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Post by kittygirl on Feb 3, 2020 21:28:25 GMT
Amber- I don't really know but from my experience and for what it's worth (particularly with my FA friend), the "not feeling like you deserve something good" is probably very true. But it's interesting because, at least in the case of my friend, he doesn't see it as such. He just talks about how the women he is seeing (who are seemingly secure and are into him-one in particular would like to escalate the relationship) have all these flaws (like they snore too much or they don't have good enough conversations etc etc) and that's why he doesn't want to escalate the relationship. Somehow, the only woman he can "see himself with" is the one who was even more avoidant than he is (extremely FA), and thats the only person he felt the "spark" for (which I now can see as clear as day is because she triggers him extremely anxious). I have said to him before "Do you think part of why you are into her and not these other people is because maybe you subconsciously don't think you deserve someone who is stable and will really love you and care about you unconditionally?" and he's like "yeah probably". It doesn't help though as he still feels he lacks the "chemistry" (his words) with anyone who doesn't trigger him to high hell. He's also exceedingly lonely which doesn't help because when he is with someone he feels like that should fix his loneliness and it never does which he perceives as not a good match, causing him to push them away, resulting in more loneliness-you get the idea.
I'm not saying this is an FA characteristic in general, but at least with my friend I absolutely think he's scared at failing with someone who is stable and good to him-as he effectively told me.
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Post by Dualcitizen on Feb 3, 2020 22:12:56 GMT
Amber- I don't really know but from my experience and for what it's worth (particularly with my FA friend), the "not feeling like you deserve something good" is probably very true. But it's interesting because, at least in the case of my friend, he doesn't see it as such. He just talks about how the women he is seeing (who are seemingly secure and are into him-one in particular would like to escalate the relationship) have all these flaws (like they snore too much or they don't have good enough conversations etc etc) and that's why he doesn't want to escalate the relationship. Somehow, the only woman he can "see himself with" is the one who was even more avoidant than he is (extremely FA), and thats the only person he felt the "spark" for (which I now can see as clear as day is because she triggers him extremely anxious). I have said to him before "Do you think part of why you are into her and not these other people is because maybe you subconsciously don't think you deserve someone who is stable and will really love you and care about you unconditionally?" and he's like "yeah probably". It doesn't help though as he still feels he lacks the "chemistry" (his words) with anyone who doesn't trigger him to high hell. He's also exceedingly lonely which doesn't help because when he is with someone he feels like that should fix his loneliness and it never does which he perceives as not a good match, causing him to push them away, resulting in more loneliness-you get the idea. I'm not saying this is an FA characteristic in general, but at least with my friend I absolutely think he's scared at failing with someone who is stable and good to him-as he effectively told me. It would be to do with the "familiar" as well. As F-As clearly come from enmeshment trauma, and emotionally avoidant homes, and so clearly they will gravitate towards that primarily via the attachment. But yeah I can vouch for the "unworthiness" commentary. Definitely critical inner voice driving that, saw it first hand, and have told the F-A I know about it. Totally unaware of it btw until I mentioned it to her. |
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Post by amber on Feb 3, 2020 22:19:48 GMT
Amber- I don't really know but from my experience and for what it's worth (particularly with my FA friend), the "not feeling like you deserve something good" is probably very true. But it's interesting because, at least in the case of my friend, he doesn't see it as such. He just talks about how the women he is seeing (who are seemingly secure and are into him-one in particular would like to escalate the relationship) have all these flaws (like they snore too much or they don't have good enough conversations etc etc) and that's why he doesn't want to escalate the relationship. Somehow, the only woman he can "see himself with" is the one who was even more avoidant than he is (extremely FA), and thats the only person he felt the "spark" for (which I now can see as clear as day is because she triggers him extremely anxious). I have said to him before "Do you think part of why you are into her and not these other people is because maybe you subconsciously don't think you deserve someone who is stable and will really love you and care about you unconditionally?" and he's like "yeah probably". It doesn't help though as he still feels he lacks the "chemistry" (his words) with anyone who doesn't trigger him to high hell. He's also exceedingly lonely which doesn't help because when he is with someone he feels like that should fix his loneliness and it never does which he perceives as not a good match, causing him to push them away, resulting in more loneliness-you get the idea. I'm not saying this is an FA characteristic in general, but at least with my friend I absolutely think he's scared at failing with someone who is stable and good to him-as he effectively told me. |
