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Dec 11, 2023 14:02:51 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2023 14:02:51 GMT
seeking, do you feel like you do a lot of score-keeping in your relationships? Do you identify any martyr dynamics in yourself? I get the sense that you see yourself overfunctioning, and being emotionally available to friends, family, dates, people in various zones that are not enough for you. It's been the main theme of your posts for as long as I've been here, and the conclusion is seems to always be that people aren't safe for you, they are limited, they aren't doing the work, etc. It's a very pervasive, broad pattern and I know you're trying to make sense of it all. To me it looks like a bit of a martyr complex, I could be mistaken but that's possibly something to look at?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2023 14:32:38 GMT
Specifically, I'm looking at the theme of you expressing variations of "I prioritize connection" , you help, you support, you do all the things... and also you expressing themes of burnout, feeling unseen, not validated.
"I'm still way busier and crazier than both of them and with a lot less support and I'm the one prioritizing the connection."
This has been a pretty consistent narrative, right? I remember you writing before that it's a consistent theme that you have it harder to begin with, but still do all the work while other people benefit. That was concerning a friend group. But it's been there with your sister as well, who has a rich husband and can't relate to your hardships, but you show up for her while she can't show up for you. And they guy you emailed with for a while, he had this easy life that annoyed you to hear about, but when he wanted to see the community you built you were irritated like he was viewing you as a documentary or something like that. It's common for you to write about how available you are to people you feel are unavailable and then you express resentment, loneliness, feelings of unsafety.
Of course you also swing into places of being overwhelmed, unavailable and set boundaries so it's not all one way but a strong theme is that you're more capable, more available, have done more inside work, and have more to offer than the people around you while also acknowledging that you don't take good care of yourself (in your recent post here). So it's not just the lack of self care but maybe a role you have yourself in which impacts your perspectives, that of a self sacrificing martyr to people who are inadequate for you.
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Post by seeking on Dec 11, 2023 16:56:33 GMT
seeking , do you feel like you do a lot of score-keeping in your relationships? I'll come back to this. Have meetings all day but I don't. I am doing a tally here and reconciling but that's the problem I'm realizing is I actually don't keep score (like a budget) and turns out a lot of "spending" is going on without a lot of getting back. I think it's straight up avoidance. Like, duh, here I am again. I just "accidently" found a really helpful post on Insta- I don't think I can like cut and paste it here but it's Somatic Experiencing Int and it's their post about Avoidance Trauma. And it makes sense of what exactly happened to a "T" - more later but feeling relief - not relief in seeing how "broken" I still feel but relief in it being named and sort of a "thing." Thanks for sticking with me.
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Post by sunrisequest on Dec 12, 2023 3:13:29 GMT
So what would an available, reciprocal friendship look and feel like to you?? How regular would you like to have contact and and at what depth/level, and what kind of support would you feel you would want to give and receive within those friendships?
There's one thing that I've been going through lately that you might relate to, as I know you've mentioned in the past about the lack of support and how much is on your plate as a single mother with a ND child. I realised this year that I do not have nearly enough support in my life, hence the fairly long period of overwhelm I mentioned in my last reply. When I hit these stages of overwhelm, I can sometimes lean heavily into a story of 'I'm on my own, I don't have anybody for me, it's too hard, I'm here for everyone else but nobody is here doing anything for me'. I am aware this is just a story and I do actually have a lot of people who care about me. But I have come to realise and accept that my friends and partner simply cannot give me the type and level of support I need, and I really need to get this from professionals. I have had trouble with affording the level of support I need, with a single mum budget to play with, so I have put quite a lot of energy into finding free or cheaper community supports... which was a process in itself coming to the realisation and acceptance that I just wasn't coping on my own.
Support can definitely be a big part of friendship, particularly with women, but sometimes it can turn a bit co-dependent if that's all we're there for, and start using each other almost like therapy, and don't take the time to just shoot the shit and have some fun or easy connection. Not saying that's what you're doing, but it seems a common thread that you don't feel seen or supported in your struggles, yet you feel like you're giving out a lot of support.
