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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2019 19:46:37 GMT
Just keep going caro  |
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Post by alexandra on Aug 11, 2019 20:50:38 GMT
I spent so much time in therapy working on myself...but it was so I could get this guy or that guy...so it really was not healing my AP but rather feeding it. I would still love to figure B out...I want that upper hand so to speak...but, I know that healing does not come from changing to fit someone else, but being who you are and how the other person fits into the broader picture of your life.
Ah -- "figuring" someone else out doesn't give you an upper hand! I think that feeds into the AP narrative more than anything, that there is a "right" set of behaviors, a magic formula. Figuring someone out helps you de-personalize their behavior, but it doesn't change their behavior or your dynamic with that person. All it does is allow you to use that information to reflect back on how you're receiving them and if you're being fair to them as a fellow human being while honoring yourself. I have a pretty firm grasp on attachment theory patterns after a very long time trying to understand it, and it hasn't influenced any of my avoidant partners to come back or given me any sort of upper hand with new partners... it has just allowed me to step away from unbalanced situations if the other person wasn't also doing the work (even just being equally invested in showing up as a friend if things don't work out romantically). And while it still hurts very much to step away, it doesn't grind my life to a halt anymore.
I've said this in other posts on the board, but, for me, healing came from building self-acceptance and self-identity, and understanding what trauma and dysfunctional outlooks I took on from other extended family members that, it turned out, were projected on me and weren't really mine or inherently part of who I am at all. And finally understanding how these insecure thought patterns differed from secure thought patterns. That's where understanding different attachment styles really helped me -- contrasting anxious with avoidant, and then contrasting those with secure. Reading all the cyclical patterns of interaction on this board, repeated dynamics of each pairing (ie AP/FA, AP/DA, DA/FA) in post after post by all different users, REALLY helped with that. I'd already had many real-life examples from my dating fiascos by that point, but seeing the shared experiences and how predictable the outcomes were with the same set of inputs in each situation (assuming the clashing set of insecures in the pairing are both basically unaware and not consciously working towards secure) was SO helpful for me.
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Post by tnr9 on Aug 12, 2019 1:49:48 GMT
Ah -- "figuring" someone else out doesn't give you an upper hand! I think that feeds into the AP narrative more than anything, that there is a "right" set of behaviors, a magic formula. Figuring someone out helps you de-personalize their behavior, but it doesn't change their behavior or your dynamic with that person. All it does is allow you to use that information to reflect back on how you're receiving them and if you're being fair to them as a fellow human being while honoring yourself. I have a pretty firm grasp on attachment theory patterns after a very long time trying to understand it, and it hasn't influenced any of my avoidant partners to come back or given me any sort of upper hand with new partners... it has just allowed me to step away from unbalanced situations if the other person wasn't also doing the work (even just being equally invested in showing up as a friend if things don't work out romantically). And while it still hurts very much to step away, it doesn't grind my life to a halt anymore.
I've said this in other posts on the board, but, for me, healing came from building self-acceptance and self-identity, and understanding what trauma and dysfunctional outlooks I took on from other extended family members that, it turned out, were projected on me and weren't really mine or inherently part of who I am at all. And finally understanding how these insecure thought patterns differed from secure thought patterns. That's where understanding different attachment styles really helped me -- contrasting anxious with avoidant, and then contrasting those with secure. Reading all the cyclical patterns of interaction on this board, repeated dynamics of each pairing (ie AP/FA, AP/DA, DA/FA) in post after post by all different users, REALLY helped with that. I'd already had many real-life examples from my dating fiascos by that point, but seeing the shared experiences and how predictable the outcomes were with the same set of inputs in each situation (assuming the clashing set of insecures in the pairing are both basically unaware and not consciously working towards secure) was SO helpful for me.
I agree...figuring someone out has not changed any dynamic for me either...but it is the instinctual path I go down every single time I fear a loss. What s so interesting is...even in the midst of B telling me we are ok....I still panic....I honestly do not know what enough looks like, feels like....but when I feel the way I do right now....that is when I am driven to go into”I want to figure him out”...perhaps it is more authentic to say...I want to figure out what it will take for the fear to go away...for me to stop worrying that he is about to abandon me...that words spoken 2 days ago do not mean anything today. Thank you Alexandria for the sound reminder....it is important to have different voices speak truth. |
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Post by serenity on Aug 12, 2019 4:01:56 GMT
What I’d love to focus on is the key moments or best advice everyone here has gotten to help them heal... maybe that’s better for the other support forums... but I feel like that’s the best thing we can do now is turn to practicing what we’re preaching. Again, thankful for everyone. It’s pretty great to have a supportive community, and to learn about all of the types and how we interact. I wanted to add that in my personal experiences (and from what I have observed) that an attachment between people can feel secure, no matter what individual personal issues may be involved. Secure attachment is based on behaviours that benefit the relationship, not underlying feeling (unless one acts on feelings without any conscious thought). Some of our basic emotional imprinting can be hardwired. Its therefore not helpful to pathologise people for having a particular emotional makeup, I've found, and some find it obnoxious. I find this thread veers at times on pathologicing people who are sensitive to abandonment, with a lot splitting, and projection, rather than getting to the heart of what behaviours make a relationship between people feel secure. It is absolutely possible to have abandonment issues and securely attach to a someone with an FA style of attachment. Its not a `pre condition' that someone act on fear and anxiety in any particular way...we have choices. Ones that can promote security in our attachments, and ones that don't. |
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Post by mrob on Aug 12, 2019 5:26:10 GMT
When I found attachment theory, it explained my unconscious that animated my conscious, if that makes any sense. I don’t feel that a lot of this is chosen behaviour when unaware. Who would willingly choose to set themselves up for failure like this?