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Post by amber on Feb 3, 2020 22:30:01 GMT
Kittygirl- thanks I appreciate your response. I think its fairly safe to say that part of why your friend isn't aware that he 'doesn't deserve' something good is because he isn't aware at all of his feelings. with avoidants they are so shoved down and disconnected from themselves and their emotions, that there is little awareness of whats going on internally. I think they also 'undercouple' (something ive been reading about recently) which is where they are unable to make connections between things; ie past events to current events. so they likely cant connect an old childhood experience to an adult experience and see how one may be influencing the other. my ex FA was the same as your friend;; would just stop feeling 'right' or 'connected' to women and then say they just arnt the right one (including me, after initially telling me I was the one he had been waiting for and I was perfect for him), then he leaves the r/ship. his justification for not feeling strongly enough for me was ' I feel I could give more'.. which I code for " you arnt dynsfunctional enough/needy enough/mentally unwell enough and you don't 'need' me' in the way all his past lovers needed him as they were all needy women in different ways. I think so much of his identity is wrapped up in being the caretaker/giver because that's likely the role he had to play as a child to get any love and care. so when hes not playing that role he doesn't know who he is, or doesn't feel 'needed'. ie I need to be needed (I also have this pattern, so understand it intimately).
Im not sure about your FA friend but it seemed like my ex was comfortable with failure. he admitted to me on the phone the other week that success is scary and unfamiliar and he is used to things going wrong. perhaps that's also why they don't take up with functional people, as they are afraid something may actually work out! hence the sabotaging comes into play. nothing ever seemed to work out for my ex, it was as if whenever something good would start happening ie new job, plans for something positive and new, something would get in the way and it wouldn't come into fruition. it seemed like bad luck but I wonder if there was some unconscious jeopardising of the situation.
i see FA as really desperately wanting connection with people but for the most part remaining lonely and isolated... I suspect that they feel lonely in r/ship because they are actually disconnected from SELF... then they blame the other person and feel they arnt right for them. they are hoping to find the perfect parent in a partner that will come and bring them the unconditional love they never had.
does your friend have disorganised/dysfunctional life generally speaking? find it hard to follow through with things, lots of starts and not many finishes?
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Post by amber on Feb 3, 2020 22:50:58 GMT
Amber- I don't really know but from my experience and for what it's worth (particularly with my FA friend), the "not feeling like you deserve something good" is probably very true. But it's interesting because, at least in the case of my friend, he doesn't see it as such. He just talks about how the women he is seeing (who are seemingly secure and are into him-one in particular would like to escalate the relationship) have all these flaws (like they snore too much or they don't have good enough conversations etc etc) and that's why he doesn't want to escalate the relationship. Somehow, the only woman he can "see himself with" is the one who was even more avoidant than he is (extremely FA), and thats the only person he felt the "spark" for (which I now can see as clear as day is because she triggers him extremely anxious). I have said to him before "Do you think part of why you are into her and not these other people is because maybe you subconsciously don't think you deserve someone who is stable and will really love you and care about you unconditionally?" and he's like "yeah probably". It doesn't help though as he still feels he lacks the "chemistry" (his words) with anyone who doesn't trigger him to high hell. He's also exceedingly lonely which doesn't help because when he is with someone he feels like that should fix his loneliness and it never does which he perceives as not a good match, causing him to push them away, resulting in more loneliness-you get the idea. I'm not saying this is an FA characteristic in general, but at least with my friend I