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Post by seeking on Dec 12, 2023 3:32:35 GMT
sunrisequest. I'm the opposite. I don't rely on anyone or expect things from my friends. They even call me out on it at times - like "Is it okay if I help?" They know I don't do well with it. It was an ultra-big deal for me to ask someone to drive my daughter somewhere last week and bring her home. It's like the first time I've ever done that in 14 years. It was a foreign feeling and alien to sit here with 3 hours to myself and someone taking care of her. Mostly b/c my daughter has had extreme separation anxiety and I knew she would be okay going with this person. I spent my last therapy session talking to my therapist about support. We talked about how one-time isn't going to solve my issues, but I need something regular - before he and I met that week, I had tried to hire someone to pick up groceries for me because we don't have delivery in my area. It turns out it would be like $50 for each delivery (and who knows if I'd end up with the right groceries). I can't do $200 a month. I would LOVE to do something weekly at my church, but I also can't afford $250 a month for someone to watch my kid so I can go out once a week. After the holidays, I decided I'll find a way to take her with me. But if I could afford the grocery run person, a house cleaner (even 1x every 6 weeks), and childcare, I would feel phenomenally more supported. But it's loads of extra money I don't have right now. So we tried to come up with stuff, and my therapist ended up asking if my ex could help. He hasn't gotten the memo yet about that. So the session was kind of a waste. I'm becoming more and more involved at church and find the people there to be so lovely and wholesome and genuinely kind and healthy. Right now I'm just watching and observing and seeing the places I feel like I still need a lot of healing. But eventually, I would like to align myself more with those folks. Its been an amazing community for my daughter where she's been accepted, loved, and embraced. So that's something.
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Post by seeking on Dec 12, 2023 3:40:00 GMT
I recently saw someone post on FB about her new girlfriend (this person used to be married to a man) and her sister, and say how these were her supports - that they helped put a roof over her head and got her throughs terrible things. I don't know all that happened, but I remember being stunned and struck by that. Like I can't imagine allowing anyone to put a roof over my head. That's not how I roll. I know people who let other people take care of them. I do not.
So I think the weird "shock" feeling of someone saying "I can't be reliable right now" or "I have to take a break til Christmas" made me feel extremely called out/vulnerable. Like Oh my god I do not want to rely on anyone. Like the assumption was that I was relying on her. I was just following up with something she invited me to and even that felt awkward. I always try to be careful about leaving voice memos with my friend so I don't burden her or feel like "too much," so then I again felt like I'm needy. It's extreme. In the meantime, I'm the one supporting these folks. I've taken endless hours explaining things to my friend with OCD/Agoraphobia to try to point her in the direction of help. I've spent time talking to my friend about the troubles with her daughter and am now offering her a therapy (not charging).
Hopefully this is clearer.
I was confused about what I was reacting to last week. I'm not now. I know that feeling needy or too much feels awful and it's about this (I'll see if I can post below).
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Post by seeking on Dec 12, 2023 4:21:38 GMT
I attached some random clips from her post as screen shots. This is kind of what spoke to me about what I think is going on....that I'm so careful to not give people the impression I need them/rely on them/don't want to be too much -- and here are generally people who are not that available (my sister, this couple of friends) so when they do say something it's hard.... And yet like I said in an above post, I have a pattern in my life of feeling alone/unsupported/isolated, etc. It's no wonder? If I had someone here helping, i would feel indebted. Anyway, this was a long-a*s way to figuring this out, lol. OUR AVOIDANT behaviours are a trauma response designed to protect us. We’ve learnt that people may deeply hurt us if we let them get too close. This stems from early experiences where we’ve felt neglected, rejected or abandoned by our caregivers. IN RESPONSE, we create patterns to protect us. In the case of avoidants’ we created patterns that stop us from fully connecting with or needing others so that we don’t have to relive the pain of potentially being neglected, rejected or abandoned again. In my experience guiding many private clients through dissolving this trauma - it runs very deep + it’s as if our very survival depends upon us NOT connecting with others. It’s not until we dissolve this trauma at the origin that we realize just how much we’ve missed out on in terms of connection with others. It’s hard to imagine - until you’ve experienced the contrast. TO MOVE BEYOND AVOIDANCE ultimately we need to dissolve the trauma that keeps us guarded so that we can finally feel safe enough to allow ourselves to receive the love, affection + connection that’s here for each of us. TO DO THIS we must dissolve our original abandonment + rejection trauma.
