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Post by stu on Sept 25, 2019 3:53:20 GMT
I don't know about attachments with autism, but I used to work as a behavioral therapist for people on the spectrum. And autistic people struggle a lot to step out of their own minds, connect with others fully, understand different points of view, and other things that make socialization more difficult for them. Oh wow, interesting to hear about your work as a therapist, and with people on the spectrum of autism. With your training, its understandable how you wished to help your ex, and still would like to know whats possible. I felt that my ex's `FA' behaviours were mainly related to dissociation, due to (complex) PTSD and child abuse (he agreed) . Yeah I just have a hard time walking away from someone if they are truly just struggling but trying their best to overcome things. I wanted to show them that they didn't have to have the same worries anymore. And I wanted to understand the mindset behind everything. Being ghosted for this long though is hard to comprehend. Which is why I'm just moving on for now, but hoping to in the very least reconnect to at least talk to them one last time to hear what's going on for them and understand things . |
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Post by serenity on Sept 25, 2019 4:45:54 GMT
I feel the same way. I have a soft spot for people who have been wounded by caregivers in childhood; I know how that feels. But this FA ex ... Its as if the triggers for (what I suspect is) his PTSD/dissociation are all the things I personally need in a healthy relationship. I mean even deep or vulnerable conversation triggers it. Intimacy and closeness triggers it. Acts of love triggers it. Affection triggers it. He'd still seek out those things in cycles, on his terms, but right after he'd check out again.
I wasn't able to figure out what more to ask of such a person, that wouldn't come across as `how about you learn to live with more pain?' .
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Post by stu on Sept 25, 2019 5:16:54 GMT
I feel the same way. I have a soft spot for people who have been wounded by caregivers in childhood; I know how that feels. But this FA ex ... Its as if the triggers for (what I suspect is) his PTSD/dissociation are all the things I personally need in a healthy relationship. I mean even deep or vulnerable conversation triggers it. Intimacy and closeness triggers it. Acts of love triggers it. Affection triggers it. He'd still seek out those things in cycles, on his terms, but right after he'd check out again. I wasn't able to figure out what more to ask of such a person, that wouldn't come across as `how about you learn to live with more pain?' . Of course, and it's really not sustainable to hold something together when they are in that deep. For most people anyways. I thought things were going well with my FA the last many months even times where she distanced her self then or had some mini de activations but the sudden over a month ghosting shows that unless she reached out showing real change, desire to work through things, And really wanting to work on it above and beyond listening to the fears anymore and instead challenging them to overcome it. It would not be sustainable long term either. And every other de activation would be that much more hurt for me, who would only get more attached and invested and not able to deactivate and dissociate from my connection with her in the same way. I was never under the impression she would reach out say she wants things to work, we would end up together and magically from one conversation or one motivated feeling of hers, suddenly her life long attachment issues were never going to get activated ever again. Of course I also have to work on my attachment issues, and everything going on with me so that I can be as secure a partner as possible and take things as best as possible myself. Because it takes two to tango of course. It's so hard, I mean right now I'm just treating it as over and letting things go. But what we had together was really great and I really loved her a lot, and the way things ended just left a sour note of the whole experience. And if we had the chance to do things right and be able to build the genuine connection we had, Into a long term and even deeper bond and love together. It would be a really nice ending I guess lol. I just want to heal myself, and if she wanted to heal her stuff too I wanted to be supportive and encouring and there's so much that feels rewarding with all of that. I could find someone secure and just not have to work through all this stuff if it were to happen. And I could deal with less stress and maybe things would be much easier and light. But I also have a hard time turning my back and not wanting to give more light to someone who is really having struggle if they reached out and wanted to share things together. It just feels like it would make more sense that things went that way with everything we had between us, then for the rest of my life I just never hear from her again. And that she massively de activated this one time and forever was gone there after. It just doesn't fit everything that happened before or make sense of her personality or how we were together. Though the reality right now Is that for whatever reason she is highly avoidant to connect and has not communicated with me in overa month. |
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Post by mrob on Sept 25, 2019 5:38:23 GMT
I feel the same way. I have a soft spot for people who have been wounded by caregivers in childhood; I know how that feels. But this FA ex ... Its as if the triggers for (what I suspect is) his PTSD/dissociation are all the things I personally need in a healthy relationship. I mean even deep or vulnerable conversation triggers it. Intimacy and closeness triggers it. Acts of love triggers it. Affection triggers it. He'd still seek out those things in cycles, on his terms, but right after he'd check out again. I wasn't able to figure out what more to ask of such a person, that wouldn't come across as `how about you learn to live with more pain?' . And that’s the problem, and why I hope one day love won’t be so linked with pain. |
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Post by serenity on Sept 25, 2019 6:07:18 GMT
I feel you; and I can imagine the frustration mrob. If a loved one suggests (or worse `handles' me into) a situation where I constantly experience the pain of my worst triggers, I feel lost. I can't take that much pain for love.
