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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2019 2:00:27 GMT
There are times that I would say, I have felt alien in the world. Not longing to for a place, just seeing that I don't have one. And being ok to march to my own drum and follow my own flow. I don't know if I have felt conflict. Just a sense of being removed, and going my own way; as a fated condition rather than a choice. Like eye color maybe. Or the color of skin. That's just what you've got to work with. There is no way to really know what you've never known, in terms of feeling a deep sense of connection to others. Like, someone can describe what pineapple tastes like but you can't taste it. That's how I have felt about needing another person. You could describe that to me; but I couldn't "taste" it, didn't crave it. For me, DA attachment has been like that, for most of my life. People talk of what it's like to have this or that kind of love and connection and whatever, but for most of my life I thought it was made up. I have felt that connection though, in recent years. I have developed intimate relationships, friends and otherwise. They are rich but there is lots of space around me, even in those relationships. Any partner I have had in awareness, I have been able to share openly about all that and just compromise on what I need and what they need. I don't have it perfected, obviously, I just broke up. But I keep growing on my own path and reflecting on what's most important to me. I don't feel lonely, myself. I feel like I could easily live contentedly with just kind acquaintances and perhaps a fellowship of close friends, who understand me and are available but are the same way, liking to be alone. I like to be in a relationship in some ways, but in the end, they all end one way or another and I can never put all my eggs in that basket. I'll always have me and my interests and inner life and that is what sustains me most. I don't know if there is anything wrong with that at all, it's just the way I am. I know people like me, we are out there and living lives we love. I have come a long way but in the end, I'm not certain that the only way to be a full human is to have close relationships. I think that it's possible to have deep and meaningful, healing exchanges with people you don't even know that well, just fellow humans. Sharing the human experience, relating with understanding, and moving on. Who knows. I probably sound crazy to anyone other than a DA. Who knows. It's hard to explain. Mickey - this does not sound crazy at all!  And I’m an AP who longs for closeness. That way you expressed this makes sense and gives me a much greater understanding of how an avoidant would feel that way. It seems like a confident, freeing and self-assured way to live....and as long as you’re not craving the closeness, then you’re not missing it. As you said, if you never tasted pineapple, then you don’t know the taste or miss it. It sounds freeing to not be reliant on someone or in search of something you may never find. It sounds content. That may be part of my ex’s sadness- the taste of pineapple. He repeatedly stated in our relationship that he never opened himself up to anyone before and never felt connection like ours before, was afraid to even hope for it (I couldn’t relate to any of this!) and then when he lost it, he seemed utterly defeated....yet, afraid to trust now. So afraid Also, I do believe that satisfying relationships and connections can certainly come in a variety of ways and various people. I’d say they have to or it would be a depressing thought that without “true love” we are lacking, that we aren’t complete without another, that we are in some way not enough on our own. Even with a partner, nothing lasts forever, either by choice or death...we end up alone again. This word alone is actually a foreign thought to me, but as I’ve been without a boyfriend or husband for this past year- first time since I was 13 years old, I’m learning to stand on my own and feel a level of peace and contentment about it. A level, anyway. That is quite a change from the person who got married at 19 and then went on later to have 4 children. I wanted a houseful of kids- I realize now that was likely my AP tendency fending off being alone. Really loving this informative thread! Thx for sharing... Thank you faithopelove. It sounds like the man you are involved with is just hurt without any healing in place. So his alone is lonely, his alone is isolated, hoanalone is desolate, at least to some degree. It's nice to see how my alone has evolved. I feel surrounded by friendly elements of the world, when I am alone, for the most part. Like nature, kind people even if I don't know them, good structure and systems that take care of my physical basic needs like my home, food, heat, etc. The sun, the rain, the earth, all of that supports me and I don't feel alone or abandoned. I guess before I came to see how supported I am by the world I felt more desolate. So he must feel the desolation of being unsupported generally, maybe. Alone away from people does not mean alone totally, in my mind. It's a big difference! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2019 2:04:27 GMT
