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Post by doctora on Aug 15, 2021 3:55:19 GMT
Ok so here’s what happened last night. Went to a high school friends party. My friends have been very good about not inviting me and my ex at the same place. I walk in, my ex was there. Was quite shocked. Got a little upset at our mutual friends for not informing me, because I wouldn’t have come had I known. Things were fine though, i mingled and he mingled separately, and eventually he asked me to sit down and chat. I caught him up on what I had been up to - froze my eggs, bought a house. He started working as an MD in a private practice. We started talking a little bit about what happened with us. I was actually kind of taken aback at how messed up his brain is. He didn’t remember it was last December. He thought it was last year. He didn’t remember I had had surgery. He didn’t remember all these details. He didn’t remember things he said in the end. He also described a typical scenario of pushing things down and distracting himself after the break up. He clearly wanted to discuss everything. He’s been seeing a therapist, and working on self improvement, he said.I told him we could only gloss over it at the party but that I wanted to mingle and if he was serious about having a conversation about this that he could set up an appointment. I don’t know how this happened but he ended up coming over to my new place- he definitely was being a little manipulative, like he was sulking and saying he’d walk home (at 4 in the morning at a dangerous place ), but I saw through it and have guest rooms and other people were crashing too, so I just have everyone a ride to my place. I slept on a different floor than he did. He was very impressed with the house. This morning we talked a lot. I was very honest about how I felt. He does badly want a family and the gist of what I said to him was then you have to get real with yourself because it’s just not going to happen, not with me at least 100%, and maybe not with anyone unless he changes. I said his self improvement is nice but his issue is relational, he’ll never actually get healthier unless he practices this stuff within a relationship. I said this is just insane- if you want a family and you love me and I want a family and we discovered the avoidant thing and were going to a therapist why on earth did you think that the last argument we had warranted dumping me? Which, we also got around to discussing and he saw my points about that topic. I also didn’t understand why he didn’t respond to that letter I sent because it said the same things. He apologized for being a jerk for our entire relationship and asked me if I maybe want to go to a session with his therapist. He also said he’d knows managing conflict and sticking through discomfort is the issue. Also he said that he’s never actually pictured having kids or marrying anyone else. Just like I thought. He also said that someone at the party mentioned to him I might be coming and he had said it was ok, and that HE BROUGHT HIS TOOTHBRUSH with him when they told him I might be coming (Bc he was planning on ending the night at my place….) Current feelings: validated. Relieved. Exhausted. Sort of indifferent. I’m not sure if it’s a closure convo or not. I have such little energy left for the situation. I will go to a session with his therapist for him if he meant it, and I guess I can assess where he’s at. I did get everything out that I’d wanted to say so also that felt good, but it’s nothing I haven’t said before, it just seemed like he was present and heard everything. I covered all the bases of how incongruent his behavior was with someone who wants to have a family with someone they love and wants it to work. He texted me after he left that says : “I am super uncomfortable right now but I am ok with it  ” Again, have no idea how I’m feeling right now other than validated. I don’t know if I have any emotional attraction left. There is some but it’s been eroded. I wouldn’t give it another try unless I was absolutely certain that he was committed to changing and doing things super differently, and even then, I do not know if I would want to give it another try. I guess we will see what he does. My hopes have not gone up or down, they’re exactly the same. Just wanted to update everyone |
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Post by annieb on Aug 15, 2021 6:20:57 GMT
Typical stuff. Rest assured if you go to “therapy” with him, you’ll waste another hour of your life you will never get back. He will wear you down and your boundaries down for the simple reason that he can. And you give him the time of day. I’m glad you’re feeling validated and I hope you can leave and end it there. Focus on your beautiful home (congrats!), your new (secure!) boyfriend and your future. This guy is the past. He needs to go to his own therapy. He is not your problem anymore.