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Post by seeking on Dec 12, 2023 4:25:53 GMT
Also, on a similar note, I saw someone post this today and it rang the same bell. I don't usually like posts like this b/c they sound sort of victimy or generic/not reality. But it's sort of the same idea as the instagram post... This. Hits. Hard. The inability to receive support from others is a trauma response. Your “I don’t need anyone, I’ll just do it all myself” conditioning is a survival tactic. And you needed it to shield your heart from abuse, neglect, betrayal, and disappointment from those who could not or would not be there for you. From the parent who was absent and abandoned you by choice or the parent who was never home from working three jobs to feed and house you. From the lovers who offered sexual intimacy but never offered a safe haven that honored your heart. From the friendships and family who ALWAYS took more than they ever gave. From all the situations when someone told you “we’re in this together” or “I got you” then abandoned you, leaving you to pick up the pieces when shit got real, leaving you to handle your part and their part, too. From all the lies and all the betrayals. You learned along the way that you just couldn’t really trust people. Or that you could trust people, but only up to a certain point. Extreme-independence IS. A. TRUST. ISSUE. You learnt: if I don’t put myself in a situation where I rely on someone, I won’t have to be disappointed when they don’t show up for me, or when they drop the ball... because they will ALWAYS drop the ball EVENTUALLY right? You may even have been intentionally taught this protection strategy by generations of hurt ancestors who came before you. Extreme-independence is a preemptive strike against heartbreak. So, you don’t trust anyone. And you don’t trust yourself, either, to choose people. To trust is to hope, to trust is to be vulnerable. “Never again,” you vow. But no matter how you dress it up and display it proudly to make it seem like this level of independence is what you always wanted to be, in truth it’s your wounded, scarred, broken heart behind a protective brick wall. Impenetrable. Nothing gets in. No hurt gets in. But no love gets in either. Fortresses and armor are for those in battle, or who believe the battle is coming. It’s a trauma response. The good news is trauma that is acknowledged is trauma that can be healed. You are worthy of having support. You are worthy of having true partnership. You are worthy of love. You are worthy of having your heart held. You are worthy to be adored. You are worthy to be cherished. You are worthy to have someone say, “You rest. I got this.” And actually deliver on that promise. You are worthy to receive. You are worthy to receive. You are worthy. You don’t have to earn it. You don’t have to prove it. You don’t have to bargain for it. You don’t have to beg for it. You are worthy. Worthy. Simply because you exist. -Jamila White, @inspiredjamila
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Post by anne12 on Dec 12, 2023 5:43:23 GMT
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Post by sunrisequest on Dec 12, 2023 10:21:38 GMT
sunrisequest . I'm the opposite. I don't rely on anyone or expect things from my friends. They even call me out on it at times - like "Is it okay if I help?" They know I don't do well with it. It was an ultra-big deal for me to ask someone to drive my daughter somewhere last week and bring her home. It's like the first time I've ever done that in 14 years. It was a foreign feeling and alien to sit here with 3 hours to myself and someone taking care of her. Mostly b/c my daughter has had extreme separation anxiety and I knew she would be okay going with this person. I spent my last therapy session talking to my therapist about support. We talked about how one-time isn't going to solve my issues, but I need something regular - before he and I met that week, I had tried to hire someone to pick up groceries for me because we don't have delivery in my area. It turns out it would be like $50 for each delivery (and who knows if I'd end up with the right groceries). I can't do $200 a month. I would LOVE to do something weekly at my church, but I also can't afford $250 a month for someone to watch my kid so I can go out once a week. After the holidays, I decided I'll find a way to take her with me. But if I could afford the grocery run person, a house cleaner (even 1x every 6 weeks), and childcare, I would feel phenomenally more supported. But it's loads of extra money I don't have right now. So we tried to come up with stuff, and my therapist ended up asking if my ex could help. He hasn't gotten the memo yet about that. So the session was kind of a waste. I'm becoming more and more involved at church and find the people there to be so lovely and wholesome and genuinely kind and healthy. Right now I'm just watching and observing and seeing the places I feel like I still need a lot of healing. But eventually, I would like to align myself more with those folks. It's been an amazing community for my daughter where she's been accepted, loved, and embraced. So that's something. I was more referring to the codependent dynamic potentially being created when there's an imbalance of giving and support, which you're suggesting is you being the giver, and some of your friends being the receivers. If you're giving free therapy and spending countless hours advising them, but not really getting the type of connection you want back - is it potentially the case that you're giving them a level of support and connection you would actually like to have for yourself (but don't feel comfortable receiving and therefore don't ask), hence the feeling of resentment you have when they back off and you end up feeling like the small things you ask for are too much? I'm more of an AP-type, with some co-dependent traits mixed in there as is common for AP's, so I was identifying with the storyline of 'nobody's here for me, I'm too much'... though I've got a fairly good handle on it these days, and am working on finding that support from places that will actually make a difference rather than the one-off moments as you said. I hope that you can find a plan that helps you to feel supported long-term. It's a tough gig, that's for sure. The avoidant info that you posted makes sense as well, but I will say that there seems to be a very common pattern of hyper-independence in single mothers who don't have much support around - some of that will be because of attachment/trauma/childhood wounding, but some of it is simply because we don't have much other choice and we develop strategies even as adults in order to cope.
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Dec 12, 2023 13:59:05 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2023 13:59:05 GMT
I don't see avoidants needing near the amount of connection, validation, being seen, as you do though, honestly. You pursue all kinds of relationships to your detriment which isn't avoidant... a toxic romantic situation, sure, avoidants enter into those all the time. But the pattern of codependent relationships in your life, and the sheer number of them, look so much more like codependency than avoidance. We all have trauma, sure. Not saying there is no overlap. But avoidants don't tend to live in emotional dependence consistently. The narrative is there along with actual avoidance of connection as in... not trying to find connection all the time.
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Dec 12, 2023 14:07:11 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2023 14:07:11 GMT
I'm just reflecting on the kinds of interactions you're posting here, and recognize that as an avoidant I tend(ed) to leave any situation with shocking ease when it encroaches, triggers, etc... I don't stick around for that trying to make it work. That's with the exception of a romantic attachment, those are very enduring for the anxious/avoidant dance no matter what side you're on.
But I can't see avoidance in clinging to the situations where you give and give, and are the one supporting the connection. Its like you're on the wrong side of the coin?
