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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2023 4:47:15 GMT
Ok, cherrycola and sunrisequest , this is intriguing. Part of the avoidant approach to interaction is to offer practical advice or suggestions without adequate emotional empathy (although empathy is often present, quite present inside of me, it's not what I have historically led with in interaction 😞 ). But its coming from a different place- at least from what I'm understanding here (a very different place). It's not about fixing or rescuing, it doesn't feel like there's a personal stake in it. And, I think there is way less volume. It's just what we have to offer, and how we relate. More skilled at solving problems than being emotionally "all there". I've grown a lot and gotten much more able to express my empathy, to be vulnerable inside myself and authentically relate to others. My relationship with my kids is where I have seen all this the most. One time my daughter called me out on it, and it was so painful. She thought I didn't care about her heart or her feelings in a certain crisis, but I did. I ached for her, and I was scared. But the strongest and most helpful thing I felt I could do is offer the practical step by step of what's next... and I wasn't wrong, really. It had to be done. And quickly. But what she needed was for me to support her emotionally. It was just so painful for us both, I felt on one hand very competent to handle the crisis and also very inadequate for what she needed. In the end I just explained myself and told her that I do care so much, and I was sorry I didn't understand what she needed. She's more the anxious type. We have different strengths. I'm learning! So is she. Also, its a parent/young adult child relationship, so helping and guiding is appropriate to a certain extent. Its not quite the same as a peer relarionahip although boindaries are still really important. Now, my best friend is also avoidant, and we vibe really well. We have a very harmonious relationship, and are both really comfortable with the way we exchange support and advice. I got nervous at one point that maybe I suck, but she said the reason she talks to me is because I can see things she doesn't see and she thinks I give great advice. But maybe that wouldn't go over well with another person, ha. There are reasons we pick the friends that we do, and this is healthy for us. But I'm also kind of having an aha moment about my partner. Maybe he is a fixer. I hadn't thought of it before, until I'm reading these descriptions from the insider's perspective. He can't seem to resist kind of micromanaging some aspects of things I'm doing? It can really rub me the wrong way, it's more than a suggestion he seems so invested in me doing something his way, like I couldn't possibly get the right result from doing it my way. I've talked to him about it, but it's almost like a compulsion.. just in this one area. It happens to be something he's really good at, and I will be too, I am just going to get there my own way. All I'm saying is he might have these kinds of feelings that you're describing. I'm going to contemplate that. It's not a huge deal. But it does get on my nerves, it's an area of tension. I never really thought of it as a manifestation of some kind of codependency but maybe it is. Anyway, it's really interesting, this whole topic. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2023 5:24:23 GMT
Yeesh, I can look back at a situationship I had with a narcissist (he was diagnosed, I learned along the path of destruction) and I definitely had a rescuer mentality. I felt deep empathy for his isolation and aloneness. His pain. I was working on my attachment stuff but this was years ago, I was new at it. So as a narcissist he was quite a ways down the spectrum of dysfunction from me, but there are overlaps with cluster b disorders and attachment insecurity, as we all know. And many different kinds of narcs... from grandiose to vulnerable, somatic, cerebral... he was my dad! I have FA attachment with my father, absent most of my life and emotionally unavailable to this day although I have reconciled my relationship with him. I feel deep sorrow for my dad's deep isolation. At that time, I had not reconciled this relationship with my dad and come to acceptance of him, and that I can't make our relationship be what I so craved. This man triggered the FA element in me. (I'm DA with my mother, who passed). It's not my typical pattern, but he brought out anxious in me. Oddly, that relationship catapulted me in the right direction of healing, because it was more confusing and frustrating than anything, ever. I think a narcissist can turn anyone anxious actually. But I digress. I wanted him to come along with me on the healing trajectory I was on, and I invested in ways you describe, but at that time I was involved in a spiritual pursuit that heavily encouraged that kind of mentality! I thought I was being a good Practitioner of my philosophy and spiritual understanding. Looking back, it was the worst approach I could have taken to life but I was searching so hard for a way out of my own isolation, I didn't know better. This shit is tricky. seeking, you're doing good to try to unpack all this stuff. It can be so confusing. Also weird... how we can flip into something like an alter-ego if someone comes along to push a button we didn't know was sticking straight out of our forehead. I'm thankful for this thread that can illuminate the many facets of this. One thing that anxious have over avoidants is you guys seem to be able to have such clarity about what's going on inside you. I have to squint through the haze a lot especially when it comes to pre-awareness situations. |
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Post by sunrisequest on Dec 14, 2023 10:31:15 GMT
Seeing it unpacked here definitely makes it look and seem a bit complicated! I can see where you're coming from with the fixing tendencies that come as a result of avoidant tactics. I can think of a few avoidant people I know who definitely use 'fixing' as a way of relating, but although I still find it irritating, I didn't feel that sense of pressure. It's almost like they're telling me what they think I should do, but don't care what I do either way... they're not tied to the outcome. My ex husband was like this actually. Just leaned towards solutions in his communication, but never cared if I did or didn't do what he was suggesting. He got better at listening if I just told him upfront I needed an ear and no solutions.