Not that you didn’t know this, but in case your brain starts playing tricks on you, I’m reminding.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2021 1:14:26 GMT
Totally agree with annieb, that was my first reaction too. I have two things to reflect back to you doctora, because you sound like you are building a great life (a multi-level house!!) and I'd hate for it all to be at risk. 1. "I will go to a session with his therapist for him if he meant it, and I guess I can assess where he’s at." He didn't want to be part of your future when he had the chance, he doesn't get to be part of your future when someone else is holding the right (your current partner). Why on earth would you go to therapy FOR him and WITH him??? that should have been something the two of you do when you were together, if there was any interest in preserving and nurturing the relationship. The only possibility of me doing therapy with my ex is if he was dying but refuses to die because he is so unresolved about the situation, then yea maybe. The fact that you had a closure convo is already more than most. 2. "I wouldn’t give it another try unless I was absolutely certain that he was committed to changing and doing things super differently, and even then, I do not know if I would want to give it another try." It may help to re-examine your commitments to yourself and why you would even entertain the possibility of trying when you already have a current secure partner. I'm glad that you had this conversation and feel validated. perhaps it is best to leave it as is when your head is held high and your boundaries are intact. He has to do all the work himself, and not drag you along with him while he finds his footing. The fact that he brought along his toothbrush already is a loud and clear signal that he thinks he still got it with you - and as much as that is "flattering", you might want to think about what that looks like in relation to your current relationship. e.g., does he not respect that you are already attached or does he think that he has such a hold on you that you will disrespect your current relationship? |
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Post by alexandra on Aug 16, 2021 1:18:55 GMT
The only possibility of me doing therapy with my ex is if he was dying but refuses to die because he is so unresolved about the situation, then yea maybe. LMAO @shiningstar 🤣 This sounds like an excellent movie premise, too! |
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Post by tnr9 on Aug 16, 2021 1:26:21 GMT
The only possibility of me doing therapy with my ex is if he was dying but refuses to die because he is so unresolved about the situation, then yea maybe. LMAO @shiningstar 🤣 This sounds like an excellent movie premise, too! OMG….@shiningstar…I was going to say the plot of a daytime soap…..oooooh…..then the secure end care doctor sees your strength and asks you out for coffee…. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2021 1:50:58 GMT
LOL! I truly think this; I would do it so that he doesn't haunt me because he can't rest in peace. But a hot secure doctor and coffee sound too good to be true!! haha.
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Post by krolle on Aug 16, 2021 22:05:41 GMT
This thread is extremely triggering for me lol.
But I'm really happy to hear that you have made some progress Doctora. I love it when people in a lot of pain get some kind of relief.
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Post by tnr9 on Aug 17, 2021 0:34:21 GMT
This thread is extremely triggering for me lol. But I'm really happy to hear that you have made some progress Doctora. I love it when people in a lot of pain get some kind of relief. Hey krolle…I would like to hear more about how this thread triggers you. If you prefer, you can PM me but I think it is useful to understand each other’s triggers. |
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Post by doctora on Aug 17, 2021 20:31:05 GMT
Totally agree with annieb, that was my first reaction too. I have two things to reflect back to you doctora, because you sound like you are building a great life (a multi-level house!!) and I'd hate for it all to be at risk. 1. "I will go to a session with his therapist for him if he meant it, and I guess I can assess where he’s at." He didn't want to be part of your future when he had the chance, he doesn't get to be part of your future when someone else is holding the right (your current partner). Why on earth would you go to therapy FOR him and WITH him??? that should have been something the two of you do when you were together, if there was any interest in preserving and nurturing the relationship. The only possibility of me doing therapy with my ex is if he was dying but refuses to die because he is so unresolved about the situation, then yea maybe. The fact that you had a closure convo is already more than most. 2. "I wouldn’t give it another try unless I was absolutely certain that he was committed to changing and doing things super differently, and even then, I do not know if I would want to give it another try." It may help to re-examine your commitments to yourself and why you would even entertain the possibility of trying when you already have a current secure partner. I'm glad that you had this conversation and feel validated. perhaps it is best to leave it as is when your head is held high and your boundaries are intact. He has to do all the work himself, and not drag you along with him while he finds his footing. The fact that he brought along his toothbrush already is a loud and clear signal that he thinks he still got it with you - and as much as that is "flattering", you might want to think about what that looks like in relation to your current relationship. e.g., does he not respect