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Post by dullboat123 on Feb 8, 2021 0:27:35 GMT
This is what I'm unsure about, though. Staying with a narcissist after they have started being abusive isn't secure attachment. It is usually an AP, FA, or BPD partner who will match with NPD to begin with... and then they will be gaslit and abused into a fog by the NPD abuse once it begins (which can be gradual as you unfortunately went through or can be a switch flip) and become more and more insecure, until they manage to remove themselves from the NPD sphere and start to recover. The reason I'm asking you about this is because there's probably seeds of AP insecure attachment from before your ex-wife, and if you're working through your issues you may have to be willing to dig further back into your past to get to the roots. You're right that being with a NPD ex wife, it basically planted the seed of AP insecure and it grew over the years. I was secure and confident before but the abuse was over a period of 16 years so it slowly eroded my confidence and sense of security. I do have quite severe childhood trauma which I buried for a long long time. So you're saying I should give up now? That once an FA/DA checked out, there is no way they will ever get back in a relationship with you ever again though they are always dangling the carrot?
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Post by alexandra on Feb 8, 2021 0:34:58 GMT
You're right that being with a NPD ex wife, it basically planted the seed of AP insecure and it grew over the years. I was secure and confident before but the abuse was over a period of 16 years so it slowly eroded my confidence and sense of security. I do have quite severe childhood trauma which I buried for a long long time. I'm glad you are aware and can acknowledge this. You may want to consider the fact that you've been AP since you were a child, which was the result of the trauma. But you weren't aware because it wasn't obviously manifesting until you got involved in romantic relationships. And because emotional abuse and insecure attachment dynamics tend to be normalized in family units in which this happens (insecure attachment often runs in families, for both nature and especially nurture - related reasons), you have zero idea that your mindset is insecure. It just seems normal and all you've ever known. I didn't realize how differently others could think from how I do until I was in my 30s... sort of absurd that I didn't know, but I assumed all humans had an equal need and desire for love and companionship etc. and must process things in a fundamentally similar way (though some endured more trauma, some have better or worse character than others, there are layers of differences of course but I still thought everyone at their core operated similarly, and similar to me since why would I be different when we're all human). Realizing I was always AP and there are different mindsets (which to me personally makes most sense in the secure, AP, DA, FA framework -- in the simpler context of neurotypical people without personality disorders and major mental issues) was a lightbulb for me that helped me relate to other people better and depersonalize responses. Again, the reason I'm bringing this up and think it's important at all is because one of the steps to potentially earning secure can be understanding your narrative for how you got to where you are. Reflecting on it objectively, without projection, putting your own words to describing what happened to you and how you felt, and that narrative becoming a tool to help you start to process the trauma you went through as a child. That doesn't work for everyone and I believe is more a talk therapy tool than say a Somatic Experience therapy tool (the latter, you work with sensations in your body rather than straight talk therapy about the past). But it was an enormous help in my own process. I wasn't able to talk about ANY of this stuff most of my life... too vulnerable, couldn't appear perfect enough to delve into talking about this, made me defensive and insecure immediately... but it turned out I didn't actually have the words for it anyway until I finally was in enough pain to delve into all this.
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Post by alexandra on Feb 8, 2021 0:37:01 GMT
So you're saying I should give up now? That once an FA/DA checked out, there is no way they will ever get back in a relationship with you ever again though they are always dangling the carrot? I'm not saying this because I'm not telling you what to do, I'm just sharing my experiences and opinions. It's your decision, trust yourself. They are always dangling the carrot if you allow it, yes, but what's in your best interest is focusing on yourself. After you turn inward and work on trusting yourself, you'll eventually know what to do.
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Post by dullboat123 on Feb 8, 2021 0:56:15 GMT
So you're saying I should give up now? That once an FA/DA checked out, there is no way they will ever get back in a relationship with you ever again though they are always dangling the carrot? I'm not saying this because I'm not telling you what to do, I'm just sharing my experiences and opinions. It's your decision, trust yourself. They are always dangling the carrot if you allow it, yes, but what's in your best interest is focusing on yourself. After you turn inward and work on trusting yourself, you'll eventually know what to do. Thank you Alexandra. Thing is I just want to know from your experience, are there ever a success story of reconciliation with a DA/FA? Or they all are failures once the DA/FA checked out?