I think codependency can manifest in anxious as well as avoidant attachers, but you can see why the anxious types are more prone to it. And obviously it's on a spectrum like all of these things, but the vast majority of us have at least a few codependent traits - according to the stats anyway. But I think it's this lack of a sense of self, enmeshing yourself with other people or things, and an imbalance in the relationship to keep a level of control that takes it into codependency. If you feel really annoyed with someone for not taking your advice, or you're putting so much effort into helping that you feel resentment, then something is off. My sister is this way, she literally needs for me to hear and accept her solutions, otherwise she takes a hit in her self confidence and can become very upset. As a result, I very rarely confide in things that require a solution... cos I know she just can't help it!
I think what you mentioned about your situationship with your NPD ex is a very common story - these situations do trigger codependent type behaviours, because there is often an extremely charming or deeply attentive side to someone with a cluster B type personality, which is very attractive to our unhealed wounds... and you see their goodness and their pain, so you try and help them, thinking that if they get better, they will stay with you and you'll get more of their charm and attention but less of the drama and pain... but you and a zillion other people including me have learned it doesn't work that way. But yeah, that's where I also saw some of my co-dependent traits, in that type of scenario.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2023 12:39:02 GMT
So it seems that for the anxious anxious fixer, the survival need to be connected drives the behavior, because the enmeshment avoids abandonment.
But for the avoidant, the need to survive by securing basic stability drives the behavior, separate from connection. For me, its been "Red Alert! The tide of emotion coming at me is destabilizing, how to stabilize? How to stop this intensity?" For me, solving every problem that CAN be solved through action is critical to coping with deep survival fears. My sense of security hasn't come from belonging, it's come from practical survival and maintaining a basic sense of things being manageable and under control, crisis destabilizes that. That's why avoidants get wrapped up in things other than relationship and connection, because our sense of self and security doesn't come from there. In fact, our sense of self is protected by remaining apart, and tending to that deep sense of being the one who has to make sure we are OK, no matter what happens, we just need to be ok and make sure our boat doesn't sink.
For the anxious, the fixing provides ongoing contact and a platform to engage.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2023 13:03:30 GMT
I would say that what I wrote above applies to attachment figures for me, but that's not the dynamic operating with my friend. With her, its a deep camaraderie. We relate to each other's preference for moving into solutions, and both feel capable to do so as individuals, so we are kind of cheerleaders for each other. Although it's been really awesome to grow emotionally together over the years, and we have learned the empathy and emotional presence piece.
I think that the fixee/fixer dynamic can create an enduring connection for the anxious, but if an avoidant is faced with too much instability without solutions coming from the other person, the relationship will end. I've seen codependents stick it out endlessly with addicts or alcoholics or some other problematic behavior, and it absolutely stuns me how they seem energized by it- I guess because on some level it does regulate them. It's dysregulating for avoidants... the regulation comes from making it stop.
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Post by iz42 on Dec 15, 2023 1:51:26 GMT
I've heard codependency talked about even more broadly -- not necessarily in terms of fixing but in terms of managing another person's experience or emotions in order to feel safe/connected. Maybe this isn't a common definition. But it leads to enmeshment in the same way. As someone who has been anxiously attached I have done this in many relationships/friendships and it usually does look like "helping" or over giving. My anxiously attached mom overprotected me through helping and I learned it from her. In friendships I've been on the other side of this where friends cross boundaries to "help" me and it's awful -- it feels disrespectful. As I've worked on myself I have had to let people make their own decisions even if they are self-destructive ones.
