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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2021 12:59:49 GMT
You said your current partner is "trying". Do you think he deserves to be the collateral damage of your sense of entitlement here? You've justified your actions in doing all this while he is away but is your conscience truly clear about this? What about his emotional well being? He went on a trip and will be returning to a girlfriend who is secretly attempting to negotiate a reconciliation with her ex. This is emotional infidelity, which is very damaging to the partner who is in the dark. He'll be picking up the signs, surely. If you have major issues with him why not deal squarely and honestly and make decisions about your relationship that respect him as well? Isn't that what you would expect from someone you're dating?
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Post by tnr9 on Aug 25, 2021 13:10:41 GMT
Not necessary. Which is why I am not too sure where you come from. But where I'm from, people go to the police and haul the perpetrators to the magistrates from mere accusations of controlling behaviours or even speaking in a threatening manner. To put things into perspective, what my ex did to me, I can easily go to the police to file a DVO and have the magistrates order her not to come within 500m of me. Right…but she is a narcissist…which is a personality disorder.
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Post by tnr9 on Aug 25, 2021 13:27:15 GMT
I have seen no ownership over the choices that you made other then to come to the conclusion that you have been a victim. Also, how was it determined that your ex was only an avoidant and was not dealing with other issues? Also…this may interest you…..see if you find yourself falling into a victim role not just with your ex but with dating possibilities etc. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_trianglei found the above really interesting and also try to consider when I am in dialogue with others whether I am taking one of the stances mentioned. I take ownership that her avoidance triggered my anxieties and protest behaviours. That's from therapy and introspection even when she was still flip flopping with me. I tried my absolute hardest working on myself and my anxieties but as you read from my experience, she kept moving the goal post and no matter what I did, its never good enough. Moreover, I put in 110% when she said we are fixing the relationship whereas looking back, she put in barely 5%. So perhaps calling myself a "victim" might be stretching it a bit....its more so of: "You know what? I've put in 110% and you put in less than the bare minimum. So the problem is not me, its you. So f**k you, for gaslighting me for a whole year and in the end, still putting the blame solely on me.". Which is why after some deep soul searching and (buzzword of the day) introspectively looking inside, I come to the conclusion - screw avoidants. Yes I can be friends with one. They're "nice" people after all, but never in a relationship with one ever again. If she purposely moved the goal post etc….with intention…..then I don’t think she is just has avoidant attachment wounds…..that sounds like another narcissist. And although I have read about some theories of narcissists being extreme versions of avoidants…..having dated both I disagree. The narcissist I dated was fully aware of his actions and their effect on me…he just did not care. Everything was centered around him because he had low empathy…thus the rules of society or anyone’s rules, did not apply to him. It was by far the worst relationship I even entered into…..but, it was completely different from the FA partners I dated. Looking back…a lot of B’s behaviors…I don’t see any intentionality in them…I know at times I did compare him to my narcissistic ex because it seemed as if there was intentionality….but in Bs case…it was all reactions to old wounds, poor communication, poor ability to deal with conflict, inability to properly express discomfort and concerns…in a nut shell….I think he never expected me to have the overwhelming feelings I had for him and he kept testing me…not because he wanted to hurt me but because no other partner gave him such freedom….but, in his mind he knew he wasn’t with me for the long term…so there was this struggle between enjoying his freedom with me and doubts that stemmed from a knowledge that he did not plan to be with me long term. In the end, even though it absolutely broke my heart when he broke up with me…it truly was for the best…but the struggle I see looking back at B and the intentional behaviors I experienced from the narcissist were extremely different. That is what I think may be at play here….the intentionality is a key sign that it isn’t just attachment wounding but likely something else like a personality disorder.