@mickey, no, I mean an opening to break up. And yes, stress makes it harder for people to control their emotions-- especially insecures who are bad at regulating them in the first place. So, hungry, tired, etc., could lower inhibitions (depending on the person, of course), and make them more prone to bidding for attention or getting triggered. If he really felt secure in the idea that you wouldn't break up with him, and he learned this pattern of threatening to "leave" by being "unsure" with no actual follow through on the threat, I suppose an AP could do that. Yes, I think this is it. He had no intention of dissolving the relationship, I'm sure. It just was hurtful but I don't think he even intended that or was aware of it until I told him. I did let him know that it hurt me to hear him talk like that. |
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Post by alexandra on Jan 23, 2019 2:05:04 GMT
I've considered that but the FA patterns and description seem so far off base with him. And I would say that I'm more secure than he, but not more avoidant. I was very physically and emotionally present, but problems set in later as communication issues that he frankly acknowledges now. set in. It's probably a combination of factors tho in him, not just attachment. See, now this is interesting. I don't have enough information about your ex to know either way what his deal is, aside from he's insecurely attached and sounds like he has high anxiety. And it certainly may be other things, too. But you stating that you're not more avoidant than him, if you identify as a securish DA and he's anxious, gives me some pause about reading into his behaviors. AP and FA can act the same if FA is generally just being triggered anxious, but the motivations for the overall behavior patterns are quite different. |
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Post by faithopelove on Jan 23, 2019 2:05:28 GMT
@mickey, it may have been a bid for validation or connection at times he was fearful but unable to communicate his needs. However, I find it really odd that he'd be AP and choose to phrase it in a way that gave you any opening to leave. I'd actually venture a guess that he had a parent or close attachment figure at some point that would threaten him similarly, so he learned a bad behavior. I don't think he was giving me an opening to leave, really. I do think he wanted reassurance. And he would only do it when I was kind of stuck at his house. Do you mean give me an opening to leave, physically, right then and there? Because these things came up when I was in the bathtub and we were talking, or lying in bed... times he knew I wasn't going anywhere. I don't think it was intentionally hurtful, I think he may have just felt threatened or unsure if I would abandon him. Maybe more anxious at night, when we were tired? Does AP anxiety worsen with being tired, like general anxiety can? Seeing how he responded to the breakup, it does make me sad that he was afraid, but behaved in ways that hurt the relationship. He was devastated.  Mickey - Interesting. I have noticed this past year that in the morning I absolutely can see things in a more positive light and nights can be much harder for me- more anxious, alone. A huge part of my AP anxiety is time and space- those were my biggest triggers, so the thought of the sun going down on a day with disconnect or some kind of discord w my partner would stir up panic in me...like nightfall and going to bed were the final curtain and nothing could be made better or reversed after that. I had a primal need to reconnect before the day’s end. Even typing this, I’m feeling some of that panic rise in my heart. I have no idea why nighttime seemed so final to me- now I remind myself the sun will set AND rise and it’s not a big deal to disconnect for 8 hours. Why is the AP so terrified of dinsonnect? Must be a lost sense of sense- no security within? I don’t know... |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2019 2:08:16 GMT
Oh, and faithopelove ... his statement that he was afraid to hope. This was a huge obstacle to me in early awareness when I experienced tenderness and attachment. As soon as I dared to hope and feel like that I felt devastating fear and pain. I read that somewhere too, that DA have a terrible aversion to hope because it opens up unfathomable loss. Probably the hope we had that our parents would some day turn and see us. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2019 2:10:12 GMT
I've considered that but the FA patterns and description seem so far off base with him. And I would say that I'm more secure than he, but not more avoidant. I was very physically and emotionally present, but problems set in later as communication issues that he frankly acknowledges now. set in. It's probably a combination of factors tho in him, not just attachment. See, now this is interesting. I don't have enough information about your ex to know either way what his deal is, aside from he's insecurely attached and sounds like he has high anxiety. And it certainly may be other things, too. But you stating that you're not more avoidant than him, if you identify as a securish DA and he's anxious, gives me some pause about reading into his behaviors. AP and FA can act the same if FA is generally just being triggered anxious, but the motivations for the overall behavior patterns are quite different. My brain feels like it cracks in a thousand pieces when I try to figure him out. I think he has high anxiety about abandonment, tho. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2019 2:15:10 GMT
these days, if i have to figure someone out, it just means there's some shade of unavailability -- this is for myself too! when im acting cryptic, it just means i'm not letting this person into my world much.