My DA partner has engaged with me in codependent ways too. Usually it is more about managing my emotional experience or my view of him. In the past if he knew I was upset with him, he would try to fix things by invalidating my feelings or trying to make my emotions go away altogether. It felt very weird and invasive. He has been working on this and it's getting better over time, but I think it's interesting how codependence can show up in this way. It seems like he has viewed my negative emotions as a threat just by their existence.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2023 4:11:59 GMT
I've heard codependency talked about even more broadly -- not necessarily in terms of fixing but in terms of managing another person's experience or emotions in order to feel safe/connected. Maybe this isn't a common definition. But it leads to enmeshment in the same way. As someone who has been anxiously attached I have done this in many relationships/friendships and it usually does look like "helping" or over giving. My anxiously attached mom overprotected me through helping and I learned it from her. In friendships I've been on the other side of this where friends cross boundaries to "help" me and it's awful -- it feels disrespectful. As I've worked on myself I have had to let people make their own decisions even if they are self-destructive ones. My DA partner has engaged with me in codependent ways too. Usually it is more about managing my emotional experience or my view of him. In the past if he knew I was upset with him, he would try to fix things by invalidating my feelings or trying to make my emotions go away altogether. It felt very weird and invasive. He has been working on this and it's getting better over time, but I think it's interesting how codependence can show up in this way. It seems like he has viewed my negative emotions as a threat just by their existence. I was going to say the same thing, codependency shows up in several ways. And in both directions it's about managing the other in order to regulate the self. All of it insecure and unhealthy. It is good to have moved a long way from that being the only way I knew how to be. What a journey. |
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Post by seeking on Dec 28, 2023 13:47:09 GMT
Yep, this is it. It's setting relationships up so that giving and receiving are the main functions, rather than being, witnessing and sharing etc. It's like 'giving' is your currency of value, which is a co-dependent trait... But giving so heavily is often designed to control the relationship, so that you don't lose it, so that people need you, so they see value in you and don't leave you. This is really heart-breaking. I was with my family over Christmas and each year it's like something different - the year that I am fighting everyone, the year that I absorb everyone's stuff. This year, I started dissociating the day before. I just couldn't get off the facebook scrolling hamster wheel. The numbness was the next morning when my daughter didn't like any of her presents. And had a weird trauma response (she and I have talked at length about it and still not sure what that was about). While I did relatively okay with it - I let her have her feelings, didn't try to fix, and stood back (didn't insert my own hurt or disappointment or bewilderment). I got her everything on her list that she wanted. And what I didn't get her, I delegated to others. I've told her it's against my own value system. And that I hate the consumeristic part about Christmas (even though the things she wanted were really sweet and simple - like a book nook, embroidering, etc). But it was an instance where my giving actually seemed to upset someone not make them happy and it was a weird void that I felt. Christmas morning, my dad texted me to get to his house early. I was already scrambling and holding a lot (with my daughter's reaction). I fought to say nothing or lash out at him. Last year, he shouted at me when I got to his house ON TIME and didn't read his mind that he wanted us early and I didn't have it in me to fight that morning, but I said something to assert myself "Have mercy on the single parents" --and "If I don't get there by x time, go without us. I'll drive myself." But we did get there 45 mins early after racing around, and he wasn't ready. So my daughter and I stood around for 45 minutes. While Christmas was largely uneventful otherwise (in a good way)- kind of as good as you can get for my family and probably many families - good food, cheer, conversations, etc. I realized something pretty profound -- not something I didn't already know, but just the gravity of it. No one really listens. No one sees you. There's barely room for two-way conversation. Everyone talks over one another. It's chaotic. Even my sister might say to the table, daughter was in a play, and no one asks about it - they just keep talking at each other, interrupting, etc. I felt the profound loneliness I carried with me as a child -- to really not be known or seen. Lately I've been reading and watching some homeschool stuff with my daughter-- and a few times, people said different variations of - the greatest