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Post by tnr9 on Aug 25, 2021 13:43:14 GMT
First of all I want to thank everyone for responding, it was all very encouraging. tnr9 no, I will not be discussing any of this with my partner. It’s not his burden. This it may not effect our relationship negatively, and ultimately we are not engaged nor married. I think people who break rules do so in part because they feel entitled to it, and in this case, I do feel entitled at this stage in my life to assess exactly how I feel about my ex. So much rides on it. If I actually get to close the door energetically - that which I have been unable to do - that will only be good for my current relationship. If I decide to reopen it with my ex, that will obviously mean a break-up with my current partner, which would be heartbreaking on its own. I am not excluding the possibility that I belong with neither of them. I am definitely not physically cheating, and all these questions are in my own head at this point. I’m not sure being confused counts as emotionally cheating either. Especially in this situation. I see this as a possible way also to have a non traumatic break up with my ex. Every single break up was traumatic. We are talking openly now and that is not a bad thing. Regardless of what happens in the future he is an important part of my past and we both owe it to the good part of what we had to either try again, or finally break up as friends who like eachother. We have mutual friends anyway and it would make life easier if we got along. This would not be a bad ending, either. He is starting to realize that his relationship expectations are unhealthy/unrealistic. on his list of needs was: 1) accept me for who I am 2) don’t ever question my decisions and 3) don’t try to change me or control me. And also we do the following couples activities: exercise, sleep, eat, read, hang out, travel. . His being so open about his expectations enabled me to point out how insane that is…that healthy relationships need conflict that is handled well. It let us talk about his perceptive filter and how it can be skewed, seeing things as controlling that may not be. I also explained that you can accept a person and love a person and not accept certain behaviors. And that people can and do change gradually in relationships. He then requested a do-over for an argument we had 10 months ago, and it went much better. Also, with the Covid thing, he apparently was keeping tabs on my condition through his sister. He said he wasn’t worried Bc I wasn’t admitted to the hospital. Although it was totally wrong, I see how from his end he still was concerned. We left it off like this : we are both thinking about what would be required of each party to actually make it work. And honestly it may be too much for one or both of us. I personally felt exhausted after explaining all that shit to him, and if occurred to me, that even if he can and will change, it may be with great patience and sacrifice on my part. I dunno if a DA-ex 2.0 version is worth all that. Hey doctora….I get it…I have actually been somewhat where you are but it was between 2 FAs….my old FA had reached out wanting to reconcile and my new FA was completely in the dark. I wish I could tell you that things improved with the old FA and that I got to have the break up I wanted on my terms….but that did not happen because the moment I was back to being available to him is the moment his old scared behaviors started to come through again and my old fears of abandonment started to come through and it was pretty darn disastrous….new guy left….old guy stuck around but round 2 was just another repeat of round 1 with me being more aware of my triggers but still spiraling in the same circles. My therapist actually asked me…what break up are you trying to get a redo of…this one with this ex…or one from a long time ago? Since you have already stated that you want to pursue this course of action…my only recommendation is to check in with yourself on the question my therapist asked me.
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Post by annieb on Aug 25, 2021 14:36:35 GMT
If you’re going to have this type of conversations with your ex, you need to break up with your boyfriend today and cite the exact reason you’re doing it so he is not in the dark. Your train of thought has gone in a very self centered and codependent direction. Here is a thing about your ex - you will have the exact same relationship you had with him, maybe he will try here and there if he feels you’ve had enough, but you will have this frustration and never being good enough for the rest of your life. Look some people want that. Maybe you want to repeat your childhood traumas for the rest of eternity. Maybe that is what you truly want? Maybe that’s what helps you get through the day? That you’re never good enough.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2021 14:54:50 GMT
If you’re going to have this type of conversations with your ex, you need to break up with your boyfriend today and cite the exact reason you’re doing it so he is not in the dark. Your train of thought has gone in a very self centered and codependent direction. Here is a thing about your ex - you will have the exact same relationship you had with him, maybe he will try here and there if he feels you’ve had enough, but you will have this frustration and never being good enough for the rest of your life. Look some people want that. Maybe you want to repeat your childhood traumas for the rest of eternity. Maybe that is what you truly want? Maybe that’s what helps you get through the day? That you’re never good enough. Well said, this is reason that most here encourage introspection. It's easy to talk about how selfish, unempathetic and unhealthy an ex is and then somehow justify one's own selfish, unempathetic and unhealthy behavior. It's worth considering that anyone who behaves in a selfish way might feel entitled and confused, just like this. But again, others get villianized when it's you that suffers. Dyfunction at its finest, we have all been there but seriously, that's why the needle needs to tilt from blame and victim mentality to personal responsibility and accountability.