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Post by alexandra on Feb 8, 2021 1:02:49 GMT
I'm not saying this because I'm not telling you what to do, I'm just sharing my experiences and opinions. It's your decision, trust yourself. They are always dangling the carrot if you allow it, yes, but what's in your best interest is focusing on yourself. After you turn inward and work on trusting yourself, you'll eventually know what to do. Thank you Alexandra. Thing is I just want to know from your experience, are there ever a success story of reconciliation with a DA/FA? Or they all are failures once the DA/FA checked out? I've never seen a long-term success story between two insecure attachers who trigger each other unless both were aware of their own issues and already working on earning secure independently (even if not using that language to describe their process).
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Post by dullboat123 on Feb 8, 2021 2:02:04 GMT
Thank you Alexandra. Thing is I just want to know from your experience, are there ever a success story of reconciliation with a DA/FA? Or they all are failures once the DA/FA checked out? I've never seen a long-term success story between two insecure attachers who trigger each other unless both were aware of their own issues and already working on earning secure independently (even if not using that language to describe their process). I guess this is the cue for me to cut my losses and walk away. Today I kept asking her for a definite answer but she isn't giving me one. She just kept saying don't wait for her. I guess its over. However for me, without a clear cut, I can't process it without branding the next person as a rebound. This is so hard.
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Post by alexandra on Feb 8, 2021 2:33:22 GMT
I've never seen a long-term success story between two insecure attachers who trigger each other unless both were aware of their own issues and already working on earning secure independently (even if not using that language to describe their process). I guess this is the cue for me to cut my losses and walk away. Today I kept asking her for a definite answer but she isn't giving me one. She just kept saying don't wait for her. I guess its over. However for me, without a clear cut, I can't process it without branding the next person as a rebound. This is so hard. I refer you back to what anne12 suggested about (internal) deadlines: jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1864/deadlinesIt's important you are doing this from your end to trust yourself and respect your own boundaries, and not in resignation because you're hounding her for an answer that she doesn't know yet (and perhaps are afraid the answer will be negative and are trying to protect yourself from that further pain). You are currently trying to rush her to quell your own anxiety and insecurity. But based on all you've written here, I am concerned you're giving up as a form of protest behavior and out of frustration rather than standing up for yourself and trusting in yourself and your decision. And will panic again in a few days and want to reach out to her once your nervous system is processing the loss. In my opinion, I think that you needing an answer from her so fast when neither of you have actually addressed your protest behavior and breaches of trust shows you that you are not in the same place, do not currently have the same needs, and are not in the same place in regards to compatibility. Which is the real reason for you to walk away, to feel confident in your decision, and then to mourn, focus on yourself (without running to rebound relationships), and try to move forward. If you can start believing in that perspective, you'll likely have the best head start on making some progress on your own issues and happiness.
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Post by dullboat123 on Feb 8, 2021 2:55:33 GMT
I guess this is the cue for me to cut my losses and walk away. Today I kept asking her for a definite answer but she isn't giving me one. She just kept saying don't wait for her. I guess its over. However for me, without a clear cut, I can't process it without branding the next person as a rebound. This is so hard. I refer you back to what anne12 suggested about (internal) deadlines: jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1864/deadlinesIt's important you are doing this from your end to trust yourself and respect your own boundaries, and not in resignation because you're hounding her for an answer that she doesn't know yet (and perhaps are afraid the answer will be negative and are trying to protect yourself from that further pain). You are currently trying to rush her to quell your own anxiety and insecurity. But based on all you've written here, I am concerned you're giving up as a form of protest behavior and out of frustration rather than standing up for yourself and trusting in yourself and your decision. And will panic again in a few days and want to reach out to her once your nervous system is processing the loss. In my opinion, I think that you needing an answer from her so fast when neither of you have actually addressed your protest behavior and breaches of trust shows you that you are not in the same place, do not currently have the same needs, and are not in the same place in regards to compatibility. Which is the real reason for you to walk away, to feel confident in your decision, and then to mourn, focus on yourself (without running to rebound relationships), and try to move forward. If you can start believing in that perspective, you'll likely have the best head start on making some progress on your own issues and happiness. You're right. I am attempting to walk away because I am not getting an answer after pushing her out of sheer frustration. However what is the point of hanging on when I'm just flogging a dead horse? My last message to her is that I will still wait for an answer from her and will not be able to find someone else (though she suggested that) in the meantime as I am still connected to her.