that you are already attached or does he think that he has such a hold on you that you will disrespect your current relationship? He thinks he has a hold on me so that any relationship im in wouldnt matter, because I guess that’s how I’ve behaved in the past. However he doesn’t know and didn’t ask whether I am in a relationship right now. There are issues with the current secure boyfriend. Like, big ones, and not related to attachment issues. Emotionally we’re solid. He’s 7 yrs younger and might not be on my life-timeline, although it seems that he’s trying. Everyone thinks he’s great, however, he was depressed during the pandemic and he didn’t really work/save any money for getting engaged or anything he claims to want to do. Recently the pandemic let up and he was able to work again and he seems to be getting it together. But this is just to explain why I’m even entertaining the idea of the avoidant ex. The DA ex has a very steady job, I wouldn’t ever have to be the breadwinner, I’d be able to take time off if we had kids. He’s also ready to have kids. I talked some more with my DA-ex and it was exhausting. I still love him and am attached but I find myself getting constantly frustrated with how he just isn’t there yet on his own and how much of my own energy is required to explain basic stuff to him. It’s a real bummer. I don’t feel uplifted - I feel drained. I also still feel invisible and somewhat unimportant. It’s a bummer to realize that even if I still love him that I don’t think it’s gonna work because he just did too much damage and didn’t start earlier. It’s too little too late. Not to mention he brought over some stuff he thought I’d left at his house a year ago, but it wasn’t my stuff, it was obviously the girl whom he dated for 6 months. I wasn’t offended it just was a reminder that he’s sloppy and careless and doesn’t really remember things because nothing is important to him. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2021 1:23:37 GMT
Totally agree with annieb , that was my first reaction too. I have two things to reflect back to you doctora , because you sound like you are building a great life (a multi-level house!!) and I'd hate for it all to be at risk. 1. "I will go to a session with his therapist for him if he meant it, and I guess I can assess where he’s at." He didn't want to be part of your future when he had the chance, he doesn't get to be part of your future when someone else is holding the right (your current partner). Why on earth would you go to therapy FOR him and WITH him??? that should have been something the two of you do when you were together, if there was any interest in preserving and nurturing the relationship. The only possibility of me doing therapy with my ex is if he was dying but refuses to die because he is so unresolved about the situation, then yea maybe. The fact that you had a closure convo is already more than most. 2. "I wouldn’t give it another try unless I was absolutely certain that he was committed to changing and doing things super differently, and even then, I do not know if I would want to give it another try." It may help to re-examine your commitments to yourself and why you would even entertain the possibility of trying when you already have a current secure partner. I'm glad that you had this conversation and feel validated. perhaps it is best to leave it as is when your head is held high and your boundaries are intact. He has to do all the work himself, and not drag you along with him while he finds his footing. The fact that he brought along his toothbrush already is a loud and clear signal that he thinks he still got it with you - and as much as that is "flattering", you might want to think about what that looks like in relation to your current relationship. e.g., does he not respect that you are already attached or does he think that he has such a hold on you that you will disrespect your current relationship? He thinks he has a hold on me so that any relationship im in wouldnt matter, because I guess that’s how I’ve behaved in the past. However he doesn’t know and didn’t ask whether I am in a relationship right now. There are issues with the current secure boyfriend. Like, big ones, and not related to attachment issues. Emotionally we’re solid. He’s 7 yrs younger and might not be on my life-timeline, although it seems that he’s trying. Everyone thinks he’s great, however, he was depressed during the pandemic and he didn’t really work/save any money for getting engaged or anything he claims to want to do. Recently the pandemic let up and he was able to work again and he seems to be getting it together. But this is just to explain why I’m even entertaining the idea of the avoidant ex. The DA ex has a very steady job, I wouldn’t ever have to be the breadwinner, I’d be able to take time off if we had kids. He’s also ready to have kids. I talked some more with my DA-ex and it was exhausting. I still love him and am attached but I find myself getting constantly frustrated with how he just isn’t there yet on his own and how much of my own energy is required to explain basic stuff to him. It’s a real bummer. I don’t feel uplifted - I feel drained. I also still feel invisible and somewhat unimportant. It’s a bummer to realize that even if I still love him that I don’t think it’s gonna work because he just did too much damage and didn’t start earlier. It’s too little too late. Not to mention he brought over some stuff he thought I’d left at his house a year ago, but it wasn’t my stuff, it was obviously the girl whom he dated for 6 months. I wasn’t offended it just was a reminder that he’s sloppy and careless and doesn’t really remember things because nothing is important to him. EX doesn't sound like he's ready to have kids! He might think he is, or