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Post by doctora on Aug 25, 2021 15:26:43 GMT
Yeah. Um, no I don’t. I have a clear conscience. Everyone has a different situation. If you would do that in my situation, that’s ok. I don’t know how I feel and am not going to make any moves at all. By the way, this is a forum where I bring only bits of information - in short, my current partner and I have had plenty of square and direct talks about our issues, and plenty of talks about my ex. He is 7 years younger than me and didn’t work during the pandemic. He says this will change and that he was depressed during Covid and I want to believe him, but for pragmatic reasons I cannot rely on this. And he understands this. He even gave me the green light to go on dates with other people, because he could see how anxious I was staying with him, but he sort of dared me to find someone that I could connect with better. Shit is complicated, people, and just because you would do something doesn’t mean what I’m doing is unethical or cheating or wrong. Not to mention, my current partner and I have known eachother for over 7 years, and he was my friend when I was dating my ex on and off. He knows the history and he gets it. I truly don’t think he’d want to be privy to all my private thoughts and communications about this. I also have talked about this to him in the past, how I have had trouble moving on from the trauma of it, what he would feel like if my ex returned again and wanted me to go to therapy with him, and knowing him, I’m sure he’d want me to deal with this and bring him the result - either breaking up or even more committed. He’s busy with work for the first time since the pandemic and for once he’s not depressed. I am not going to mess with that by having an immediate conversation. It’s incredibly unnecessary. It is not a black and white situation.
If you’re going to get hung up on that aspect, don’t even respond because it’s just not helpful. I also don’t see how it’s codependent or overly selfish. I am alone, weighing my options. I am not engaged to my current boyfriend, that leaves some room for a woman of 34, I think, so seriously figure out how to go about things.
I have the green light from my therapist to do what I need to do to have some resolve and closure. I see a therapist once a week. I also have been talking to friends who know about this situation and are morally opposed to cheating, and they get it. This is bigger than black and white rules. I need to either move on or not.
Besides, this communication might not lead to a reconciliation but like I said, a less traumatic parting. And I owe that to myself and my current partner if that’s where it leads. It will mean freedom from the trauma bond….which I think is good.
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Post by annieb on Aug 25, 2021 15:39:23 GMT
What you’re doing is unethical to you. Is all I’m going to say. Why are you with your boyfriend of there are all these “problems”. You shouldn’t be in a relationship with him, if there are major issues. Relationships are not constant battles where you cite the many issues. I mean they are relationships, but they are uphill battles. I say this because I’ve done the exact same thing, when in throws of my codependency. My opinion is that you should be alone, and you shouldn’t talk to your ex and you shouldn’t be in a relationship with the new guy either. And you don’t need to take all this time to asses anything. You’ve already wasted 10 years of your life with your ex and if you’re wishy washy about your new boyfriend, break up.
Keep going to your own therapy and to CoDA meetings and make new friends. Make female friends, who you have mutual interests with and can develop mutual respect. Work on your secure relationships. Develop secure relationships. The direction you were going with the new home is where you should be headed. Work on your self esteem. None of the issues where you’re torn in ten different directions like you are now will even be relevant once you truly love yourself. Work on that. Figure out what you need to love yourself.
