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Post by kristyrose on Jan 10, 2018 22:37:47 GMT
Hi Froggy,
Your post is really great! I'm on the midst of preparing for a talk with my ex FA. As you have probably read by now, we have been dating again since May of last year, however he has not been open to discussing getting back together. In fact as recent as early Dec he discussed moving on more, though that has not happened at all.
I want to propose to him that we embrace what we have now, which is a pressure-free relationship that encompasses both time apart and together and clear communication for each of our needs. I'm moving towards secure from AP, so I feel that I am more able to handle time apart and in fact, I even enjoy more these days than ever.
I drafted an email to him that I thought I could send before the talk, this way he feels prepared and is not caught off guard. Hoping that can help, but your bees with honey is exactly the route I'm taking. I don't want him to feel cornered nor do I want to let my anxiety lead the conversation. He is consistent in saying one thing, usually how he doesnt want us together, then he will immediately do the opposite. Hence the he dumped me, then pursued me shortly after.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2018 23:34:46 GMT
I understand wanting to tell her about herself. ESPECIALLY after you start understanding things a bit more. But remember, if she is avoidant, this information could cause her to push even harder. I tired to do the same with my ex. What I ended up feeling like I was doing was making him feel like I was tearing him down. He already has low self esteem. The most emotion i ever got in response to anything i said was, " I am perfectly aware of just how messed up I am!" That's the exact opposite of what my intent was. My ex is not your partner though so this approach may work for you. I really don't know. If you've expressed your needs to her already and her response is that she can't give you what you need. That's something to really think about. Think perhaps ask her what it is that she needs from you in the relationship. Then let her talk and just listen. Even If the answer is that she doesn't know, save yourself the pain of continuing to figure it out, getting into a heated debate about attachment theory or your needs and what is and isn't fair and expected in a relationship. When she's done expressing herself simply say, "Thank you for being open with me. I really appreciate that. I know it isn't always easy to put feelings into words. Do you think we can talk about this again (let's say) in a couple of days? I want process what you've told me and I want to give it deserves." Then really take the time to "hear" what she has told you. It may feel awkward and cause some anxiety just to sit and listen. Ask questions. Don't resort to telling her how she feels based on what your anxiety might tell you. Use questions like, can you help me understand why you feel that way? Or Can you tell me what it was that led you to that conclusion about me? Know what I'm saying. It's a "more bees with honey than vinegar" situation. All good advice and I certainly appreciate it. Basically I do just want to hear what she has to say, and I do want to know what she wants from the relationship. Thing is what she says and what she really wants could be two different things because of her fear. Its almost as if I wont get an honest answer. My advice is to take what she says a face value. It may not be honest but then she will have to learn the consequences of lying. If someone says they don't want to be with you, believe them. Say OK I respect this is how you feel. hang up the phone. Mourn them and grieve them for as long as it takes. And do you best to pick up and start looking forward. The loneliness they may feel because they pushed you so hard that you can't get up for a while, is a consequence of their choice. It is not your load to bare. You can't be wrong when you respect someone's wishes. This is where a personal boundary has to be set. If you want to be with me, after you told me you didn't, then there are some things I'm going to need or I can't take you back. You are traumatized and grieving so I don't know if you are "here" yet. Maybe like a lot of us you will have to burn yourself out a bit more before you finally say, you know what, this is not what I want. I love her but I don't have to love what is happening. I'm going to let her do her thing and I am going to do mine. Loosing myself in someone was the worst feeling I ever experienced. Anxious feels awful. I do feel your pain. I truly can empathize. |
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Post by stavs on Jan 10, 2018 23:38:25 GMT