Do you feel any lessening of the pain as decades pass?
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Post by mrob on Sept 25, 2019 6:22:16 GMT
serenity, I’m sitting in a well known Swedish shop right now that I used to come to as part of a happy, even though moderately triggered, family and I’m unexpectedly sad for the good things this rotten attachment style has robbed me of, so please forgive my self pity for a sec.
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Post by tnr9 on Sept 25, 2019 7:43:06 GMT
I think to exclusively bond with `Avoidants' or abusers, its more likely to be because of absence of any secure attachments in childhood. I don't agree, but based on my personal experience which is a sample size of one. I've actually always had a secure attachment to both my parents (who also are secure with each other, even if not overall) and plenty of stable friendships. But I still basically only dated avoidants, because I still believed romantic love was limmerance ie when I was getting triggered and emotionally overwhelmed. The dysfunctional extended family examples weren't the only ones I had, but they took on an oversized quality. That is interesting.....I have “avoidant” parents....and my mom and I are like water and oil. Just the other night, she showed my brother and I old statements we wrote when we were kids about cleaning our rooms...she then told me I was really such a difficult child....then later on that evening she tells me how proud she is of me....this is the mixed messaging I have gotten from her for decades....I was the Black sheep of the family as a child and it is as if she cannot put that to bed....she has to remind me in some direct or tongue in check way just how problematic I was....but then, usually in that same conversation, she will tell me that I am the most grace giving person she knows, that she is proud of what I have accomplished...while still making “recommendations” of what she thinks will make my life better. One of the aspects of B that I loved was...he never judged what I wore, he never judged how messy my place was....it was such an amazing “break” from feeling so inadequate all the time. Just to be able to be without this overriding expectation of more and better. |
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Post by tnr9 on Sept 25, 2019 7:53:08 GMT
Thanks Mrob, I see it for what it is. I just don't see too many examples of it changing for the better by being secure as possible and sticking around longer term. My wanting to continue would just be on intuition if it felt like the FA was really wanting to improve things going on for them, as I did the same for me. If it felt like they were in a certain good spot of coming toward recovery. So they could get a better handle on not acting out all the impulses the attachment fears say to do ,every time. I guess it's hard to figure all that out without talking about everything and a lot of action on both ends. It is easier to walk too. Which is what I'm doing now, I just wondered what would it take if things did ever start up again because it was something we both wanted. To actually work well and be something where we both become better and more grown people as a result. I will check out the book too , thanks. Read his other book but not that particular one. The intuition in this case is the problem. My intuition would tell me that you just want me to behave in the way you want and I should fall in, and that I should leave before I end up trapped. This doesn't begin consciously. That's why what @sherry was doing with somatic (?) therapy was very interesting. I've done both... I shoved it down, not understanding how on Earth I could be feeling like this. I went to therapy multiple times and got absolutely nowhere. I kept telling myself that I was being stupid, delusional, but eventually it caught up with me and I sabotaged my life, and changed that of those around me forever. This was over 9 years. Then, next time around, I let it all play out and it was a total nightmare. Went to therapy, still got nowhere, stumbled across this here and have made more progress here than in more than a decade. The "intuition" (note the inverted commas) is the problem. The love triggers are my problem - I still find sick people exciting. I hope one day it is different. My ex-wife could never understand why I didn't feel excitement, only trepidation... because anything I find exciting generally isn't good for me! It's very interesting being in any type of relationship - work, social, intimate - being aware of attachment styles, and more importantly, the way I interact with them. What is so interesting is that that is exactly how I feel about seeing a like on Facebook from B or seeing him in the community....I feel trepidation....and I keep trying to go back to feeling love/kindness....but in that moment I just feel fear....and I literally freeze. It feels so irrational to me and what I do as a result....the “avoiding” feels incredibly immature....but in those moments...it is like I can’t find my way back to adult. |
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Post by dhali on Sept 25, 2019 17:10:59 GMT
I don't agree, but based on my personal experience which is a sample size of one. I've actually always had a secure attachment to both my parents (who also are secure with each other, even if not overall) and plenty of stable friendships. But I still basically only dated avoidants, because I still believed romantic love was limmerance ie when I was getting triggered and emotionally overwhelmed. The dysfunctional extended family examples weren't the only ones I had, but they took on an oversized quality. Hehe  I sometimes need to check myself on the `sample size of one' thing too,lol. I feel you on confusing limerance, anxiety, and love. I expect most people do. Real love just takes a lot of time, more time than most people are willing to wait before becoming intimate. Limerance gets a bad rep. It is essentially the honeymoon phase, which is needed to bond. Without it, no one would put up with anyone. Plus it’s fun. Yes, you typically say you love the person in this stage, and that’s more of a euphoric feeling than love, but it is also where you start seriously considering the choice of staying with this person and being tolerant of their faults. With love being a choice, your choice is starting here. |
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Post by mrob on Sept 26, 2019 1:20:21 GMT
It does get a bad rap. It has its purpose, but thinking limerence is love and expecting that to continue on is fairyland stuff.