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Post by doctora on Aug 25, 2021 15:42:21 GMT
If you’re going to have this type of conversations with your ex, you need to break up with your boyfriend today and cite the exact reason you’re doing it so he is not in the dark. Your train of thought has gone in a very self centered and codependent direction. Here is a thing about your ex - you will have the exact same relationship you had with him, maybe he will try here and there if he feels you’ve had enough, but you will have this frustration and never being good enough for the rest of your life. Look some people want that. Maybe you want to repeat your childhood traumas for the rest of eternity. Maybe that is what you truly want? Maybe that’s what helps you get through the day? That you’re never good enough. annieb I appreciate most of your advice but here you are very black-and-white, and dismissive. None of us know at this point where it will lead or if the relationship would change or not, we only know likelihoods. it is incredibly disempowering to anyone to hear what you just wrote. That I want to repeat childhood traumas. It is sort of the opposite, my dear. I don't know but when you broke up with your exes, was your ex looking at thais gibson videos? Was there even the same amount of information that is available today back then? did he seem really interested in figuring out what was wrong with him? The reason why I don’t know and I’m confused as to what I want to do is because I don’t really know if it’s possible for things to change entirely, or what that would require, or if I’m even up to it. Maybe I just want to end things in a way that will free me in the future.
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Post by doctora on Aug 25, 2021 15:50:07 GMT
What you’re doing is unethical to you. Is all I’m going to say. Why are you with your boyfriend of there are all these “problems”. You shouldn’t be in a relationship with him, if there are major issues. Relationships are not constant battles where you cite the many issues. I mean they are relationships, but they are uphill battles. I say this because I’ve done the exact same thing, when in throws of my codependency. My opinion is that you should be alone, and you shouldn’t talk to your ex and you shouldn’t be in a relationship with the new guy either. And you don’t need to take all this time to asses anything. You’ve already wasted 10 years of your life with your ex and if you’re wishy washy about your new boyfriend, break up. Keep going to your own therapy and to CoDA meetings and make new friends. Make female friends, who you have mutual interests with and can develop mutual respect. Work on your secure relationships. Develop secure relationships. The direction you were going with the new home is where you should be headed. Work on your self esteem. None of the issues where you’re torn in ten different directions like you are now will even be relevant once you truly love yourself. Work on that. Figure out what you need to love yourself. I have LOTS of great female friends, most of which are in secure relationships.. I have secure relationships. I’ve developed them. I have great self esteem. And I do love myself. It’s not mutually exclusive. And no, I’m not going to break up with my current bf because I’m wishy-washy - not YET. I have tried to break up with him before and he asked for more time to resolve those issues and so far I have no idea what his job situation will look like after this tour. I do not KNOW. Is there a problem with that? I think I’d be way more anxious and self loathing if I made knee jerk decisions. This is an act of self love for me to figure this out.
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Post by annieb on Aug 25, 2021 15:52:49 GMT
I understand and I know it’s black and white and dismissive. It’s that way in purpose. Because as it is you’re looking for self love in the wrong places. You will not find it via either of these relationships.
As a matter of fact, my ex did have some introspection in the end and he understood that he may be a narcissist (he came up with that on his own) and he broke down weeping in the most heartbreaking way, but I also know that it’s his journey from there on. And that he will grow god willing on his own and that I will grow on my own. And then if we were to meet down the road while grown, it will be having grown further apart. Which is a good thing for both of us.
There is no way I could be the person I was with him and the person I am now I could never allow that same disrespect. We would simply not be attracted to one another.
I don’t know how to help you because I feel like you will always come back in this circular pattern, and it’s been two years. You will never change this man, and he will never change to where he need to be to be a partner. At 34, date a new man, who is ready for the things you are ready for. Neither of these men are it. At this point do you understand that you are standing in your own way?
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Post by doctora on Aug 25, 2021 16:05:18 GMT
I understand and I know it’s black and white and dismissive. It’s that way in purpose. Because as it is you’re looking for self love in the wrong places. You will not find it via either of these relationships. As a matter of fact, my ex did have some introspection in the end and he understood that he may be a narcissist (he came up with that on his own) and he broke down weeping in the most heartbreaking way, but I also know that it’s his journey from there on. And that he will grow god willing on his own and that I will grow on my own. And then if we were to meet down the road while grown, it will be having grown further apart. Which is a good thing for both of us. There is no way I could be the person I was with him and the person I am now I could never allow that same disrespect. We would simply not be attracted to one another. I don’t know how to help you because I feel like you will always come back in this circular pattern, and it’s been two years. You will never change this man, and he will never change to where he need to be to be a partner. At 34, date a new man, who is ready for the things you are ready for. Neither of these men are it. At this point do you understand that you are standing in your own way? Like I said above, I’m not excluding the possibility that I belong with neither of them. But I need to figure it out for myself. I appreciate everyone’s warnings here, and they are a good reminder of what the likely outcome is. You say date a new man, one who is ready for what I’m ready for - do you think this is simple to find? Not only that, but to find someone that is ready for the same things as I am and that we get along and I love is a pretty tall order. Bottom line is I don’t want to do that. I want to do what I am currently doing. The outcome cannot be bad because I don’t expect great things and I’m not deceiving myself.
