|
Post by dullboat123 on May 14, 2021 0:19:09 GMT
No doubt, I'm sure you've got it from here, take care! Thank you Introvert. I'm not angry at you or trying to insult you. I am just saying it like it is. I just do not agree that the abusive behaviours from avoidants can be excused or downplayed as if its not their fault. They're adults and I believe oftentimes their behaviours are the root of a lot of physical domestic abuse when they wanted distance but their partners continuously reach out for assurance or to resolve an issue. I think Jeb also indicated that the avoidant's passive-aggressive stance can escalate to physical when they are not left alone. I have seen what my ex can do physically when I seemingly pushed her too far with my reaching out for assurance. That is not acceptable in any way, shape or form.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 14, 2021 0:25:46 GMT
dullboat123, if you can keep yourself from repeating the pattern of becoming a victim, you're winning. Best to you, really. I'm sure you will do what you feel you need to do and may the outcome be better next time. Best to you!
|
|
|
Post by dullboat123 on May 14, 2021 0:39:34 GMT
dullboat123 , if you can keep yourself from repeating the pattern of becoming a victim, you're winning. Best to you, really. I'm sure you will do what you feel you need to do and may the outcome be better next time. Best to you! I'm sure...well I hope I don't make the same mistake again though at my age, chances of meeting another avoidant in the dating pool is higher as researched showed. However now that I am better equipped to spot the red flags. One thing I'll like to add though, is that normally avoidants or people with narcissistic traits tend to love bomb their targets. It happened to me with my ex wife too. Then, they SLOWLY show their true colors, they're masters of manipulation and masters of masks so the pain felt isn't stark or overnight. Its normalized pain. Almost like boiling a frog. I'm like the frog both times whereby by the time I realized it, water is already boiling. I guess the main takeaway if anyone reading my thread in the future, is that when an avoidant checks out, which they will, there isn't much hope of getting them back. Despite their stringing along and overwhelmingly convincing promises, you're already being reduced to nothing but the enemy in their subconscious. Unless the avoidant is self aware and WORKING ON THEMSELVES TO IMPROVE their attachment styles, there is really not much hope and you are just wasting your precious time and resources. You've been warned.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 14, 2021 1:02:23 GMT
I completely agree with you there dullboat123. Once an avoidant checks out, LET THEM GO and take care of you. Don't chase. Heck, don't take them back. They aren't ready for you, and don't make that about you. Don't make it your business. You are not for them and they are not for you. It's that simple. They will figure it out or not. That is their choice and their business. Your business is to know yourself and what makes you tick so you can have the life and relationships you want. As I always say- the outcome is the proof of your capacity to choose well or not. That's all you have control over. The rest of the control you give away to someone else if you you pursue someone who isn't showing up consistently.
|
|
|
Post by dullboat123 on May 14, 2021 1:57:42 GMT
I completely agree with you there dullboat123 . Once an avoidant checks out, LET THEM GO and take care of you. Don't chase. Heck, don't take them back. They aren't ready for you, and don't make that about you. Don't make it your business. You are not for them and they are not for you. It's that simple. They will figure it out or not. That is their choice and their business. Your business is to know yourself and what makes you tick so you can have the life and relationships you want. As I always say- the outcome is the proof of your capacity to choose well or not. That's all you have control over. The rest of the control you give away to someone else if you you pursue someone who isn't showing up consistently. Its not just that. I think people need to be aware of this too. As this forum showed, many many people fell into this trap because in the beginning, the avoidant made such grand gestures and massive promises to draw their victims in and when it all ends, which oftentimes is abruptly, the victim is left confused, shocked and completely blindsided. Then begins the push-pull dance whereby the avoidant will stick around to get their needs met (sometimes unconsciously) and the victim tries so so so so so hard to get back on track to the good times. Sometimes this can go on for years and the victim finally realized they did not leave square one at all ever since the day the avoidant checked out. One last thing, my ex is the Queen of Boundaries. She's a feminist. She put up so many boundaries that I simply cannot keep up and find myself stepping on eggshells around her. The boundaries are so rigid it makes life so hard. The reason for the break up is that she accused me of not respecting her this particular boundary of texting her too much. But the thing is the day I texted her too much is because she literally "disappeared". The inconsistency is just too much. So much so that it seems she's bipolar. Anyone who cares would've done the same thing as me. So my question is, are avoidants very big on boundaries, so much so that it makes life hard?