joy in life is to have discussions with friends who care about these things (they were talking about philosophy and beauty and things that feed the soul). My biggest romantic fantasy is that someone would see me or hear me and want to get to know me more. We've been watching episodes of Signed Sealed and Delivered and I realized the heartwarming appeal of the 4 main characters are that they are always together going through intense things together and witnessing each other in the process -- when someone is going through something or experiencing a joy (I won't give any spoiler alerts), they are all there - present for that other person. They literally have long shots of all of their facial expressions looking with love or care or admiration or sadness for/with the other person. I don't know that that actually really exists, but I think it's a thing - like a very human thing that while I can't speak for everyone, I personally long for in my heart - to witness and be witnessed. And right now I think the giving is half the equation. Yes, it's a way to avoid my own pain (perhaps) (I'm really not sure) but I think it's an attempt to say -- I'll be here for you, I'll witness you, I'll help you -- and while I don't expect that back, I guess there is a part that maybe wants to be indispensable. I don't know. All I know is that it comes natural to me. I'm not thinking about it. I just do it. Yesterday I had someone I work with tell me their daughter is in crises - within minutes, I reached out to resources and basically had all the answers they need and presented them with a menu of options. It's what I actually do for a living. The friend I had asked something of in all of it (she's a psychiatric nurse and had info that was helpful), wrote after things settled down "You're such a giver" - she put hearts with it. But I just sat there with it. The contrast of her seeing me as a giver and me not even noticing that. It's like drinking a glass of water because you're thirsty and someone saying, "You're such a water-drinker" or something. It occurred to me like Oh, there are NOT givers? I wouldn't even know where to begin with that. Because of the nature of my work, if I know what can help this person, why wouldn't I take 15-20 minutes to help them? That's my specialty. I don't go and move furniture with people. I won't help them if they want to stay stuck. I don't offer to feed the hungry or volunteer at my church. I'm not ALWAYS giving. A couple of clients messaged me over the holiday and I wrote back simple succinct answers (in most cases). I have been lately working on this sense of pulling my energy back and keeping it for myself. I realized that if I'm around people, my energy and awareness will immediately go over to them - esp my daughter, family members, etc. Even in a coffee shop. And I've been experiencing just being in my lane. My daughter was really irritable the other day and I realized I was all up in her grill (silently) but just having reactions to it, and I suddenly pulled way back and separated from her "stuff" and just went back to me. This is new and important, I think. Anyway, thanks for listening. Not sure all of what I'm really saying here but just helps to write it. |
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Post by seeking on Dec 28, 2023 13:56:58 GMT
I have a few friends who I see as co-dependent 'givers' and it can be very uncomfortable for me, because while I do need and want support from friends, if I sense I'm being 'fixed' or 'rescued', it feels very oppressive and disempowering and I feel like shutting down and becoming less available to those people - luckily I have the language to tell those people what I need instead of being 'fixed', and in fact had a conversation last night with one of my friends around that, and explained what it felt like to be told what I needed to do, when I more just need a witness while I go through my own process of healing. I've also been on the receiving end of this-- with one friend in particular. She was the one who years ago begged me to go to her former therapist who specialized in codependency - I did for years, but that therapist also told me to consider this person (my friend) not a friend. It was weird. I guess she knew something I didn't know. She did help me grow over the years. I remember one time I was greatly in need of support and the friend told me "You need to learn how to self-soothe," which felt really painful at the time, but she was of course right. But as I got healthier I noticed she only came around when I was in some kind of dilemma. Or she'd write me to try to gauge where I was at - if I mentioned a problem, she would send me long emails and offer unwanted advice, but if I was like "Hey, just doing great over here," I'd hear nothing from her. I mentioned my driving anxiety to her in one email without asking for help, and she wrote back all this stuff about God and not doing it alone, etc, etc, and I was like Woah, where'd that come from and she was like, "Well you mentioned the driving anxiety." Like she didn't know how to just witness that and say something like "Sorry you're struggling with it. That's gotta be hard." Which I realize I don't always do - it's like if I have the "answer" or know something that can help, I jump in. But I can see where a simple "If you want me to share some thoughts or things that might help, let me know" would be crucial for both me and the other party. |