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Post by annieb on Aug 25, 2021 16:19:05 GMT
No, it’s not easy to find a new man, who is ready for what you are. It’s a lot of time and effort. But so is trying to change the men into what you want them to be, I would imagine it’s even more frustrating, time consuming and ultimately futile. Going on dates with new men and deciding whether you’re compatible, and developing a relationship if you are compatible will be so much more satisfying than being frustrated with men, who are not right for you. And if at the end you are still single with your beautiful home and frozen eggs, then having a baby on your own will be so much better for the child than doing it with a man you had to pull while he was kicking and screaming.
If anything the new boyfriend has potential, but when you say you tried to break up with him and he asked for more time, I actually don’t understand how that is healthy either. If you were at a break it point and trying to break up with him then I can’t imagine you were happy. And if you’re not happy, no - you shouldn’t be in a relationship with him. It’s unfair. Are you happy with your boyfriend?
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Post by tnr9 on Aug 25, 2021 18:48:08 GMT
I understand and I know it’s black and white and dismissive. It’s that way in purpose. Because as it is you’re looking for self love in the wrong places. You will not find it via either of these relationships. As a matter of fact, my ex did have some introspection in the end and he understood that he may be a narcissist (he came up with that on his own) and he broke down weeping in the most heartbreaking way, but I also know that it’s his journey from there on. And that he will grow god willing on his own and that I will grow on my own. And then if we were to meet down the road while grown, it will be having grown further apart. Which is a good thing for both of us. There is no way I could be the person I was with him and the person I am now I could never allow that same disrespect. We would simply not be attracted to one another. I don’t know how to help you because I feel like you will always come back in this circular pattern, and it’s been two years. You will never change this man, and he will never change to where he need to be to be a partner. At 34, date a new man, who is ready for the things you are ready for. Neither of these men are it. At this point do you understand that you are standing in your own way? Like I said above, I’m not excluding the possibility that I belong with neither of them. But I need to figure it out for myself. I appreciate everyone’s warnings here, and they are a good reminder of what the likely outcome is. You say date a new man, one who is ready for what I’m ready for - do you think this is simple to find? Not only that, but to find someone that is ready for the same things as I am and that we get along and I love is a pretty tall order. Bottom line is I don’t want to do that. I want to do what I am currently doing. The outcome cannot be bad because I don’t expect great things and I’m not deceiving myself. Hey doctora…not trying to change your mind about your plans…but stating that finding a person who fits all your criteria is a tall order is looking through a scarcity lens. Perhaps he doesn’t exist where you are…maybe you might need to open yourself up to other parts of the country or the world. The singles community I belonged to at my church was full of single men…but B stood out because he was attractive and articulate (this was before I knew any of his FA characteristics) so I convinced myself that he was worth all my effort because to be fair…a lot of the other guys were not my type at all and I was so tired of being single. I am not going to repeat my story with B…but I have decided that the guy who fits with me may not be in my community…heck, he might not even be in my state or in the USA…but I am not going to settle for a sometimes meets my needs relationship again. Right now I am working on me, but I am open to the possibility that I could meet someone at any place at any time….so I am just keeping an optimistic and open view.
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Post by dullboat123 on Aug 25, 2021 23:31:57 GMT
Doctora, have you thought about this is just another of his ploy to "hunt and capture", to fulfil this ego and then once captured, the same old shit happens?
I can tell you for guys, there's no bigger ego boost than making you leave your current bf for him.
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