talk like he is, but he certainly doesn't sound like he will step up to it. Glad you are learning where he's at. My ex was rich and had two kids - from my observations, he was financially ok, but I dont think he was ever truly emotionally nor physically available for the kids. Travelled all the time for work, and talks to them every night but always sounds like just "managing" them as he should, rather than truly connecting with them. I also wondered if he liked being with them because he doesn't have to connect with them in an overly intimate fashion; he connects as a father should role-wise (financially, psychologically) but not as an individual. After a while, it affects our relationship because the trust is even less. All that said, on my own journey, i struggled with the potentiality of not having children, either because I can't find anyone and/or past my fertility years and/or the partner may not be able to have/afford kids. I had to fully accept that I may not have children, for whatever reason, and I made peace with that. Then, my decisions were not motivated by children-related stuff (financial, time, physical etc), simply informed by it (willingness, ability, visions, values). I'm sorry to hear it's been exhausting. I wish you all the best. |
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Post by dullboat123 on Aug 19, 2021 2:26:30 GMT
Ok so here’s what happened last night. Went to a high school friends party. My friends have been very good about not inviting me and my ex at the same place. I walk in, my ex was there. Was quite shocked. Got a little upset at our mutual friends for not informing me, because I wouldn’t have come had I known. Things were fine though, i mingled and he mingled separately, and eventually he asked me to sit down and chat. I caught him up on what I had been up to - froze my eggs, bought a house. He started working as an MD in a private practice. We started talking a little bit about what happened with us. I was actually kind of taken aback at how messed up his brain is. He didn’t remember it was last December. He thought it was last year. He didn’t remember I had had surgery. He didn’t remember all these details. He didn’t remember things he said in the end. He also described a typical scenario of pushing things down and distracting himself after the break up. He clearly wanted to discuss everything. He’s been seeing a therapist, and working on self improvement, he said.I told him we could only gloss over it at the party but that I wanted to mingle and if he was serious about having a conversation about this that he could set up an appointment. I don’t know how this happened but he ended up coming over to my new place- he definitely was being a little manipulative, like he was sulking and saying he’d walk home (at 4 in the morning at a dangerous place ), but I saw through it and have guest rooms and other people were crashing too, so I just have everyone a ride to my place. I slept on a different floor than he did. He was very impressed with the house. This morning we talked a lot. I was very honest about how I felt. He does badly want a family and the gist of what I said to him was then you have to get real with yourself because it’s just not going to happen, not with me at least 100%, and maybe not with anyone unless he changes. I said his self improvement is nice but his issue is relational, he’ll never actually get healthier unless he practices this stuff within a relationship. I said this is just insane- if you want a family and you love me and I want a family and we discovered the avoidant thing and were going to a therapist why on earth did you think that the last argument we had warranted dumping me? Which, we also got around to discussing and he saw my points about that topic. I also didn’t understand why he didn’t respond to that letter I sent because it said the same things. He apologized for being a jerk for our entire relationship and asked me if I maybe want to go to a session with his therapist. He also said he’d knows managing conflict and sticking through discomfort is the issue. Also he said that he’s never actually pictured having kids or marrying anyone else. Just like I thought. He also said that someone at the party mentioned to him I might be coming and he had said it was ok, and that HE BROUGHT HIS TOOTHBRUSH with him when they told him I might be coming (Bc he was planning on ending the night at my place….) Current feelings: validated. Relieved. Exhausted. Sort of indifferent. I’m not sure if it’s a closure convo or not. I have such little energy left for the situation. I will go to a session with his therapist for him if he meant it, and I guess I can assess where he’s at. I did get everything out that I’d wanted to say so also that felt good, but it’s nothing I haven’t said before, it just seemed like he was present and heard everything. I covered all the bases of how incongruent his behavior was with someone who wants to have a family with someone they love and wants it to work. He texted me after he left that says : “I am super uncomfortable right now but I am ok with it ” Again, have no idea how I’m feeling right now other than validated. I don’t know if I have any emotional attraction left. There is some but it’s been eroded. I wouldn’t give it another try unless I was absolutely certain that he was committed to changing and doing things super differently, and even then, I do not know if I would want to give it another try. I guess we will see what he does. My hopes have not gone up or down, they’re exactly the same. Just wanted to update everyone You got me at "he brought his toothbrush". What a creep! Sorry. I applaud you for healing enough to be indifferent to him. He is clearly way over his head expecting you to be still longing for him. I personally would GO to that therapy with him and deliberately just talk about him 100% of the time. Just keep sending barrage after barrage of rockets at him during the session and see him squirm like the worm he is. He will most definitely try to switch the focus back onto you. Do not allow that. If he tries to do that, walk out. Its him NOT you. Its 100% him. |