absolutely think he's scared at failing with someone who is stable and good to him-as he effectively told me. It would be to do with the "familiar" as well. As F-As clearly come from enmeshment trauma, and emotionally avoidant homes, and so clearly they will gravitate towards that primarily via the attachment. But yeah I can vouch for the "unworthiness" commentary. Definitely critical inner voice driving that, saw it first hand, and have told the F-A I know about it. Totally unaware of it btw until I mentioned it to her. I can certainly vouch for this being a thing as all my long term relationships have had a LOT of similar characteristics of my father, and some of my mother too.my Mother was FA and my recent ex FA. This way of relating is so normal to me, hence why I was attracted and stayed with him way longer than what was healthy, and ignored all the red flags. Our brains are wired to go towards what is familiar. I think all humans do this to an extent. My ex had such a loud inner critic, he said to me once “I wish I wasn’t me, I wish I was someone different”.i feel a lot of compassion for him now as I know he is in enormous amounts of pain |
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Post by kittygirl on Feb 4, 2020 1:41:11 GMT
It would be to do with the "familiar" as well. As F-As clearly come from enmeshment trauma, and emotionally avoidant homes, and so clearly they will gravitate towards that primarily via the attachment. But yeah I can vouch for the "unworthiness" commentary. Definitely critical inner voice driving that, saw it first hand, and have told the F-A I know about it. Totally unaware of it btw until I mentioned it to her. I can certainly vouch for this being a thing as all my long term relationships have had a LOT of similar characteristics of my father, and some of my mother too.my Mother was FA and my recent ex FA. This way of relating is so normal to me, hence why I was attracted and stayed with him way longer than what was healthy, and ignored all the red flags. Our brains are wired to go towards what is familiar. I think all humans do this to an extent. My ex had such a loud inner critic, he said to me once “I wish I wasn’t me, I wish I was someone different”.i feel a lot of compassion for him now as I know he is in enormous amounts of pain I also get this-my parents are emotionally avoidant (especially my dad) and that feels very familiar to me. It's much more comfortable for me to not have a ton of affection because it feels foreign (and oddly can almost repulse me if that makes sense). Yeah our brains want the familiar for sure
And Amber yes my friend had a dysfunctional and emotionally abusive childhood and you saying the "feeling needed" thing is SO true-this woman (the only one to give him sparks) is a drug addict and has attempted suicide and I think when he feels needed by someone that deeply it makes him feel chemistry (deeeeep codependency). It's just interesting to see from the other side how the deactivations happen and the thought processes. I often tell him-you realize that you are my ex and I'm these women who want a relationship with you, right? The patterns are just universal
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Post by amber on Feb 4, 2020 2:07:49 GMT
oh hes your ex!! when did you separate? yeah codependant for sure. I have this tendency too as my mother totally parentified me and left me with a strong need to caretake and provide for others. id be curious to know if FA's lives are less organised than say a DA, ie really just unable to commit to anything at all. my ex was in bad financial shape and just lived moment to moment, he told me his childhood was just surviving one bad event to the next, and it seems this is the way his adult life plays out...its like hes stuck in survival mode...
kittygirl did you see this with your ex FA?
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Post by kittygirl on Feb 4, 2020 2:19:21 GMT
Ok no so the FA friend isn't my ex (ha! This is confusing I realize). Frankly, the fact that we are only friends and have only ever been friends is probably why hes willing to be so candid with me about the people he dates (he also has tons, and i mean TONS of sex and one night stands. He says sometimes having anonymous sex is one of the only ways he feels like he can feel a connection with someone-but as soon as the sex becomes regular he gets turned off, starts to deactivate, says he's "bored" etc. It's exceptionally painful for him)
But Amber regarding my ex YES....it's so crazy how similar out experiences are. My FA ex was in constant financial strain (even at times when he made 6 figures for some reason). It's like living on the edge, all the time. Can't get the car fixed, can't follow up with health issues, can't get health insurance etc. It's like living in constant crisis. But you know, after @dualcitizen mentioned the thing about whats familiar, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of that mirrors his childhood. Perhaps with yours too.
I have been really trying to examine this myself-how I am drawn to what I know. And how that surely plays a role in these interactions.
