, the relationships follow these same phases as it relates to their romantic partner. 1) idealization, 2) devaluing and 3) discard with little remorse. In the Narc's case, "0" remorse and yes, to your point. toxic, as in sadistic discards. Thy actually take pleasure in the discard. It empowers them with narcissist supply, their addiction and drug of choice. Just some thoughts Jim, you're not the first person who's been dumped to come here and try to pathologize DA and conflate the attachment style with personality disorders. it's a tired conversation but crops up occasionally, we all are accustomed to it and it typically goes the same way each time. and you won't be the last 😂 it's all good. you have a really small and graceless focus right now it seems. or maybe you are always this way. you are ignoring lots of work out there that has a better grasp of the underlying dynamics than you do. i'm sure it hurt a lot to get discarded and was quite an emotional blow and it no doubt fuels your negative , judgemebtal. and paranoid perspective of Dismissive Avoidants. maybe just focus on healing, perhaps you were the target and victim of a cruel person with a PD. that can take it out of a person. I wish you the best for your recovery. |
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Post by jim3164 on Jun 6, 2018 23:23:25 GMT
Excuse me, but your comment is nothing but "white noise". Where is your argument? I cited Sam Vaknin and Jeb himself. If you disagree with my subjective comment and position & you're evidently not a Phd, then be specific to my argument and my Phd sources in your layperson rebuttle. By the way, one doesn't have to be a Phd to recognise lame, passive agressive atttudes - June 7th. That's what I thought. A troll with nothing intelligent to say
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2018 1:31:18 GMT
Excuse me, but your comment is nothing but "white noise". Where is your argument? I cited Sam Vaknin and Jeb himself. If you disagree with my subjective comment and position & you're evidently not a Phd, then be specific to my argument and my Phd sources in your layperson rebuttle. By the way, one doesn't have to be a Phd to recognise lame, passive agressive atttudes Oh Jim 🙄 let's just block each other. 😂 done! |
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