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Post by seeking on Dec 28, 2023 14:05:11 GMT
sunrisequest Avatar Dec 12, 2023 17:33:42 GMT -5 sunrisequest said: So, yes, like you, I was also avoiding getting what I needed... but I do not have avoidant or fearful avoidant attachment, but I do have co-dependent traits.Can you say more about what you mean here? |
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Post by seeking on Dec 28, 2023 14:20:41 GMT
I think its helpful to remember that both anxious and avoidant are unavailable for true intimacy. When actual connection not based on attachment stuff or codependency (and avoidants can be codependent with a different flavor), both avoidant and anxious shrink away, and anxious can actually leave the relationship of it gets too real. The clue to the codependency is the big expenditures of time and energy on fixing someone they aren't responsible for... a friend or peer (although I think avoidants can be very involved in helping their kids). The avoidant approach that I recognize is more "you take care of yourself, I take care of myself." With some pretty stout boundaries around getting into another person's business, there is much more hesitancy and discomfort with doing so. Also the need to be needed as a motivation, that is a turn off for an avoidant. Acts of service are a big love language for me and many avoidants I know, but it's practical stuff, not that emotional caretaking. A refusal to ask for help can be a lot of things. The refusal to ask for help for me has been largely unconscious as in, it doesn't occur to me, its not accompanied by an anxiety about being too much. Not to say that my experience is the be all end all. And, we all have a mix of styles and strategies. But the glaring theme that I see here is the giving for security in the relationship, as a codependent trait. Avoidants tend to be sooo protective of their resources of time and energy, that it would seem impossible to have one high maintenance fixer relationship, let alone several. I'd feel as if I were drowning to give that much to other adults. Really, I need people around me to pull their own weight, and I think generally thats how avoidants view relationahips. That's the big thing that stands out to me. This makes sense. I can see me being anxious and avoiding true intimacy (although I'm getting better). I don't know about "unavailable for" -- I definitely feel available for it. But maybe that is new. Maybe because I actually feel so deprived of it now. But this last paragraph is striking. I'm comparing myself to my ex or sister (both avoidant and borderline narcissistic) and I'm almost laughing that I would put myself in an avoidant boat thinking of them! My ex and I are not even cut out of the same cloth. He leaves his kids alone - even with the 1 year old. So does his wife. They have an autistic son and do ZERO for him. My daughter talks about this all the time - the contrast. Why won't they try to help, J, mom? I can't answer that. He's expected to get a job at 14. It's just so different there. My sister definitely spoils her kids (with material stuff) and doesn't expect them to help. Where my daughter knows she takes dishes into the kitchen, etc. And helps me with stuff, when I asked the girls to clear off the table at Christmas my sister was praising the girls like they had won a nobel prize. But it makes my stuff look like a compulsion. Which I guess it kind of is. I know a lot of it is in my nature, and I have a big heart, and especially a weakness for kids who struggle... but it would be a whole new way of being, relating to pull back from all that. It was - to be blunt - feel very very strange. |
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Post by seeking on Dec 28, 2023 14:40:37 GMT
I feel like you've pretty much described what co-dependency is in a nutshell here... it IS a weird form of regulation. Takes the focus off you and puts it on them. Trying to fix them so you can be valuable and keep hold of them. It's also what was happening with your sister, because you perceive that you're giving a lot more to her, and her life isn't as hard as yours, and she's more messed up than you... it takes the focus off the fact that you are lonely, struggling, and potentially just deeply crave that connection to be a functional one where you get what you need from it. In terms of where it's coming from, I don't think it's an avoidant attachment style... it's more likely a type of enmeshment, or soft internal boundaries that separate you from you and other people. Not being able to feel into the fact that someone else's pain is not your pain, or being anxious that someone else's pain will eventually mean you'll end up being abandoned... and doing what you can to avoid that. can you say more what you mean by this: "just deeply crave that connection to be a functional one where you get what you need from it."