All good advice and I certainly appreciate it. Basically I do just want to hear what she has to say, and I do want to know what she wants from the relationship. Thing is what she says and what she really wants could be two different things because of her fear. Its almost as if I wont get an honest answer. My advice is to take what she says a face value. It may not be honest but then she will have to learn the consequences of lying. If someone says they don't want to be with you, believe them. Say OK I respect this is how you feel. hang up the phone. Mourn them and grieve them for as long as it takes. And do you best to pick up and start looking forward. The loneliness they may feel because they pushed you so hard that you can't get up for a while, is a consequence of their choice. It is not your load to bare. You can't be wrong when you respect someone's wishes. This is where a personal boundary has to be set. If you want to be with me, after you told me you didn't, then there are some things I'm going to need or I can't take you back. You are traumatized and grieving so I don't know if you are "here" yet. Maybe like a lot of us you will have to burn yourself out a bit more before you finally say, you know what, this is not what I want. I love her but I don't have to love what is happening. I'm going to let her do her thing and I am going to do mine. Loosing myself in someone was the worst feeling I ever experienced. Anxious feels awful. I do feel your pain. I truly can empathize. Sad part is I know you right in every word you had said. I know that her losing me would be her biggest regret - she wont find anyone else like me, I am confident of that, but then again there is probably someone out there that will appreciate what I have to offer so much more. So conflicted these days. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2018 0:08:55 GMT
Hi Froggy, Your post is really great! I'm on the midst of preparing for a talk with my ex FA. As you have probably read by now, we have been dating again since May of last year, however he has not been open to discussing getting back together. In fact as recent as early Dec he discussed moving on more, though that has not happened at all. I want to propose to him that we embrace what we have now, which is a pressure-free relationship that encompasses both time apart and together and clear communication for each of our needs. I'm moving towards secure from AP, so I feel that I am more able to handle time apart and in fact, I even enjoy more these days than ever. I drafted an email to him that I thought I could send before the talk, this way he feels prepared and is not caught off guard. Hoping that can help, but your bees with honey is exactly the route I'm taking. I don't want him to feel cornered nor do I want to let my anxiety lead the conversation. He is consistent in saying one thing, usually how he doesn't want us together, then he will immediately do the opposite. Hence the he dumped me, then pursued me shortly after. I think that is wonderful! I love my time alone! I think that If he says he doesn't want you together, then that is something to seriously consider. Where is this really going. If he says one thing and does the other he is lying to you. Harsh, but that's the truth. Time apart is fine, as long as you are honest with yourself and are truly ok with it and not just doing it to appease someone holding out for crumbs of attention. Holding out for those little glimmers of "feel good" The danger to be aware of is enabling a person to think that it is ok to give you less. In extreme cases it can lead to abuse, emotional and in severe extremes sexual and physical. Make sure that you know for yourself what it is you want and need from a relationship. I stress this many times NEED is not a 4 letter word. It isn't bad to have needs. You are not need'y because you need to spend time with someone you are in a relationship with. You are not needy if you need your partner to converse with you and tell you why they are upset instead of just disappearing. There are basic needs that people have that should never be a burden to any partner regardless of attachment style. Now when someone is so anxious that they can't do ANYTHING on their own without their partner. They have to be in CONSTANT physical contact. They need to know where the other person is at ALL times. They plot and scheme to get attention, they burst out the tears and pout to get their way. They constantly criticize, or claim that you NEVER do this or NEVER do that. They slash tires, break dishes...etc. Then that is NOT any more healthy than distancing behaviors. Being kind is always the best option. Being realistic and honest is just as important. I think anyway. |
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Post by kristyrose on Jan 11, 2018 0:28:15 GMT
This gives me really good food for thought.
I truly am OK with my own time, and ya know whats funny? almost every single time he asks for a weekend alone, or more space, he never takes it. He ultimately will contact me a day or two later to hang out. Thats what worries me the most actually, and you are right, its lying. However, do you also think its possible he is just so unaware of how he is behaving? Seems almost impossible to not be aware, but I of course can be very unaware of some of my AP behaviors. Working hard to catch them!
I want him to know that I can meet him halfway, but it does not feel right to keep going as a sorta girlfriend sorta friend.