|
|
|
Post by annieb on May 14, 2021 13:05:20 GMT
I think I maybe able to help. I’ve fallen into the avoidant trap several times in my life and stayed in terrible relationships for years, but after I started therapy I was able to see that I fell for the lovebombing every time because I needed that external validation, and once that was taken away as it inevitably will with an avoidant, I spent the rest of the relationship trying to get it back. I’ve met three other avoidant men since I stopped dating and trying to be in a relationship a couple years ago and started therapy and I was able to cycle through and out of the validation trap much faster. I see it for what it is now. I can see the progression and it doesn’t phase me and the avoidant leaves me much faster. We are talking a few dates, once they deactivate I don’t chase them anymore and they disappear into the abyss. As an avoidant myself I’ve had several dating situations in the past where the partner was vacillating betweeen anxious and avoidant and I couldn't get away fast enough from them. Of course you’re a macho army guy, but therapy is there for you learn to love yourself so that you don’t seek the external validation. Because you can be all kinds of superachiever on the outside in the end only your self validation and love is what will stabilize you and prevent you from getting into devastating relationships. Because at this point that should be your goal. Going forward.
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on May 14, 2021 14:41:39 GMT
I have been on both sides of this....as the anxious partner who texts or calls “too much” because I was in a state of overwhelm or fear and wantedvalidation from my partner that I was “ok”, and as the avoidant friend who simply wants to not feel responsible to regulate someone else’s nervous system. I am not sure what the goal of your question is to be honest...it seems to me you are still focused on her and avoidants in general instead of speaking to how you plan to move forward.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 14, 2021 15:02:02 GMT
Do avoidants have rigid boundaries such that it makes life difficult... wrong question.
Try: Do I have no boundaries such that it makes life difficult?
Answer: Yes, you have no boundaries and it makes your life difficult.
The answer is always inside and yet, as you have no boundaries and live in a reactionary way controlled by others, you will seek to find everything outside of yourself when the going gets tough... including validation, love, soothing, and even a place to put the blame.
Your own boundary problem would be an excellent place to start.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 14, 2021 16:51:26 GMT
I completely agree with you there dullboat123 . Once an avoidant checks out, LET THEM GO and take care of you. Don't chase. Heck, don't take them back. They aren't ready for you, and don't make that about you. Don't make it your business. You are not for them and they are not for you. It's that simple. They will figure it out or not. That is their choice and their business. Your business is to know yourself and what makes you tick so you can have the life and relationships you want. As I always say- the outcome is the proof of your capacity to choose well or not. That's all you have control over. The rest of the control you give away to someone else if you you pursue someone who isn't showing up consistently. Its not just that. I think people need to be aware of this too. As this forum showed, many many people fell into this trap because in the beginning, the avoidant made such grand gestures and massive promises to draw their victims in and when it all ends, which oftentimes is abruptly, the victim is left confused, shocked and completely blindsided. Then begins the push-pull dance whereby the avoidant will stick around to get their needs met (sometimes unconsciously) and the victim tries so so so so so hard to get back on track to the good times. Sometimes this can go on for years and the victim finally realized they did not leave square one at all ever since the day the avoidant checked out. One last thing, my ex is the Queen of Boundaries. She's a feminist. She put up so many boundaries that I simply cannot keep up and find myself stepping on eggshells around her. The boundaries are so rigid it makes life so hard. The reason for the break up is that she accused me of not respecting her this particular boundary of texting her too much. But the thing is the day I texted her too much is because she literally "disappeared". The inconsistency is just too much. So much so that it seems she's bipolar. Anyone who cares would've done the same thing as me. So my question is, are avoidants very big on boundaries, so much so that it makes life hard? While this is your experience, it is not the experience of all people. You were also entrapped by your own issues here as well. The real experts in the field of attachment teach insecurely attached people how to overcome their own barriers to intimacy. Even Jeb teaches this. He has tons of articles which outline the difficulties of each type as well as the solutions. Do you think all these researchers, authors, mental health experts would waste their time going on about this if it were as simple as what you've reduced it to? I think if it were as you say, that's ALL anyone would have to say about it. Maybe it would be helpful if you get outside of your fixed ideas about all this. There are really informative (and compassionate even) threads