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Post by dhali on Sept 26, 2019 2:01:25 GMT
True, but I’ve had girlfriends where it leaves, and I’m able to get the butterflies back from time to time. It’s when extreme care has been mutually obvious. There is something to be said for mutual adoration.
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Post by stu on Sept 26, 2019 2:16:49 GMT
I think there's a big saying when it's said love is a choice. I've been completely in love with ex girlfriends for a very long time. Because I consciously choose to fully invest and commit to them body and mind. And stay aware of their positive qualities and attractive traits. I never de value them, and always hold them in high regard. Regardless of surface level issues that come up. I never just "fall out of love".
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Post by mrob on Sept 26, 2019 2:57:44 GMT
So, where do you both think you fit, style wise?
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Post by stu on Sept 26, 2019 3:07:46 GMT
So, where do you both think you fit, style wise? It depends who I'm paired with sometimes but generally secure. But can be triffered anxious or avoidant under right conditions. But even then I still come back to feeling secure as a baseline after being triggered for whatever amount of time it can be. Generally I seek to resolve conflict, and want to reconnect and focus on the bond rather then let insecurities block things for me. So I always will fully put myself back to re connect with it . Regardless of what happens. |
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Post by dhali on Sept 26, 2019 4:35:37 GMT
So, where do you both think you fit, style wise? Really tough for me to say. I'd say mildly FA sometimes, but mostly secure. I test (on the web) secure, with a slightly anxious element. If I'm with an avoidant, I'm most certainly the weaker avoidant, and can get triggered anxious (see below). If I'm with an anxious, depending on how bad they are, I can bring them to secure, but may disengage because of it (high touch can drive me bonkers, though I'll generally tolerate it to a point). If I'm with a secure, I'm secure. I can go through times of emotional unavailability(usually because I'm processing a failed relationship). Those can last a while. None of the feelings described by FA's or DA's resonate with me though. Once out of my emotional funk, I'm generally moving towards connecting. Part of that is the anxious side, but I'm not afraid. I generally adopt the fuck yes or no philosophy. If they are showing interest, and I like them, then yes. If I'm not feeling it on their side, I can start disengaging. And obviously, if I'm not feeling it, I might give it some extra time, but I cut things off firmly, with empathy. There's not much leading anyone on (sometimes I stick around to see what'll happen, but that's before I love you's are exchanged) and I'm generally able to trust. I have a tendency to ultimately want only one type of intimacy, and it usually isn't the physical kind. I need to fix this. This is what makes me believe I swing avoidant. I can also be ignorant of emotional bids. My last girlfriend, I believed to be DA, but is probably some form of FA instead. She f'ed me up and triggered me anxious in a way I haven't felt since college. Obsessively anxious. But I am in control of my actions, and one day I will have her fully in my rearview mirror mentally. As far as she is concerned, I just disappeared from her life right after she said the words (hung up right away). She love bombed me, and then left me abruptly. It blew me away. I didn't even know that sort of thing was possible. The end "conversation" was filled with contept too, so I was real hard on myself for a month or so. I did have my dignity though. I doubt she's ever had someone instantly disappear before. So my anxious side (though I felt it), can't be crazy anxious. Anyhow, she's the first avoidant I've been with, that I know of. I do get activated by thinking about the "I wonder if she regrets, thinks of me, etc" stuff. I know that's bad. I also pretend that I know what's in her head - as if she's totally into me, just overcome by her attachment system. I know it's all bullshit I'm telling my ego. The truth is, she's probably doesn't give me a second thought anymore. At least in a reconciliation sort of way. I'm trying to mentally construct a certainty where I mattered to her. That's a tough one to let go of. A younger me would have been a mess and probably still be begging. And pushing and convincing. Maybe even a ploy to bump into her. Those days are long gone. I adopt the past is best left in the past approach. But relationship anxiety certainly exists. |
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I sometimes need to check myself on the `sample size of one' thing too,lol.