I think he will most likely tell me we need to move on, but will try to come back. That will be hard to stand firm to not allow this... but I do hope for a more positive outcome.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2018 0:29:46 GMT
My advice is to take what she says a face value. It may not be honest but then she will have to learn the consequences of lying. If someone says they don't want to be with you, believe them. Say OK I respect this is how you feel. hang up the phone. Mourn them and grieve them for as long as it takes. And do you best to pick up and start looking forward. The loneliness they may feel because they pushed you so hard that you can't get up for a while, is a consequence of their choice. It is not your load to bare. You can't be wrong when you respect someone's wishes. This is where a personal boundary has to be set. If you want to be with me, after you told me you didn't, then there are some things I'm going to need or I can't take you back. You are traumatized and grieving so I don't know if you are "here" yet. Maybe like a lot of us you will have to burn yourself out a bit more before you finally say, you know what, this is not what I want. I love her but I don't have to love what is happening. I'm going to let her do her thing and I am going to do mine. Loosing myself in someone was the worst feeling I ever experienced. Anxious feels awful. I do feel your pain. I truly can empathize. Sad part is I know you right in every word you had said. I know that her losing me would be her biggest regret - she wont find anyone else like me, I am confident of that, but then again there is probably someone out there that will appreciate what I have to offer so much more. So conflicted these days. You are hurting. I changed my tag but a mantra of sorts that I use when I feel like things are wacky is, You are having a normal reaction to an abnormal set of circumstances. Feel your feelings, grieve fully and things will get better, I promise! While you are being patient with the people you love don't forget to be patient with your self. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2018 1:16:09 GMT
This gives me really good food for thought. I truly am OK with my own time, and ya know whats funny? almost every single time he asks for a weekend alone, or more space, he never takes it. He ultimately will contact me a day or two later to hang out. Thats what worries me the most actually, and you are right, its lying. However, do you also think its possible he is just so unaware of how he is behaving? Seems almost impossible to not be aware, but I of course can be very unaware of some of my AP behaviors. Working hard to catch them! I want him to know that I can meet him halfway, but it does not feel right to keep going as a sorta girlfriend sorta friend. I think he will most likely tell me we need to move on, but will try to come back. That will be hard to stand firm to not allow this... but I do hope for a more positive outcome. I think sometimes people say they don't want something to protect themselves from a perceived hurt. I'v caught myself saying, "I was fine without you before, I'll be fine without you if you leave." YIKES! I wasn't maliciously lying but I was trying to fool myself into believing that to be true. I was a MESS without him. I missed him so much. And while I feel much more myself these days, my world is not the same since I met him. That fib I told myself probably really hurt his feelings and guess what, he STILL broke things off. I think he wants to spend time with you, but wants to be sure he always has a way out. Secure relationships though, aren't always looking for an escape door. It is perfectly fine if you can honestly live with being on the fence, but I am going to tell you, it would be very stressful for me. I'm one who needs to know where I stand. You know, when my ex broke things off I was so confused. I didn't understand what happened. I tried for a year to figure it out, practically begged him for answers. Felt like a fool for doing it too. Then the last time I asked for clarity he told me, "I'm not in love with you. Things ended for no other reason than I just didn't feel it anymore. You did nothing wrong. Don't take this personally. I'm not saying I don't care or that you don't matter just that we are not going to be in a relationship and now we can't be friends either" I really don't know if I just got fed up with it all but somehow Secure Froggy woke up, she came back FULL FORCE! Secure Froggy, said "Thank you very much for your honesty. I wish you well." Once I knew exactly where I stood. There was nothing left for me to figure out. If someone can tell me they don't love, that they don't want a relationship, then I'm out! "I love you but I'm not IN love with you" Is a deal breaker for me. It is one of my boundaries. I don't personally want "IN LOVE" I want real, deep, grow old together, love. Love that helps you through making a budget and deciding what to have for dinner. I don't know anyone who has hearts in their eyes when they are comparing mortgage interest rates! But Real love sticks through even all that less exciting stuff. THAT is what I'M looking for. If someone doesn't want that, then I don't want them in my life. I don't want to have to convince someone to love me, like a sales person trying to sell a car. I'm worth more than that. So I don't hate, don't resent but if he comes back Secure Froggy says your can say 'I love you" all you want but that means nothing to me. SHOW ME! Sorry the inner Beyonce just came out a bit! LOL |
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Post by kristyrose on Jan 11, 2018 1:34:53 GMT
LOL! Nice!
I think you are right about wanting to spend time on his terms, with a way out as you said. When we were a couple, he struggled quite a bit with commitment and could not say "i love you"- but would show it. He was very faithful and had this big group of friends since grade school who told me that I was the first woman they had even met- so I think I thought I was different, special. I see now that he just tried it out and finally realized it was not for him, that a casual monogamous relationship on HIS terms is all he can do.
I would like to propose that we both try to meet in the middle and instead of applying pressure, see how it goes day by day for a time. I know I'm not ready to leave him entirely or have him out of my life, but I also long to be as strong as you, Ms. Froggy!! :-)
Sending you a great big hug!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2018 8:02:06 GMT
Oooooooooooo I love hugs! Thank you and right back at you.
I do feel stronger now but believe me, I totally hear everything that everyone is saying here.