in the General forum to help you broaden your view. You're taking a VERY extreme view of both sides of this- you as wholesome, love-capable Mr. Relationship and her as abusive, garbage avoidant. The truth is, how you experience the anxious/avoidant trap has everything to do with your own level of dysfunction in it. TRIGGER WARNING: I'm an avoidant in a relationship that entails none of the extreme issues you have described here. That's because the world, including the world of attachment , is not black and white (that world view is a symptom of your dysfunction by the way. Look at your thread and notice the vacillation between idealization and devaluation. Your own. She's alternately this loving woman who treats you better than your own mother, and a cold hard calculating monster.) I think it's called splitting, but I'm not an expert. Worth checking out. IF you move up the ladder in your own dysfunctional relationship style, you may experience issues related to your insecure conditioning without it being this huge, devastating drama. That's what goes on between my boyfriend and I. We experience issues related to our attachment styles. We don't live in this upside down world of emotional abuse flying both ways. All these attachment issues are relative to the emotional health of the people involved. I think you mentioned that your therapist is married to an avoidant. He gave you advice on how to approach things and it may not have been helpful to you, but there at least is an example of a person not in crisis with an avoidant. If you think that anyone who cares would behave as you do, you are dead wrong in a few of ways. First, your idea of caring looks a lot like desperation. Second, caring about another and the relationship doesn't necessarily mean holding on to it at all costs. If it's costing you that much it might be less like caring and more like attachment sickness. Third, an avoidants can care much and respond to that vulnerability by doing the opposite, which is retreating to avoid confusion and pain. It's way more complicated than saying that anyone who cares would do what you did. This kind of justification in you seems to keep you stuck. Question yourself and you might really make some progress. Note I said question yourself, not flagellate yourself in a shame based reaction to challenging viewpoints. The people here responding to you (avoidants, did you notice?) have all had to do the same. You're not above that just because you are a trainer military officer. Really.
|
|
|
Post by dullboat123 on May 15, 2021 5:39:54 GMT
Its not just that. I think people need to be aware of this too. As this forum showed, many many people fell into this trap because in the beginning, the avoidant made such grand gestures and massive promises to draw their victims in and when it all ends, which oftentimes is abruptly, the victim is left confused, shocked and completely blindsided. Then begins the push-pull dance whereby the avoidant will stick around to get their needs met (sometimes unconsciously) and the victim tries so so so so so hard to get back on track to the good times. Sometimes this can go on for years and the victim finally realized they did not leave square one at all ever since the day the avoidant checked out. One last thing, my ex is the Queen of Boundaries. She's a feminist. She put up so many boundaries that I simply cannot keep up and find myself stepping on eggshells around her. The boundaries are so rigid it makes life so hard. The reason for the break up is that she accused me of not respecting her this particular boundary of texting her too much. But the thing is the day I texted her too much is because she literally "disappeared". The inconsistency is just too much. So much so that it seems she's bipolar. Anyone who cares would've done the same thing as me. So my question is, are avoidants very big on boundaries, so much so that it makes life hard? While this is your experience, it is not the experience of all people. You were also entrapped by your own issues here as well. The real experts in the field of attachment teach insecurely attached people how to overcome their own barriers to intimacy. Even Jeb teaches this. He has tons of articles which outline the difficulties of each type as well as the solutions. Do you think all these researchers, authors, mental health experts would waste their time going on about this if it were as simple as what you've reduced it to? I think if it were as you say, that's ALL anyone would have to say about it. Maybe it would be helpful if you get outside of your fixed ideas about all this. There are really informative (and compassionate even) threads in the General forum to help you broaden your view. You're taking a VERY extreme view of both sides of this- you as wholesome, love-capable Mr. Relationship and her as abusive, garbage avoidant. The truth is, how you experience the anxious/avoidant trap has everything to do with your own level of dysfunction in it. TRIGGER WARNING: I'm an avoidant in a relationship that entails none of the extreme issues you have described here. That's because the world, including the world of attachment , is not black and white (that world view is a symptom of your dysfunction by the way. Look at your thread and notice the vacillation between idealization and devaluation. Your own. She's alternately this loving woman who treats you better than your own mother, and a cold hard calculating monster.) I think it's called splitting, but I'm not an expert. Worth checking out. IF