Upon awareness, that’s a different story. When I can see what my unconscious is trying to do, then I have a choice of behaviour.
Attachment is the lens through which I see relationships with others.
That’s my belief, anyway. And I can see the improvement at my end.
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Post by tnr9 on Aug 12, 2019 13:34:01 GMT
What I’d love to focus on is the key moments or best advice everyone here has gotten to help them heal... maybe that’s better for the other support forums... but I feel like that’s the best thing we can do now is turn to practicing what we’re preaching. Again, thankful for everyone. It’s pretty great to have a supportive community, and to learn about all of the types and how we interact. I wanted to add that in my personal experiences (and from what I have observed) that an attachment between people can feel secure, no matter what individual personal issues may be involved. Secure attachment is based on behaviours that benefit the relationship, not underlying feeling (unless one acts on feelings without any conscious thought). Some of our basic emotional imprinting can be hardwired. Its therefore not helpful to pathologise people for having a particular emotional makeup, I've found, and some find it obnoxious. I find this thread veers at times on pathologicing people who are sensitive to abandonment, with a lot splitting, and projection, rather than getting to the heart of what behaviours make a relationship between people feel secure. It is absolutely possible to have abandonment issues and securely attach to a someone with an FA style of attachment. Its not a `pre condition' that someone act on fear and anxiety in any particular way...we have choices. Ones that can promote security in our attachments, and ones that don't. I think what is becoming real here is the difference in the attachment styles views of each other....I as an AP cannot walk the walk of someone who is DA or FA...I have to learn through their sharing of their own experience. While I think it is true that it is not good to refer to the “growth edges” in negative terms (thus recreating the negative experience from childhood) it is also not good to ignore them. I have issues in relationships....that is why I am here. Choices are great once awareness is achieved...but there are a lot of unaware individuals. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2019 9:35:24 GMT
I agree...figuring someone out has not changed any dynamic for me either...but it is the instinctual path I go down every single time I fear a loss. I so identify with this too... it's probably unconsciously like if I can figure them out, I can prevent it — so all a sense of control to prevent the abandonment and loss. This is the manipulation of codependence which leads to the abandonment of the self in pursuit of control. It's not malicious but has a devastating impact on you, leaving you exhausted and heartbroken because it doesn't work. That was my point in all of this, because the figuring out of him leads to the abandonment of you. |
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Post by tnr9 on Aug 13, 2019 12:12:13 GMT
I so identify with this too... it's probably unconsciously like if I can figure them out, I can prevent it — so all a sense of control to prevent the abandonment and loss. This is the manipulation of codependence which leads to the abandonment of the self in pursuit of control. It's not malicious but has a devastating impact on you, leaving you exhausted and heartbroken because it doesn't work. That was my point in all of this, because the figuring out of him leads to the abandonment of you. Correct...but...would you say the same thing about a 3 year old or a 5 year old or a 7 year old or a 10 year old? That is where it starts..in childhood...it is a learned pattern for dealing with the inconsistency from our parents. I would imagine that some of the patterns you used to display also have their roots in your childhood. So although I agree it appears manipulative to others...there really isn’t that thought that happens in me because when I really go into that mode of thinking....it is back to that child who only wants to figure someone else out so that person will not leave, be inconsistent etc. Yes, it develops into codependency, yes it is abandoning oneself (very textbook AP) ..but it all about avoiding fear. The answer is having someone who can be that consistency that was so desired in childhood. The biggest challenge is to see/feel the inconsistency and choose to walk away instead of trying to change in order to make the dynamic change. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2019 12:23:36 GMT
tnr9 I am not using the word manipulation to shame anyone. I don't see it that way. I totally understand where it is coming from. I'm differentiating this manipulation from mature love, that has the best interests of both people in mind and can protect both. The article I posted on this thread speaks to the way the manipulation abandons the self which is the opposite of what we all need to do to heal. It uses a description of an internal politician- and it's a poignant illustration. In my opinion, it's a very supportive article. Did you read it? Did anyone read it? It's not shaming. It's very touching,, in my opinion because it is one codependents awakening to how she abandoned herself. I think it's validating and encouraging and shows self love to come to that realization, not shaming.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2019 12:28:29 GMT
All my threads here were about caroline recognizing her own narrative and taking care of herself, seeing how the old scripts play out, and not mutilating herself trying to get love from an unavailable source. Why would I shame and promote self love and protection at the same time?