Second paragraph: and can you say more what you mean by this: "or soft internal boundaries that separate you from you and other people."I think all this is spot on but want to understand it more. I wonder what the purpose of enmeshment is? What does it serve? It seems so pervasive to me but I think an early trauma response from growing up in an abusive household and trying to stay safe - as in, if I merge with others maybe I can foresee something coming or stop them (control them somehow). being anxious that someone else's pain will eventually mean you'll end up being abandoned -- Possibly. This would definitely fit with my early experience with my dad. I guess I'll just have to probe deeper because it being a form of regulation resonates the most of everything. I'm not sure the motivation really. Other than that I think it helps me cope with the profound feeling of loneliness I carry around, makes me feel safer and fuller somehow....and maybe more in control. |
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Post by seeking on Dec 28, 2023 15:06:22 GMT
This has turned into such a great discussion on co-dependency. I am going to recommend a great book with a silly title. How to be an adult by David Richo. One of the most impactful parts of it was about how he stopped telling others what to do/how to do it, and how much of a challenge he found that. It really changed the way I view relating. I read this book years ago and have it on my shelf so will look at that section again. Thank you. The problem is, it's also how I make a living. I basically get paid to do this and am phenomenally good at it -- except when it comes to the understanding of my motivation for it personally, apparently. But I've helped a ton of people get their lives back after serious illness and crises. I don't even stay in touch with that part of it - like it still surprises me. And I also don't even know if I do it for the reward or praise I sometimes get. So its been a bit confounding. I also think it looks different in work v personal |
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Post by seeking on Dec 28, 2023 15:15:01 GMT
I've also though a lot more about why making myself a safe place for others worked for me. I think it's because I can't do things for myself. Self care/Self love, BLEH. But jumping to help someone else, sure. 100%. So I hijacked my co-dependency for the good?. Because being an emotionally safe place for others is not about fixing them or tolerating their dysfunction. And it is definitely not about over giving and being resentful. It is about showing up in an emotionally grounded and adult space when relating to them. It requires me to slow down and figure out my feelings. It requires me to communicate non-violently and clearly. And to protect my time and energy so that I am able to show up more consistently. It also means NO FIXING. Because fixing is not being a safe place. It is not loving, and our friends are adults who can figure out their own life. It feels VERY uncomfortable to try to change your patterns like this, and I often still get it wrong, but it is worth it. For me this meant a lot of biting my tongue at first. Because it felt like well I know the answer and if they don't do X, Y, Z in that order, they'll never get better, they are going to stay stuck and that'll suck. But you know what, that is their path. I have no control over others, nor do I want it. It is exhausting. OOHHHHHHH This is SO intersting. Wait, hold on! So this might be the piece here. Wow. I remember years back talking to my body worker about how she gives and gives, and it must be exhausting or something, and I'll never forget her saying "Oh, when I'm working, I'm in the best place in myself. I'm calm and its meditative." And I was really struck by that. I thought - wow, you can give and be in a great place in yourself. And this really feels true to me! When I'm working I'm my best self. Just like you said here, I'm the safety for others. And obviously if I'm in that place, I am for myself too. I'm grounded. I'm resources, and resourceful. Like last night, my friend is in crises, and I'm calm and cool. It's like it wakes something up in me and activates this part that can show up that may not otherwise when I'm not helping/healing -- but yeah, I don't know that I can totally do that for myself. And I think with the post I'm about to write (that kind of came to me in reflecting on all this now) I need to. It's really the definition of IFS/Parts work - but still so hard for me.... Anyway, this may not be what you meant - but it gave me this epiphany here. Thank you! |
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Post by seeking on Dec 28, 2023 15:26:08 GMT
Because fixing is not being a safe place. It is not loving, and our friends are adults who can figure out their own life. It feels VERY uncomfortable to try to change your patterns like this, and I often still get it wrong, but it is worth it. For me this meant a lot of biting my tongue at first. Because it felt like well I know the answer and if they don't do X, Y, Z in that order, they'll never get better, they are going to stay stuck and that'll suck. But you know what, that is their path. I have no control over others, nor do I want it. It is exhausting.
This reminds me of last night. And my friend reaching out with the trouble they are in. She reached out to ask if I know someone who can help her daughter. She's looking for someone with the work and experience that *I DO* - I didn't just want to be like, "Um, me." But it also felt like - how is it that the people around me still don't know what I do for a living? (So my not seen parts got a little dinged). Also, my "I guess what I do isn't valid enough" part - but that didn't last. I shared a good amount of detail - and I also did provide some outside suggestions.
It would be really hard for me in this case (and this is the usual situation) to sit back and not help and watch them burn to the ground or the girl hurt herself. She basically asked for help. I know I can save them possibly YEARS of trouble and get to the root of some stuff. They can always say yes or no.
I have many friends going through a lot of stuff and I don't help. So I think it's more specific to what I wrote above - this is my talent, passion, skills. I have a friend going through a divorce and I just listen. There is a lot I could say but I bite my tongue. He's figuring it out.
I think the degree of helping I do now is similar to what you just did recommending a book. It's like "Hey, here's some really great info that may be the thing you're looking for." And then I have to let go of the outcome, which I'm generally good at doing.
I think it was really with a couple of friends in question - the one that started this post and an ex friend - that I got VERY attached to the outcome, and I don't know why. Something familial in there.
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