i think there's an element of not believing what someone says/does in terms of reassurance. I have noticed that when people give me reassurance, I don't really believe it. I've tried to believe it before, but perhaps I just picked the worst person to test that out. I wanted to believe it but deep down I didn't, and when the relationship ended terribly, I was devastated, not because i believed it, but probably because i had allowed myself to hope for the better against my gut, and of course i was let down. the anxiety stems from the fear of abandonment as well as an inability to trust when that fear is reassured.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2019 2:19:12 GMT
wait- do you mean "you" as in all "DA" or are you talking about your partner. Because I've been empathizing here and I am confused. I feel like you're angry about me expressing a love of peaceful solitude? But that comes from my own authenticity and healing. I create in solitude, I study, I develop my passions and talents. I rest. I heal. Part of healing myself is to accept the reality of things about me, without parhologizing them. Some people are well suited to solitude, and I don't think it should be held against us. I mean, hold it against your partner if he hurt you with it, but I don't hurt people with my solitude. I find balance if I am in relationship. But that quality won't disappear from me. I think I would make a great nun, only I love sex and I'm not religious so darn. lol I meant "you" as in my ex. I was speaking my internal dialogue out loud in the context of my past relationship while being AP triggered. I think that's why APs try so hard, because it feels like "I can see it why can't you???". I appreciate the love for peaceful solitude - I think it's just triggering when it's perceived as an excuse or a tool for distancing, usually so when coupled with other DA behaviors. Then people get confused - are you needing solitude truly to replenish and give back, or is that really just a cover for not wanting to be intimate and close in the rship? i have thought about being a nun tooooooooo. haha and exactly didn't do it because I love sex. Hahahaha yesssss.. I wouldn't mind having my clothes be just big robes and I could cover my hair instead of styling it- super. Just show me the nunnery that allows conjugal visits and I'm there? And yes. independence or solitude can be used as a distancing behavior, I'm sure. It's funny, it's hard for me to know exactly what I did before awareness because I was so out of touch and (I laugh saying this ) Weird. I feel like solitude helped me be a better partner, just like adequate rest, nutrition, any self care habit would. It enabled me to be present and engaged and not depleted. But, an unhealthy DA wouldn't necessarily feel more able to bond and build intimacy with solitude.... because they lack those emotional skills in the first place. |
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Post by alexandra on Jan 23, 2019 2:21:08 GMT
My brain feels like it cracks in a thousand pieces when I try to figure him out. I think he has high anxiety about abandonment, tho. Ha ha, I completely understand. FA has high anxiety about abandonment and about enmeshment. They can get triggered into panicked anxiety or into shutting down. Their backgrounds usually have more chaos, fear, and more pronounced abuse. They end up a little more inconsistent, ambivalent, and all over the place in regards to knowing what they want (at least when stability factors in). AP tends towards codependent and the fear of enmeshment is more unconscious. It's there, because they're the flip side of emotionally unavailable, and they can get bored or feel put off by someone secure or stable because it feels so unfamiliar and isn't supporting their internal narrative of, I ALWAYS want to be closer to others than they want to be to me. Neither type knows how to accept healthy and stable love, at least not off the bat and without some awareness. So they are more comfortable chasing. But all that's important with your ex in relation to you was, he was insecurely attached, he wasn't willing to reflect and work on it, and he didn't respond in a way that was meeting your needs when you tried to communicate about what sounded like very legitimate issues. It really helped me personally break through the secure barrier to understand all the attachment types, but the anxious healing process is different than the avoidant (and FA has to heal on both sides, which is why it's the most difficult to move into secure). But I am highly empathetic (comes with the factors that created my AP) and I really like knowing how everything ever works -- for me, I was getting less anxious and more secure by just working on the AP, but finally untangling all my relationships by understanding the other side of DA, FA, and secure was a game-changer for me personally. A game-changer that took many, many years! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2019 2:46:56 GMT
I don't think he was giving me an opening to leave, really. I do think he wanted reassurance. And he would only do it when I was kind of stuck at his house. Do you mean give me an opening to leave, physically, right then and there? Because these things came up when I was in the bathtub and we were talking, or lying in bed... times he knew I wasn't going anywhere. I don't think it was intentionally hurtful, I think he may have just felt threatened or unsure if I would abandon him. Maybe more anxious at night, when we were tired? Does AP anxiety worsen with being tired, like general anxiety can? Seeing how he responded to the breakup, it does make me sad that he was afraid, but behaved in ways that hurt the relationship. He was devastated. Mickey - Interesting. I have noticed this past year that in the morning I absolutely can see things in a more positive light and nights can be much harder for me- more anxious, alone. A huge part of my AP anxiety is time and space- those were my biggest triggers, so the thought of the sun going down on a day with disconnect or some kind of discord w my partner would stir up panic in me...like nightfall and going to bed were the final curtain and