you move up the ladder in your own dysfunctional relationship style, you may experience issues related to your insecure conditioning without it being this huge, devastating drama. That's what goes on between my boyfriend and I. We experience issues related to our attachment styles. We don't live in this upside down world of emotional abuse flying both ways. All these attachment issues are relative to the emotional health of the people involved. I think you mentioned that your therapist is married to an avoidant. He gave you advice on how to approach things and it may not have been helpful to you, but there at least is an example of a person not in crisis with an avoidant. If you think that anyone who cares would behave as you do, you are dead wrong in a few of ways. First, your idea of caring looks a lot like desperation. Second, caring about another and the relationship doesn't necessarily mean holding on to it at all costs. If it's costing you that much it might be less like caring and more like attachment sickness. Third, an avoidants can care much and respond to that vulnerability by doing the opposite, which is retreating to avoid confusion and pain. It's way more complicated than saying that anyone who cares would do what you did. This kind of justification in you seems to keep you stuck. Question yourself and you might really make some progress. Note I said question yourself, not flagellate yourself in a shame based reaction to challenging viewpoints. The people here responding to you (avoidants, did you notice?) have all had to do the same. You're not above that just because you are a trainer military officer. Really. So she's been mentally, physically and financially abusive to me where I've showed nothing but empathy and patience for so long, in the end, I'm the one who needs help. Ok then. Goodbye.
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on May 15, 2021 8:57:49 GMT
While this is your experience, it is not the experience of all people. You were also entrapped by your own issues here as well. The real experts in the field of attachment teach insecurely attached people how to overcome their own barriers to intimacy. Even Jeb teaches this. He has tons of articles which outline the difficulties of each type as well as the solutions. Do you think all these researchers, authors, mental health experts would waste their time going on about this if it were as simple as what you've reduced it to? I think if it were as you say, that's ALL anyone would have to say about it. Maybe it would be helpful if you get outside of your fixed ideas about all this. There are really informative (and compassionate even) threads in the General forum to help you broaden your view. You're taking a VERY extreme view of both sides of this- you as wholesome, love-capable Mr. Relationship and her as abusive, garbage avoidant. The truth is, how you experience the anxious/avoidant trap has everything to do with your own level of dysfunction in it. TRIGGER WARNING: I'm an avoidant in a relationship that entails none of the extreme issues you have described here. That's because the world, including the world of attachment , is not black and white (that world view is a symptom of your dysfunction by the way. Look at your thread and notice the vacillation between idealization and devaluation. Your own. She's alternately this loving woman who treats you better than your own mother, and a cold hard calculating monster.) I think it's called splitting, but I'm not an expert. Worth checking out. IF you move up the ladder in your own dysfunctional relationship style, you may experience issues related to your insecure conditioning without it being this huge, devastating drama. That's what goes on between my boyfriend and I. We experience issues related to our attachment styles. We don't live in this upside down world of emotional abuse flying both ways. All these attachment issues are relative to the emotional health of the people involved. I think you mentioned that your therapist is married to an avoidant. He gave you advice on how to approach things and it may not have been helpful to you, but there at least is an example of a person not in crisis with an avoidant. If you think that anyone who cares would behave as you do, you are dead wrong in a few of ways. First, your idea of caring looks a lot like desperation. Second, caring about another and the relationship doesn't necessarily mean holding on to it at all costs. If it's costing you that much it might be less like caring and more like attachment sickness. Third, an avoidants can care much and respond to that vulnerability by doing the opposite, which is retreating to avoid confusion and pain. It's way more complicated than saying that anyone who cares would do what you did. This kind of justification in you seems to keep you stuck. Question yourself and you might really make some progress. Note I said question yourself, not flagellate yourself in a shame based reaction to challenging viewpoints. The people here responding to you (avoidants, did you notice?) have all had to do the same. You're not above that just because you are a trainer military officer. Really. So she's been mentally, physically and financially abusive to me where I've showed nothing but empathy and patience for so long, in the end, I'm the one who needs help. Ok then. Goodbye. I think the truth is that both of you suffered trauma at a young age. Whether she seeks any help is up to her...but I hope that you can get healing so that you can move forward.