I've learned so much from Anxious and Avoidant alike on this forum.
I love my ex So So much, I've accepted that I will always love him. But I don't love the insecurity, the confusion, the instability that his own insecurities triggered in me. If I can't live with myself, then something's gotta change. I can't change him but I can change me
All I can do at this point his hope that he'll see his full potential and grow so he doesn't keep hurting himself anymore or other women like myself.
Not to sound vein but it really is his loss. I think I'm a pretty great woman and I can guarantee he'd be hard pressed to find another woman who would love him more. I want someone who loves me as deeply as I love them.
I'll find that eventually and if not, I'm going to be content not suffering this heartache anymore. I have control over that.
It's a win win!
Take care of yourself. I hope you are able to find a balance with the person you love. You added stronger than you think!
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Post by kristyrose on Jan 12, 2018 20:03:42 GMT
Hi Froggy!
Really loved this last post, very inspiring!
He asked if we could talk last night and then told me he also got us tickets to a show, but then said if the "talk" was going to cause one of us to walk away potentially upset, then perhaps we should put the show on hold. Well, I wasn't able to meet him because my best friend's dog passed away suddenly, so I told him we can go to the show and talk later, but that no one should have to walk away upset when we talk.
Part of me feels like he is already thinking he will be letting me down? I don't know, but only way to find out. I've been dragging this out for a month now.
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sam
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Post by sam on Jan 13, 2018 23:40:22 GMT
Over the past few weeks I have been struggling to decide if the issue in my relationship is because the person is FA (shows all the signs) or if they simply are not into me. Any thoughts on the differences between the two? I am assuming you want answers from FAs because I know as an AP, my being "really" into a person can make his "kinda or just being" into me look like he isn't interested. In fact, my abandonment story will tell me that he isn't into me without there be anything to show that...it is just not how "I show" being into someone so it doesn't add up for me. Honestly...you may just want to talk to her about this...in a non emotional way. Maybe say..."What are the top 3 ways you like to show that you care for someone". I really wish I had done that more....asked for his perspective in a very non emotional, non personal way. Instead I let my fear feed my perspective and was not able to really question those adequately. This is exactly what I’m thinking now, he just wasn’t into me. No photos of me on his phone or WhatsApp profile photo after 4 years. But has a photo of him and his new girlfriend as his profile photo on WhatsApp! |
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Post by stavs on Jan 15, 2018 1:08:44 GMT
I am assuming you want answers from FAs because I know as an AP, my being "really" into a person can make his "kinda or just being" into me look like he isn't interested. In fact, my abandonment story will tell me that he isn't into me without there be anything to show that...it is just not how "I show" being into someone so it doesn't add up for me. Honestly...you may just want to talk to her about this...in a non emotional way. Maybe say..."What are the top 3 ways you like to show that you care for someone". I really wish I had done that more....asked for his perspective in a very non emotional, non personal way. Instead I let my fear feed my perspective and was not able to really question those adequately. This is exactly what I’m thinking now, he just wasn’t into me. No photos of me on his phone or WhatsApp profile photo after 4 years. But has a photo of him and his new girlfriend as his profile photo on WhatsApp! Yeah I dont get the no pictures thing at all. When I'm with someone I'm super proud of them and have no qualms about being seen together. I hope an FA can shed some light. |
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sam
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Post by sam on Jan 15, 2018 1:31:04 GMT
This is exactly what I’m thinking now, he just wasn’t into me. No photos of me on his phone or WhatsApp profile photo after 4 years. But has a photo of him and his new girlfriend as his profile photo on WhatsApp! Yeah I dont get the no pictures thing at all. When I'm with someone I'm super proud of them and have no qualms about being seen together. I hope an FA can shed some light. Hi Exactly, that’s part of a relationship! When I saw it I felt awful as he never had any photos of me. |
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Post by abolish on Jan 16, 2018 20:35:27 GMT
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sam
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Post by sam on Jan 16, 2018 23:27:39 GMT
Yeah I dont get the no pictures thing at all. When I'm with someone I'm super proud of them and have no qualms about being seen together. I hope an FA can shed some light. It's like PDA to me. A BIG NO! It'd make me very uncomfortable. Ahh ok, I get that. So does that mean that my ex wasn’t actually avoidant, he just wasn’t into me, seeing as his profile picture is of him and new girlfriend. |
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