All, every single one of the insecure attachment styles manipulate and abandon themselves and others. In this case, analysis of the guy had her internally in knots to known how to best take care of him to the detriment of her own well being. Enabling that process (of analysis of him) seemed to be taking her in a very painful and defeated direction. I happen to read a lot more empowerment in her last post about recognizing her own pitfalls so she can then learn how to avoid them. For her - not for him... to take good care of herself and honor her own needs instead of sacrificing them for a partner who cannot meet them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2019 12:51:59 GMT
My thought process for getting myself out of a painful situation is very different but I will come back to this thread when I have time today to explain how I myself would use the word manipulation to describe an unhealthy coping mechanism of my own. I find terms like this helpfulfoe ne to differentiate between something healthy for myself and others vs healthy for myself and others. It blows away chaff for me to be able to see clearly and be focused to solve the poribkem. There is not a negative judgement involved- in fact I appreciate the clarify because much of my insecure thinking is muddled and confusing.
I see words like "manipulation" and control" to be helpful technical terms when describing motivations of myself and others simply because it gives something solid to examine. For me it's a linear thought process to start with a word like manipulation, and accept it and then begin to dissect it. It leads me to awareness of my own though process that has roots in actually trying to tt love and give love but going about it in a very sideways way. Through such analysis I am able to take clear steps and know exactly what to address on myself (fears, old habits, etc) in order to grow healthier.
I will be back to provide a real example of the thought process as it applies to myself. Perhaps that will help you see my perspective as I intend it.
Oh, and in addition to manipulating to try to get love of give love, in an unaware state I manipulate in order to protect myself. That would actually probably be the bulk of my manipulations- where I say or do things out of a protective mechanism instead of authentic engagement or stating my real needs (which I have had to work hard to identify).
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Post by tnr9 on Aug 13, 2019 15:19:09 GMT
tnr9 I am not using the word manipulation to shame anyone. I don't see it that way. I totally understand where it is coming from. I'm differentiating this manipulation from mature love, that has the best interests of both people in mind and can protect both. The article I posted on this thread speaks to the way the manipulation abandons the self which is the opposite of what we all need to do to heal. It uses a description of an internal politician- and it's a poignant illustration. In my opinion, it's a very supportive article. Did you read it? Did anyone read it? It's not shaming. It's very touching,, in my opinion because it is one codependents awakening to how she abandoned herself. I think it's validating and encouraging and shows self love to come to that realization, not shaming. Thanks for clarifying because the word “manipulation” has a very negative connotation for me....completely unrelated to you or your post. Words like “selfish”, “childish” “manipulative” take me back to a time that those words were used in a hurtful versus helpful way. Again...thanks for explaining. 🙂 |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2019 15:34:11 GMT
tnr9 I am not using the word manipulation to shame anyone. I don't see it that way. I totally understand where it is coming from. I'm differentiating this manipulation from mature love, that has the best interests of both people in mind and can protect both. The article I posted on this thread speaks to the way the manipulation abandons the self which is the opposite of what we all need to do to heal. It uses a description of an internal politician- and it's a poignant illustration. In my opinion, it's a very supportive article. Did you read it? Did anyone read it? It's not shaming. It's very touching,, in my opinion because it is one codependents awakening to how she abandoned herself. I think it's validating and encouraging and shows self love to come to that realization, not shaming. Thanks for clarifying because the word “manipulation” has a very negative connotation for me....completely unrelated to you or your post. Words like “selfish”, “childish” “manipulative” take me back to a time that those words were used in a hurtful versus helpful way. Again...thanks for explaining. 🙂 Oh no problem! Thanks for letting me know what the irk was. I think that there is a divide because of where each of the styles comes from. Some styles are heavy on the conscious shame and low self esteem. My style is direct problem solving with an emphasis away from shame and heading toward logic and workable understandings for myself. So for my friends and I discussing our patterns we might laugh and be amazed when we find out we are lying to ourselves , or telling stupid white lies (if there is such a thing) in order to manipulate and avoid our own vulnerability. Because seeing it is a relief. "Oh my god Kristin I was lying my face off and didn't even realize it! I manipulated myself right into a corner where there's no choice but to come clean. Fuck!" But then the solution is obvious. See what I mean? It's a totally different approach. I feel relief at being able to identify components of my own dysfunction in order to understand what I need to do to fix it. So, for me the phrase "I lied!" is the first step in being able to tell the truth- it's not shameful it's the first step to being honest. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2019 15:51:37 GMT
If you read my posts for caroline here with that perspective they will read differently. My intention was to help in the best way I know how and I kept saying I am not shaming, I am not trying to hurt feelings, and the article says it so well. I did repeat those things to try to explain my thinking on all this. Communication gap here.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2019 21:03:11 GMT
Ok- I'm back to describe a manipulation of mine that I have recognized which is common to dismissive but I didn't even realize what it was until it was pointed out to me as passive aggression.