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on May 15, 2021 8:59:59 GMT
I'm sorry this happened but I have to admit, I'm confused. If you received a lot of abuse at the hands of this recent ex, and you have been victimized, then you are hurt and angry and must process and heal the pain to move forward. So why would it be a bad thing to seek help from a professional after receiving abuse you didn't deserve? Let's say, the same thing happened to you but instead of emotional abuse, she broke your arm. Even though it was not your fault your arm got broken, it still happened. You'd certainly go to a doctor for medical attention instead of stating since it wasn't your fault someone else should go see a doctor. That does not help the fact your arm is still dangling, painfully broken, in need of being reset. It's the same thing to need professional guidance after receiving emotional abuse, and it's nothing to be ashamed of. We all occasionally need some help to heal. Your last therapist wasn't good for you, but they are not all the same. Good luck in continuing to move forward.
|
|
|
Post by dullboat123 on May 16, 2021 22:59:45 GMT
I'm sorry this happened but I have to admit, I'm confused. If you received a lot of abuse at the hands of this recent ex, and you have been victimized, then you are hurt and angry and must process and heal the pain to move forward. So why would it be a bad thing to seek help from a professional after receiving abuse you didn't deserve? Let's say, the same thing happened to you but instead of emotional abuse, she broke your arm. Even though it was not your fault your arm got broken, it still happened. You'd certainly go to a doctor for medical attention instead of stating since it wasn't your fault someone else should go see a doctor. That does not help the fact your arm is still dangling, painfully broken, in need of being reset. It's the same thing to need professional guidance after receiving emotional abuse, and it's nothing to be ashamed of. We all occasionally need some help to heal. Your last therapist wasn't good for you, but they are not all the same. Good luck in continuing to move forward. Hi Alexandra, perhaps you did not fully understand the situation. I understood your "broken arm" reference but the thing is in this case, I was MADE to think that my arm is broken. Moreover, I've been receiving therapy but it is still never good enough for her. That is because she is PROJECTING her deteriorating mental health on me. I am making progress and even she said so herself. However the goalpost is moved again and again. Almost like she's taking an inch but next is expecting a mile. Hence when I finally realized I'm being gaslighted to an inch of my life, I'm pissed because she turned around and accused me of manipulating her and making her feel crazy where I literally did nothing but reached out to her asking how she is since she literally fell off the face of the earth!
|
|
|
Post by dullboat123 on May 16, 2021 23:00:41 GMT
I think the truth is that both of you suffered trauma at a young age. Whether she seeks any help is up to her...but I hope that you can get healing so that you can move forward. True. Whether she seeks help or not is totally up to her. But projecting her mental illness on me is just wrong.
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on May 17, 2021 13:22:08 GMT
I think the truth is that both of you suffered trauma at a young age. Whether she seeks any help is up to her...but I hope that you can get healing so that you can move forward. True. Whether she seeks help or not is totally up to her. But projecting her mental illness on me is just wrong. This is what confuses me though...this is the second woman you have been with who has gaslighted you. Aren’t you curious to explore why you are attracted to these women? When I was with the NPD that I “dated” for 3 years (he broke up with me 3 times and then after begging and pleading took me back)....my therapist was crucial at pointing out where he was gaslighting me. Who knows if I would have had the courage to stop the carousel and burn up my NPD partner card if it was not for her.
|
|