nothing could be made better or reversed after that. I had a primal need to reconnect before the day’s end. Even typing this, I’m feeling some of that panic rise in my heart. I have no idea why nighttime seemed so final to me- now I remind myself the sun will set AND rise and it’s not a big deal to disconnect for 8 hours. Why is the AP so terrified of dinsonnect? Must be a lost sense of sense- no security within? I don’t know... Hey, maybe this is exactly it. He only did this at night. Maybe his anxiety was peaking and he needed reassurance before he went to sleep. And, early in the relationship he said that it was extremely important to never go to bed with tension or an unresolved issue. I think that's good generally; but he was emphatic and it was one of the first needs he expressed. As for me; as a DA, I don't like going to bed with tension either but of course it would cause me to deactivate and going to sleep is a great way to... deactivate. So no such discussion would be initiated by me, I would just drift off alone as we all do when we go to Sleepyville... there are no passengers on the road to Sleepyville, perfect way for an avoidant to shut down lol! In fact he brought up all the concerns at night. He must have had peak anxiety at the end of the day? Ok I feel my brain shattering. Lol! But it's sad , this whole thing is sad. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2019 2:48:17 GMT
My brain feels like it cracks in a thousand pieces when I try to figure him out. I think he has high anxiety about abandonment, tho. Ha ha, I completely understand. FA has high anxiety about abandonment and about enmeshment. They can get triggered into panicked anxiety or into shutting down. Their backgrounds usually have more chaos, fear, and more pronounced abuse. They end up a little more inconsistent, ambivalent, and all over the place in regards to knowing what they want (at least when stability factors in). AP tends towards codependent and the fear of enmeshment is more unconscious. It's there, because they're the flip side of emotionally unavailable, and they can get bored or feel put off by someone secure or stable because it feels so unfamiliar and isn't supporting their internal narrative of, I ALWAYS want to be closer to others than they want to be to me. Neither type knows how to accept healthy and stable love, at least not off the bat and without some awareness. So they are more comfortable chasing. But all that's important with your ex in relation to you was, he was insecurely attached, he wasn't willing to reflect and work on it, and he didn't respond in a way that was meeting your needs when you tried to communicate about what sounded like very legitimate issues. It really helped me personally break through the secure barrier to understand all the attachment types, but the anxious healing process is different than the avoidant (and FA has to heal on both sides, which is why it's the most difficult to move into secure). But I am highly empathetic (comes with the factors that created my AP) and I really like knowing how everything ever works -- for me, I was getting less anxious and more secure by just working on the AP, but finally untangling all my relationships by understanding the other side of DA, FA, and secure was a game-changer for me personally. A game-changer that took many, many years! I agree that understanding the other sides is actually a key thing to do (maybe that's because, like you, I've a high need for cognition and empathetic). Alot of APs are like that, and hence there's alot of asking about DAs here (esp in the initial stages of triggers) - which annoys DAs because they're all about focusing on themselves. which actually strikes me as a bit strange - if you don't understand other perspectives, behaviors, and ways of being, how do you actually grow your own repertoire of skills? If i don't ask my ex DA about how he deals with solitude, how would i know what that actually looks like since i've not done it before? it strikes me as supercilious when one does not take the effort to know the other party's perspective thoroughly and what your role is in that. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2019 2:50:56 GMT
Mickey - Interesting. I have noticed this past year that in the morning I absolutely can see things in a more positive light and nights can be much harder for me- more anxious, alone. A huge part of my AP anxiety is time and space- those were my biggest triggers, so the thought of the sun going down on a day with disconnect or some kind of discord w my partner would stir up panic in me...like nightfall and going to bed were the final curtain and nothing could be made better or reversed after that. I had a primal need to reconnect before the day’s end. Even typing this, I’m feeling some of that panic rise in my heart. I have no idea why nighttime seemed so final to me- now I remind myself the sun will set AND rise and it’s not a big deal to disconnect for 8 hours. Why is the AP so terrified of dinsonnect? Must be a lost sense of sense- no security within? I don’t know... Hey, maybe this is exactly it. He only did this at night. Maybe his anxiety was peaking and he needed reassurance before he went to sleep. And, early in the relationship he said that it was extremely important to never go to bed with tension or an unresolved issue. I think that's good generally; but he was empathic and it was one of the first needs he expressed. As for me; as a DA, I don't like going to bed with tension either but of course it would cause me to deactivate and going to sleep is a great way to... deactivate. So no such discussion would be initiated by me, I would just drift off alone as we all do when we go to Sleepyville... there are no passengers on the road to Sleepyville, perfect way for an avoidant to shut down lol! In fact he brought up all the concerns at night. He must have had peak anxiety at the end of the day? Ok I feel my brain shattering. Lol! But it's sad , this whole thing is sad. mmmmm. is this why I wanted good morning and good night texts? it's a way to remind me that this person exists in my life, particularly if i don't see him. I always have this feeling that if i'm not communicating with this person or keeping in contact, i actually literally forget about that person. it feels also like if i had my own life, i wouldn't really keep the existing relationships because i'd be too busy doing my own thing and having no resources for anyone else. |