Not to highjack the OP...this thread and some of the comments just really made me think
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Post by amber on Feb 4, 2020 2:30:57 GMT
wow Kittygirl that is strikingly similar! my ex was the same; he was always down to his last $$ (borrowed money off me to pay things like rent a few times), didn't have car insurance despite having an accident and having to pay out big bucks to the other party, not doing basic things like registering the car etc. its like he didn't learn from his hard lessons (I read trauma and neglect actually affects brain growth and parts of the brain that govern executive function,learning, planning). his life was chaos and mayhem, yet if you met him, he came across like the most calm, serene, grounded person ever. not in a million years when I first met him did I think he would live a life like that. funnily enough I read a blog recently by an SE trainer that said that people who are stuck in FREEZE mode of the nervous system can come across eerily serene and calm, when in actual fact they are jus frozen and stuck. my faulty assumption when I first met him was that because he was quiet, calm, and humble that he was a trustworthy and integral. boy did I learn that lesson the hard way...
I think like what you said they are used to having a dysfunctional life.
funny thing is im the total opposite, im so organised to the T, never been in a poor financial position my entire life. I think part of that comes from my OCD around control though lol. they say we attract our opposites... im convinced theres some truth to this!
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Post by tnr9 on Feb 4, 2020 4:16:32 GMT
Understood. But I think telling someone who has an insecure attachment that it takes two is not very helpful. It's because of the deeper unhealed subconscious that makes it hard to leave for many. That's why I was asking for clarification. It's obvious it takes two, but the subconscious isn't operating on the obvious. It is helpful because what happens here is that clearly AP behaviour is seen as “empathic” and “loving”. It gets normalised, where it is not normal at all. It’s a slippery slide that happens within threads over and over again. It’s easy to look at the other party, generally the avoidant, and complain about them. There is some really crap behaviour from all sides, and I won’t sit here and say “Poor thing, he shouldn’t be doing this to you”. There’s no recovery, and no power in that. When I’m saying “it takes two” or “avoidants don’t operate in a vacuum” I’m saying look at yourself. Look at your part in this. Look at your behaviour. Take the focus off them and actually do something that you have control over... the possibility that you can change. I’ll keep saying it. I don’t recognize the blame part at all....perhaps I am just different...perhaps I am not as far along as others....but my flavor of AP goes in a very different direction. My flavor keeps trying to figure B out...and somewhere deep inside of me I think I can and once I do...I will know exactly what to say and what to do to 1. Win him back and 2. Keep him loving me forever....no, this is not an adult perspective, no, this is not secure...but this is where I go...yes, the focus is on “me” because there is this belief that I am responsible for the success or failure of any moment, any conversation, any misunderstanding..and then I think....where does that thought come from...surely it isn’t just my own projection? Surely there were times that it did seem like I did everything “perfectly” and was rewarded or that I did things “imperfectly” and was judged. I think the dance does require 2....and here I am taking responsibility for both partners. I think for some with AP, it is important to see (not blame) the other person’s role...just to understand that it is a dance. |
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Post by tnr9 on Feb 4, 2020 4:24:46 GMT
wow Kittygirl that is strikingly similar! my ex was the same; he was always down to his last $$ (borrowed money off me to pay things like rent a few times), didn't have car insurance despite having an accident and having to pay out big bucks to the other party, not doing basic things like registering the car etc. its like he didn't learn from his hard lessons (I read trauma and neglect actually affects brain growth and parts of the brain that govern executive function,learning, planning). his life was chaos and mayhem, yet if you met him, he came across like the most calm, serene, grounded person ever. not in a million years when I first met him did I think he would live a life like that. funnily enough I read a blog recently by an SE trainer that said that people who are stuck in FREEZE mode of the nervous system can come across eerily serene and calm, when in actual fact they are jus frozen and stuck. my faulty assumption when I first met him was that because he was quiet, calm, and humble that he was a trustworthy and integral. boy did I learn that lesson the hard way... I think like what you said they are used to having a dysfunctional life. funny thing is im the total opposite, im so organised to the T, never been in a poor financial position my entire life. I think part of that comes from my OCD around control though lol. they say we attract our opposites... im convinced theres some truth to this! Interesting....when I met B, he was living with his parent’s for financial reasons. I used to pay for most of the food we ate...but I was more than willing to do that since he drove out to my place and was in a job at the time that did not pay well. He got a much better job recently....about a year ago....and he was going to school to finish college....so his life was definitely on a better track.i don’t know what he is up to since I defriended him(he started seeing a new girl and I knew I was not in a good state to remain friends). Looking back, and based on what he shared, his life has been very chaotic...but I never considered it more chaotic then others. |
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Post by Dualcitizen on Feb 4, 2020 20:37:30 GMT
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Post by kibbins on Feb 5, 2020 5:24:29 GMT
So I was just thinking here and trying to put some things together.. I'm not writing any of this to him, just putting together thoughts
-When me and D split, after a few weeks, he starts going to the gym and it seems like he actually starts having a healthy lifestyle and feeling better.. And every time we reunite after a couple weeks he falls off his gym routine and becomes insanely depressed, even though he is happy that I am in his life, it doesn't seem healthy for him to be with someone, like he starts to be on edge.. like it is causing him trauma? Even if we are doing good this happens.