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Post by krolle on Aug 22, 2021 12:39:50 GMT
This thread is extremely triggering for me lol. But I'm really happy to hear that you have made some progress Doctora. I love it when people in a lot of pain get some kind of relief. Hey krolle…I would like to hear more about how this thread triggers you. If you prefer, you can PM me but I think it is useful to understand each other’s triggers. Sure, I'll try my best without completely hijacking the thread if it's useful for others to hear. Thankyou for asking. I suppose conflicting feelings about what is being said trigger me. Mostly shame based as usual. For a start I'm angry that Doctora' s ex was arrogant enough to assume to bring his toothbrush to the event. Even if he did still have feelings for her and hope they might hook up or something, the fact that he would tell her he brought it smacks of Narcassism. Conversely, and somewhat hypocritically however I felt triggered because I'v been in his shoes (Though with less arrogance and entitlement). At least in terms of the sentiment this thread has toward him. And it was awful. The way you are dismissed as a terrible person because you are struggling with your ability to relate. I was at an event with mutual friends too. And got almost surrounded by a sassy hostile group of women telling me I'm a horrible person, and to my ex "you can do better than this piece of crap" etc. It makes you feel hopeless. And terribly ashamed. I was certainly a lot younger so a little more vulnerable. But I internalized everything they said, I remember going home and crying myself to sleep, knowing I was somehow broken and I had hurt the person I loved, and I couldn't understand why. I would also add I never cheated on this girl or treated in her in a particularly abusive manner. I just wasn't as emotionally available as she wanted me to be. Avoidant in other words. The second thing that triggered me about this thread is shining star's comment that he missed his chance whilst in the relationship, too little too late kinda thing. Because I'v had the same said to me when trying to reconcile. "I'm not talking to you anymore, you had your chance while we were together. Buzz off" It triggers me because I know I couldn't have done more with the tools I had whilst in the relationship. When an (unaware) avoidant's nervous system is triggered by intense conflict and intimate demand, the only remedy is distance, especially an introverted highly sensative avoidant. I had to be away from the person, both physically and emotionally. Only when I had that distance was I able to process my emotions, my thoughts, my ever mercurial feelings. Whilst things were rocky, but I was still in the relationship, her AP strategy just triggered me more and more. More demands for affection, more dismissing who I was, more attempts to control me, more tears and anger. I was too sensative for that intensity and everything in me shut down until I could get space to breathe. Once the nervous system calmed down I was able to appreciate her again. And regain my empathy for her pain. Now I do understand in hind sight that an unaware Avoidant, especially with FA tendencies is likely to come and go in a not very healthy way. And that it's probably not the best idea for doctora to revisit this relationship. But I have to believe we are redeemable if doing the work. That we have a chance for love. And I know for me I have to believe somebody will forgive my need for space from the relationship at times. I would like to say my post is not designed as a personal attack on anyone. Or to invalidate shining stars comment. It's just my wounds. And ultimately my problem. So I apologize. And still value all of you on this thread. I wouldn't be reading it if I didn't. Just letting you know my internal world as candidly as I can. |
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Post by tnr9 on Aug 22, 2021 22:24:04 GMT
Hey krolle …I would like to hear more about how this thread triggers you. If you prefer, you can PM me but I think it is useful to understand each other’s triggers. Sure, I'll try my best without completely hijacking the thread if it's useful for others to hear. Thankyou for asking. I suppose conflicting feelings about what is being said trigger me. Mostly shame based as usual. For a start I'm angry that Doctora' s ex was arrogant enough to assume to bring his toothbrush to the event. Even if he did still have feelings for her and hope they might hook up or something, the fact that he would tell her he brought it smacks of Narcassism. Conversely, and somewhat hypocritically however I felt triggered because I'v been in his shoes (Though with less arrogance and entitlement). At least in terms of the sentiment this thread has toward him. And it was awful. The way you are dismissed as a terrible person because you are struggling with your ability to relate. I was at an event with mutual friends too. And got almost surrounded by a sassy hostile group of women telling me I'm a horrible person, and to my ex "you can do better than this piece of crap" etc. It makes you feel hopeless. And terribly ashamed. I was certainly a lot younger so a little more vulnerable. But I internalized everything they said, I remember going home and crying myself to sleep, knowing I was somehow broken and I had hurt the person I loved, and I couldn't understand why. I would also add I