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Post by tnr9 on Feb 8, 2021 14:19:48 GMT
I refer you back to what anne12 suggested about (internal) deadlines: jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1864/deadlinesIt's important you are doing this from your end to trust yourself and respect your own boundaries, and not in resignation because you're hounding her for an answer that she doesn't know yet (and perhaps are afraid the answer will be negative and are trying to protect yourself from that further pain). You are currently trying to rush her to quell your own anxiety and insecurity. But based on all you've written here, I am concerned you're giving up as a form of protest behavior and out of frustration rather than standing up for yourself and trusting in yourself and your decision. And will panic again in a few days and want to reach out to her once your nervous system is processing the loss. In my opinion, I think that you needing an answer from her so fast when neither of you have actually addressed your protest behavior and breaches of trust shows you that you are not in the same place, do not currently have the same needs, and are not in the same place in regards to compatibility. Which is the real reason for you to walk away, to feel confident in your decision, and then to mourn, focus on yourself (without running to rebound relationships), and try to move forward. If you can start believing in that perspective, you'll likely have the best head start on making some progress on your own issues and happiness. You're right. I am attempting to walk away because I am not getting an answer after pushing her out of sheer frustration. However what is the point of hanging on when I'm just flogging a dead horse? My last message to her is that I will still wait for an answer from her and will not be able to find someone else (though she suggested that) in the meantime as I am still connected to her. Right now I would focus on addressing your own attachment issues. What is going on is that you have externalized regulating your nervous system to her. This is why you are pressing her for some concrete answer.....so that you will definitively know one way or another. To earn secure is going to mean regulating your own nervous system, even when someone else triggers you, even when someone else’s is triggered. Look at this as an opportunity to start addressing the core wounds from your childhood while you “wait”. Neither of you is in a space currently to make decisions so the focus will need to be on your own therapy. Alexandra is right.....narcissists tend to choose AP or AP leaning FAs. A secure person would catch on fairly quickly to the narcissist’s tactics and leave. An AP will hang in there hoping things change. Your marriage was a symptom, it was not the source. Have you discussed your childhood with your therapist?
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Post by annieb on Feb 8, 2021 17:04:58 GMT
You're right. I am attempting to walk away because I am not getting an answer after pushing her out of sheer frustration. However what is the point of hanging on when I'm just flogging a dead horse? My last message to her is that I will still wait for an answer from her and will not be able to find someone else (though she suggested that) in the meantime as I am still connected to her. Right now I would focus on addressing your own attachment issues. What is going on is that you have externalized regulating your nervous system to her. This is why you are pressing her for some concrete answer.....so that you will definitively know one way or another. To earn secure is going to mean regulating your own nervous system, even when someone else triggers you, even when someone else’s is triggered. Look at this as an opportunity to start addressing the core wounds from your childhood while you “wait”. Neither of you is in a space currently to make decisions so the focus will need to be on your own therapy. Alexandra is right.....narcissists tend to choose AP or AP leaning FAs. A secure person would catch on fairly quickly to the narcissist’s tactics and leave. An AP will hang in there hoping things change. Your marriage was a symptom, it was not the source. Have you discussed your childhood with your therapist? This is everything I read these threads for:) I need to tattoo this on my forearm.