-He has said that "he has always associated being in a relationship with negativity. feels like he is losing parts of himself, losing friends, and ends up spiraling and going into a dark place". Also about how he doesn't feel like he can have fun with me or any romantic partners, but has tons of fun with his "bros"/guy friends, and loves vacationing with them. Could this be tied to.... -his father vacationed without him (only child) and his mother as a child and was absent, but he went on lots of vacations with his mother who he has said is "scary", verbally abused him, had cancer most of his childhood, and is an extreme avoidant.. And he is parentalizing me like I am his mom? He has said he is scared of women in general. Also one madonna complex thing I read with relation to sex said that these men parentalize their partners as their mothers who abused them which is part of why they are totally unable to have sex with their partners as things get closer. Then of course, there is the fact that he was molested by his babysitter throughout childhood.. someone he trusted.
-So there is the common belief/fact that people choose love that is familiar, but I've also seen it written that our love language is what we didn't get from our opposite sex parent. These contradict each other a bit? The first is more true from my experience.. D has said that he realized "he isn't attracted to nice women, it's sad but he just can't do it". I will admit my personality can be a bit cold and sarcastic. So then here it does seem he is definitely choosing partners who remind him of his mother who he has called "an ice queen". And then acting like his father who would go on vacations with his friends and abandon the family
-He is very goal-oriented with me, his job, etc. I know he hates spending money on me not knowing if we will end up together/married. When I brought up a friend of his who treats his fiancé very well and includes her in everything, he said "they're getting married!!".. And I said so do you think that before he proposed he treated her like you treat me? .... So if he is "doing this" aka our relationship for the prize or result only, aka marriage, then how would he treat me when we were actually married? Is it even possible for a person like this to change their motivation to be process-based, celebrating growth on the journey, and "doing this" bc he actually cares about my feelings too.
Don't mind me, just talking to myself........
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Post by kibbins on Feb 5, 2020 5:35:30 GMT
In relation to me, I find myself not being attracted to this avoidant behavior itself... We do have a really intense bond of perhaps shared trauma which does not equal compatibility but also just connect on a level intellectually that I have never experienced with anyone. He is probably only one of 2 people on this earth who I could truly count on to fully "get" me. But I don't have a history of pursuing these types. Of course I have for the past 2 years here, which I am still trying to wrap my head around as I am examining my part in. Also as far as my own FA-ness, I am extremely disorganized, barely speak to my parents, avoid them on holidays, have a decent amount of friends but am more on the avoidant side with them too. I also have a very difficult time adhering to any sort of routine. D is the opposite in that he is very organized, stable at work, speaks to his parents regularly, plans with his friends regularly........ just strange. Also, as much as I enjoy his company, I do have to "get away" after a bit as I can sense anxiety, although with exes, I was very comfortable with intimacy after I determined they were safe, and communication was good. So.. we just both feel unsafe in this experience. Sad.
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Post by kibbins on Feb 5, 2020 5:43:54 GMT
kibbins , it’s so different being on the opposite end. I, too, had always been Avoidant, but recently have found myself triggered anxious, and doing or at least thinking things APs do here. Yes, it is extremely uncomfortable for me. Why do you think that is so? Did you date emotionally unavailable types before now? |
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