never cheated on this girl or treated in her in a particularly abusive manner. I just wasn't as emotionally available as she wanted me to be. Avoidant in other words. The second thing that triggered me about this thread is shining star's comment that he missed his chance whilst in the relationship, too little too late kinda thing. Because I'v had the same said to me when trying to reconcile. "I'm not talking to you anymore, you had your chance while we were together. Buzz off" It triggers me because I know I couldn't have done more with the tools I had whilst in the relationship. When an (unaware) avoidant's nervous system is triggered by intense conflict and intimate demand, the only remedy is distance, especially an introverted highly sensative avoidant. I had to be away from the person, both physically and emotionally. Only when I had that distance was I able to process my emotions, my thoughts, my ever mercurial feelings. Whilst things were rocky, but I was still in the relationship, her AP strategy just triggered me more and more. More demands for affection, more dismissing who I was, more attempts to control me, more tears and anger. I was too sensative for that intensity and everything in me shut down until I could get space to breathe. Once the nervous system calmed down I was able to appreciate her again. And regain my empathy for her pain. Now I do understand in hind sight that an unaware Avoidant, especially with FA tendencies is likely to come and go in a not very healthy way. And that it's probably not the best idea for doctora to revisit this relationship. But I have to believe we are redeemable if doing the work. That we have a chance for love. And I know for me I have to believe somebody will forgive my need for space from the relationship at times. I would like to say my post is not designed as a personal attack on anyone. Or to invalidate shining stars comment. It's just my wounds. And ultimately my problem. So I apologize. And still value all of you on this thread. I wouldn't be reading it if I didn't. Just letting you know my internal world as candidly as I can. Thank you krolle…I think your insight into your inner workings is amazing and it really helps to see the complexities around insecure relationships. Friends would tell me I could do “better” then B but I knew I had a role in things. I also knew that he never meant to hurt me, even though he did. I want to take time to reread this and respond with a bit more feedback once I am back to a regular sleep schedule (I was working at 5 am this morning so I am a bit tired). |
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Post by annieb on Aug 23, 2021 1:02:07 GMT
I think it’s also because we’ve followed doctora’s story for a while now, and for me it would totally break my heart if she did go back to him or did his “therapy” with him. I think it would reverse all her hard work that she’s done, and that she has struggled and made great strides to achieve. And when you read her writing you can feel her pain and attachment and she still went ahead and did all these great things for herself in the face of the overwhelming codependency that was palpable.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2021 2:56:03 GMT
Hey krolle …I would like to hear more about how this thread triggers you. If you prefer, you can PM me but I think it is useful to understand each other’s triggers. Sure, I'll try my best without completely hijacking the thread if it's useful for others to hear. Thankyou for asking. I suppose conflicting feelings about what is being said trigger me. Mostly shame based as usual. For a start I'm angry that Doctora' s ex was arrogant enough to assume to bring his toothbrush to the event. Even if he did still have feelings for her and hope they might hook up or something, the fact that he would tell her he brought it smacks of Narcassism. Conversely, and somewhat hypocritically however I felt triggered because I'v been in his shoes (Though with less arrogance and entitlement). At least in terms of the sentiment this thread has toward him. And it was awful. The way you are dismissed as a terrible person because you are struggling with your ability to relate. I was at an event with mutual friends too. And got almost surrounded by a sassy hostile group of women telling me I'm a horrible person, and to my ex "you can do better than this piece of crap" etc. It makes you feel hopeless. And terribly ashamed. I was certainly a lot younger so a little more vulnerable. But I internalized everything they said, I remember going home and crying myself to sleep, knowing I was somehow broken and I had hurt the person I loved, and I couldn't understand why. I would also add I never cheated on this girl or treated in her in a particularly abusive manner. I just wasn't as emotionally available as she wanted me to be. Avoidant in other words. The second thing that triggered me about this thread is shining star's comment that he missed his chance whilst in the relationship, too little too late kinda thing. Because I'v had the same said to me when trying to reconcile. "I'm not talking to you anymore, you had your chance while we were together. Buzz off" It triggers me because I know I couldn't have done more with the tools I had whilst in the relationship. When an (unaware) avoidant's nervous system is triggered by intense conflict and intimate demand, the only remedy is distance, especially an introverted highly sensative avoidant. I had to be away from the person, both physically and emotionally. Only when I had that distance was I able to process my emotions, my thoughts, my ever mercurial feelings. Whilst things were rocky, but I was still in the relationship, her AP strategy just triggered me more and more. More demands for affection, more dismissing