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Post by faithopelove on Jan 23, 2019 3:01:35 GMT
Mickey - this does not sound crazy at all! And I’m an AP who longs for closeness. That way you expressed this makes sense and gives me a much greater understanding of how an avoidant would feel that way. It seems like a confident, freeing and self-assured way to live....and as long as you’re not craving the closeness, then you’re not missing it. As you said, if you never tasted pineapple, then you don’t know the taste or miss it. It sounds freeing to not be reliant on someone or in search of something you may never find. It sounds content. That may be part of my ex’s sadness- the taste of pineapple. He repeatedly stated in our relationship that he never opened himself up to anyone before and never felt connection like ours before, was afraid to even hope for it (I couldn’t relate to any of this!) and then when he lost it, he seemed utterly defeated....yet, afraid to trust now. So afraid Also, I do believe that satisfying relationships and connections can certainly come in a variety of ways and various people. I’d say they have to or it would be a depressing thought that without “true love” we are lacking, that we aren’t complete without another, that we are in some way not enough on our own. Even with a partner, nothing lasts forever, either by choice or death...we end up alone again. This word alone is actually a foreign thought to me, but as I’ve been without a boyfriend or husband for this past year- first time since I was 13 years old, I’m learning to stand on my own and feel a level of peace and contentment about it. A level, anyway. That is quite a change from the person who got married at 19 and then went on later to have 4 children. I wanted a houseful of kids- I realize now that was likely my AP tendency fending off being alone. Really loving this informative thread! Thx for sharing... Thank you faithopelove. It sounds like the man you are involved with is just hurt without any healing in place. So his alone is lonely, his alone is isolated, hoanalone is desolate, at least to some degree. It's nice to see how my alone has evolved. I feel surrounded by friendly elements of the world, when I am alone, for the most part. Like nature, kind people even if I don't know them, good structure and systems that take care of my physical basic needs like my home, food, heat, etc. The sun, the rain, the earth, all of that supports me and I don't feel alone or abandoned. I guess before I came to see how supported I am by the world I felt more desolate. So he must feel the desolation of being unsupported generally, maybe. Alone away from people does not mean alone totally, in my mind. It's a big difference! Yes, big difference! Your description sounds like harmony to me. |
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Post by faithopelove on Jan 23, 2019 3:04:01 GMT
Oh, and faithopelove ... his statement that he was afraid to hope. This was a huge obstacle to me in early awareness when I experienced tenderness and attachment. As soon as I dared to hope and feel like that I felt devastating fear and pain. I read that somewhere too, that DA have a terrible aversion to hope because it opens up unfathomable loss. Probably the hope we had that our parents would some day turn and see us. Yes, that makes sense. Hope makes one vulnerable. He told me early on he didn’t have the gift of faith; however, he proceeded to fall for me, albeit exclaiming the entire time that he’s never opened up to anyone before. |
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Post by faithopelove on Jan 23, 2019 3:06:44 GMT
Hey, maybe this is exactly it. He only did this at night. Maybe his anxiety was peaking and he needed reassurance before he went to sleep. And, early in the relationship he said that it was extremely important to never go to bed with tension or an unresolved issue. I think that's good generally; but he was empathic and it was one of the first needs he expressed. As for me; as a DA, I don't like going to bed with tension either but of course it would cause me to deactivate and going to sleep is a great way to... deactivate. So no such discussion would be initiated by me, I would just drift off alone as we all do when we go to Sleepyville... there are no passengers on the road to Sleepyville, perfect way for an avoidant to shut down lol! In fact he brought up all the concerns at night. He must have had peak anxiety at the end of the day? Ok I feel my brain shattering. Lol! But it's sad , this whole thing is sad. mmmmm. is this why I wanted good morning and good night texts? it's a way to remind me that this person exists in my life, particularly if i don't see him. I always have this feeling that if i'm not communicating with this person or keeping in contact, i actually literally forget about that person. it feels also like if i had my own life, i wouldn't really keep the existing relationships because i'd be too busy doing my own thing and having no resources for anyone else. Yes, I loved that reassurance my ex would provide. After our break, one of the things I missed the most was that reassuring good night text. It’s almost like AP lack the object permanence that young babies lack- that’s why they’re always surprised by peek a boo. Object hidden under blanket equals no object. |
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And I’m an AP who longs for closeness. That way you expressed this makes sense and gives me a much greater understanding of how an avoidant would feel that way. It seems like a confident, freeing and self-assured way to live....and as long as you’re not craving the closeness, then you’re not missing it. As you said, if you never tasted pineapple, then you don’t know the taste or miss it. It sounds freeing to not be reliant on someone or in search of something you may never find. It sounds content. 