Nobody is proud to find that they are guilty of passive aggressive behavior, and certainly not I- but if I recognize and accept an outside objective analysis of my behavior, then it provides a very quick burst of humility (need not be humiliation) and a recognition of culpability that truly motivates a desire to change, correct, heal, whatever. And, it also inspires in me the 1) admission of wrongdoing even if not intended maliciously 2) an opportunity to ask for forgiveness and forgive myself 3) an opportunity to actually build relationship and ask for help or support while I work on things instead of tearing relationship down by remaining oblivious to or sugarcoating and justifying my unhealthy behavior (which has a negative impact on both me and the other person who receives it).
Here's the example: Withdrawal as attack, withdrawal as rejection. Not all withdrawal and deactivation is actually attack, or rejection of the other person. Many times it is just automatic, someone hit the dimmer switch, my nervous system puts me into a subdued state and that's not what I am referring to here.
I am talking about the manipulation of where I feel AFRAID to voice my real feelings and thoughts because I am afraid of attack or rejection resulting from such a revelation.
Rather than be vulnerable or ask for help, a withdraw as attack makes YOU feel rejected instead of me. How nice is that? It's not. But I'm not consciously trying to hurt you. I am afraid. The way i can manage that fear dysfunctionally without actually having to face it is lay it on you. You can't reject me I rejected you first!! That's a manipulation, and it hurts both of us. I'm not giving you an opportunity to love and support me, let alone provide the imagined attack and rejection. I win, you lose, and it's not fair. To either of us.
In order for me to make sense of this it is in fact best for me to accept the word manipulation as a description of my behavior. Others would see it so, and may even see it in a more damaging light than I! Why not admit and provide validation to the other and also for myself, what it really is? What's going on in me at such a time is not so easy to access, if it's all squished under fear and suppressed feelings.
In this example I would be lying by saying something untrue "I'm fine. That doesn't bother me."
If I realize it's a lie, I can ask myself "Well, what's the truth?"
The truth may be something you deserved to hear so that you could understand and not take blame on yourself for some weirdness coming from me. You can see I'm not ok, you sense I am lying... but I deny it. But you are exactly right, something is wrong... and since I deny it so completely and stubbornly and then even become annoyed with you trying to get the truth, I have a reason to withdraw because "Gawd you're such a nag."
Now, not only have I lied to you, when you really only wanted the truth and to understand me, you're feeling it must have been something you did and that I am mad at you but you're left alone with a manipulative silent treatment because I am afraid. The thing is- I may be upset with you and it happens in every relationship- but I have turned it into something that wounds us both, instead of an opportunity to be real and help each other.
We both lose. If I could identify my feelings and share that vulnerably, you would have an opportunity to meet me there and love me the way you'd like to. I deny both of us love don't I? Because I deny my authentic self and cover it up.
See what I did there? See the manipulation? But I didn't mean to hurt you!! It wasn't all conscious- it was fear operating defensively , in pattern.
Being open to seeing that in one instance , by not being afraid of the word manipulate (I forgive myself and call it like it is while understanding it's origins with compassion) I can then explore other areas and instances of shortcomings and put pieces together that I'd miss if I didn't see my dishonesty.
It's somewhat stringent but for me isn't pinging a sense of unlovability so much as a sense of hiding and fear.
I get that this approach doesn't resonate with all, and truthfully I am one of the few here that may find this kind of approach actually helpful. But does it make more sense if I explain it?
I think I included some manipulations in one of my early threads "Things we think and do" - because there was a time my friend and I were comparing notes on how absurd we can be in defense and fear. I personally find it liberating to recognize and not beat myself up about it. It makes it easier to admit and also easier to fix.
In the end, I can only explain so much and at some point I have to accept that my words and intentions will be accepted at face value as I mean then, and as I have tried to express (no shame) - or not. I don't want to defend myself any more than anyone else here but I have repeatedly pointed to caroline's well being and self awareness/understanding as the goal, with an eye on relieving her painful patterns that she can recognize going way back. That's what we are all here for (I think) .
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