who I was, more attempts to control me, more tears and anger. I was too sensative for that intensity and everything in me shut down until I could get space to breathe. Once the nervous system calmed down I was able to appreciate her again. And regain my empathy for her pain. Now I do understand in hind sight that an unaware Avoidant, especially with FA tendencies is likely to come and go in a not very healthy way. And that it's probably not the best idea for doctora to revisit this relationship. But I have to believe we are redeemable if doing the work. That we have a chance for love. And I know for me I have to believe somebody will forgive my need for space from the relationship at times. I would like to say my post is not designed as a personal attack on anyone. Or to invalidate shining stars comment. It's just my wounds. And ultimately my problem. So I apologize. And still value all of you on this thread. I wouldn't be reading it if I didn't. Just letting you know my internal world as candidly as I can. I apologize for triggering you krolle, and I definitely don't mean that you (or DAs/FAs) aren't lovable or worthy of a chance. I'll just elaborate on my perspective for the purposes of sharing knowledge and improving understanding. This is solely from my own experiences, so ymmv. My experience is that when unaware das withdraw, it can be without warning and with no clarity as to whether the rship is still "ongoing" (maybe in their heads they are still in the rship but it is not clear to me). They can disappear for weeks and at some point, I assume the rship has ended and try to make peace with it and move on. This is usually when they come back acting like nothing has happened. In the time that they have taken space to process their feelings, I've also processed my feelings of abandonment and tried to move on from it. When they reappear acting like the rship is fine, I thought that maybe I was just crazy and overreacted, so I re-engage in the rship trying not to be the crazy drama queen. But I was, because I was constantly feeling gaslighted. There's an implicit assumption or expectation that I have to welcome them back in an ideal loving frame of mind and move on from the conflict because THEY have; in my mind, I was already dumped. The problem isn't with needing space - the issue is with stonewalling and non-communicative withdrawal with no deadline. It really looks like ghosting from the other side, even if the unaware DA thinks it's just taking space for themselves. The way I described it to my ex is this - I am not a hotel for you to come and go as you please, solely on your terms. You come into my life, trash my place, leave, and then expect to come back to a perfectly made room when you feel like it. I understand now that APs can be very draining and give very little space. The way I see it now is that it is a vicious cycle of giving too little and taking too much space as individuals fighting to reclaim power, rather than as a shared partnership in guarding each other's security and solitude. My comment is based on this - if one has already moved on (with a new house and partner), there needs to be a recognition that the time for this sort of re-engagement (therapy and sleepovers etc to develop tools together) is over; it is psychologically disruptive and draining on the self, not to mention little respect for your current life and partner. If there was to be re-engagement, it has to be on a new slate in a different form, when both parties are free to do so and have independently equipped themselves with some tools. You cannot come back to the same place where you ended it, and expect the relationship to go in a different direction. You both have to go to a different place and travel differently, to reach a new destination. All that you are describing can hold true simultaneously. That the unaware insecure is struggling to relate and does not have the tools. That the other party does not need to give space or re-engage in another's healing journey. That people can still try to reconcile and act in unhealthy ways. That I could be changed and still not be forgiven. I think needing and taking space is normal, and everyone has that need to a certain extent. What is key here is communicating, understanding, accepting, and adapting to each other's needs. To be very clear, I think everyone deserves love and have their needs to be respected. I don't think of insecures as needing "forgiveness" and "redeeming", to borrow your words. That is indicative of sin; there may be wrongdoing, blame and fault (on all ends), but it is not a sin. My stance is that healthy relationships have three parts: me, you, and us. For each part to thrive, there are various skills to be learnt and practiced; for those with a healthy childhood with good role models, these skills were more effortlessly developed. For the rest of us, it's an ongoing effort to discover, explore, and learn these things - and that is what we are here on the forum for! There are 2 side notes here that relate to other convos extant in the forum: 1. APs don't have alot of security in themselves and therefore do not fully trust their own minds and hearts. That is why APs continuously engage with unhealthy relationships rather than drawing a line and ending it, and why it is very triggering to be blamed for "trying hard". 2. This expectation of "ideal frame of mind" is what triggers APs because resentment builds up; APs try very hard to be in that frame of mind but it is simply unrealistic and unsustainable, particularly when coupled with being confused (see #1). This is why the default advice for APs here is "look at yourself and figure out why are you continuing a pattern of behavior that you know hurts you". |
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