When I was single momming four kids, I had no bandwidth for helping all the people, all the time, and spinning several plates for connection. I can understand avoidance as a trauma response, but maybe am just confused by the differences here between FA and DA. I can't get my head around needing to be seen and having so many people around, longing for something from them.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2023 14:53:03 GMT
sunrisequest . I'm the opposite. I don't rely on anyone or expect things from my friends. They even call me out on it at times - like "Is it okay if I help?" They know I don't do well with it. It was an ultra-big deal for me to ask someone to drive my daughter somewhere last week and bring her home. It's like the first time I've ever done that in 14 years. It was a foreign feeling and alien to sit here with 3 hours to myself and someone taking care of her. Mostly b/c my daughter has had extreme separation anxiety and I knew she would be okay going with this person. I spent my last therapy session talking to my therapist about support. We talked about how one-time isn't going to solve my issues, but I need something regular - before he and I met that week, I had tried to hire someone to pick up groceries for me because we don't have delivery in my area. It turns out it would be like $50 for each delivery (and who knows if I'd end up with the right groceries). I can't do $200 a month. I would LOVE to do something weekly at my church, but I also can't afford $250 a month for someone to watch my kid so I can go out once a week. After the holidays, I decided I'll find a way to take her with me. But if I could afford the grocery run person, a house cleaner (even 1x every 6 weeks), and childcare, I would feel phenomenally more supported. But it's loads of extra money I don't have right now. So we tried to come up with stuff, and my therapist ended up asking if my ex could help. He hasn't gotten the memo yet about that. So the session was kind of a waste. I'm becoming more and more involved at church and find the people there to be so lovely and wholesome and genuinely kind and healthy. Right now I'm just watching and observing and seeing the places I feel like I still need a lot of healing. But eventually, I would like to align myself more with those folks. It's been an amazing community for my daughter where she's been accepted, loved, and embraced. So that's something. I was more referring to the codependent dynamic potentially being created when there's an imbalance of giving and support, which you're suggesting is you being the giver, and some of your friends being the receivers. If you're giving free therapy and spending countless hours advising them, but not really getting the type of connection you want back - is it potentially the case that you're giving them a level of support and connection you would actually like to have for yourself (but don't feel comfortable receiving and therefore don't ask), hence the feeling of resentment you have when they back off and you end up feeling like the small things you ask for are too much? I'm more of an AP-type, with some co-dependent traits mixed in there as is common for AP's, so I was identifying with the storyline of 'nobody's here for me, I'm too much'... though I've got a fairly good handle on it these days, and am working on finding that support from places that will actually make a difference rather than the one-off moments as you said. I hope that you can find a plan that helps you to feel supported long-term. It's a tough gig, that's for sure. The avoidant info that you posted makes sense as well, but I will say that there seems to be a very common pattern of hyper-independence in single mothers who don't have much support around - some of that will be because of attachment/trauma/childhood wounding, but some of it is simply because we don't have much other choice and we develop strategies even as adults in order to cope. I so agree about single moms having a hyper independence, and for me that was partly shaped by the societal shame and lack of supportive resources. I'm not social nor religious and it was very difficult to approach the single mom resources such as co-ops, or church groups, etc. For me there was definitely a sense of, you got yourself in to this, now you're going to have to deal. So it also triggered shame. It was both an internal and an external message, for me.
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Post by seeking on Dec 12, 2023 21:22:48 GMT
I was more referring to the codependent dynamic potentially being created when there's an imbalance of giving and support, which you're suggesting is you being the giver, and some of your friends being the receivers. If you're giving free therapy and spending countless hours advising them, but not really getting the type of connection you want back - is it potentially the case that you're giving them a level of support and connection you would actually like to have for yourself (but don't feel comfortable receiving and therefore don't ask), hence the feeling of resentment you have when they back off and you end up feeling like the small things you ask for are too much? I was thinking about just this thing yesterday; however, I don't know if it's support if I'm trying to fix them on some level. Actually, it's more like I want to offer them something of value/feel valuable. And my focus on them is focus off of me. it's a weird form of regulation. So I don't know that I would want that back. I had a friend like that once and it was annoying. She was trying to get me to go to therapy, trying to get me to go to church. I backed way off. I'm more aware of when I'm doing it now. But I don't fully know the motivation other than self-avoidance/disconnection to some extent. And of course it does nothing toward my goal of feeling more nourished, connected, supported - esp in relationship to others.
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Post by seeking on Dec 12, 2023 21:24:06 GMT
Oh duh. The minute I wrote that, I get it. I'm doing it to not be rejected. To feel valued so people won't want to ditch me and will need me. Lovely.
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