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Post by Helsbells on Feb 8, 2021 19:07:48 GMT
My 2 pennies worth. Its almost impossible not to lose the trust of a dismissive leaning FA because they trigger such insecurities in there partner its impossible to not do protest behaviour and act out especially when your triggers by there dismissive one foot out the door behaviour. I have never acted the way with anyone like I did with my ex FA it was crazy making. The unaware fa can make you feel so disposable of course your going to react. Please believe me no matter how much you bend to try to accommodate them it always ends up the same.
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Post by Helsbells on Feb 8, 2021 19:27:26 GMT
My 2 pennies worth. Its almost impossible not to lose the trust of a dismissive leaning FA because they trigger such insecurities in there partner its impossible to not do protest behaviour and act out especially when your triggered by there dismissive one foot out the door go and find someone else behaviour. Your always left looking like the bad guy. I have never acted the way with anyone like I did with my ex FA it was crazy making. The unaware fa can make you feel so disposable of course your going to react as it hurts like hell. Believe me no matter how much i bent to try to accommodate my ex it always ended up the same. Nothing changes if nothing changes and any insecure attached person will always end up with the same results.
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Post by dullboat123 on Feb 8, 2021 23:52:47 GMT
My 2 pennies worth. Its almost impossible not to lose the trust of a dismissive leaning FA because they trigger such insecurities in there partner its impossible to not do protest behaviour and act out especially when your triggers by there dismissive one foot out the door behaviour. I have never acted the way with anyone like I did with my ex FA it was crazy making. The unaware fa can make you feel so disposable of course your going to react. Please believe me no matter how much you bend to try to accommodate them it always ends up the same. I understand Helsbells. But the thing is I recognise my protest behaviour of lashing out and start accusing the other party of things that are completely not true. I started to realize how many relationships I wrecked including that with my mum once but we've made up. It is certainly something I need to kick or else it will devastate every relationship I have from here on end. I told my ex yesterday that while she is thinking, I am working on myself and I recognise that from now on, rather than lashing out, I will go "Ok, you did abc, it made me feel xyz. Can we find a better solution?". I think that is so much better than lashing out and causing people to feel offended. My FA ex told me my accusation of her being unreliable cut deep because reliability is one of her top priorities in a relationship.
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Post by tnr9 on Feb 9, 2021 3:35:03 GMT
My 2 pennies worth. Its almost impossible not to lose the trust of a dismissive leaning FA because they trigger such insecurities in there partner its impossible to not do protest behaviour and act out especially when your triggers by there dismissive one foot out the door behaviour. I have never acted the way with anyone like I did with my ex FA it was crazy making. The unaware fa can make you feel so disposable of course your going to react. Please believe me no matter how much you bend to try to accommodate them it always ends up the same. I understand Helsbells. But the thing is I recognise my protest behaviour of lashing out and start accusing the other party of things that are completely not true. I started to realize how many relationships I wrecked including that with my mum once but we've made up. It is certainly something I need to kick or else it will devastate every relationship I have from here on end. I told my ex yesterday that while she is thinking, I am working on myself and I recognise that from now on, rather than lashing out, I will go "Ok, you did abc, it made me feel xyz. Can we find a better solution?". I think that is so much better than lashing out and causing people to feel offended. My FA ex told me my accusation of her being unreliable cut deep because reliability is one of her top priorities in a relationship. So...I would like to suggest a slight change.....Because starting off with “you did” puts the other person on the defensive. The best way is to start with I statements because in all fairness.....it isn’t her action that you are trying to address but your reaction. I feel x when i notice you doing y.
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Post by dullboat123 on Feb 9, 2021 3:50:44 GMT
So...I would like to suggest a slight change.....Because starting off with “you did” puts the other person on the defensive. The best way is to start with I statements because in all fairness.....it isn’t her action that you are trying to address but your reaction. I feel x when i notice you doing y. Hmm....good one. I shall try that. That is IF I can arrest my protest behaviour before it wrecks everything.
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