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Post by BreakingTheSpell on Mar 23, 2018 0:14:05 GMT
I didnt take it like that. Indeed, you need to figure out by yourself what you are willing to tolerate. Juniper and I offer different points of view because we have different needs, and none of them are invalid. I am not anti DA, in fact I have received the greatest and wisest support in this forum from DAs and FAs. I am slightly avoidant myself, who happened to be paired with somebody much more avoidant, and as a consequence I shifted into ambivalent mode. I am ANTI: - fantasy - endlessly hoping that the partner will revert back to normal (normal for you or normal for him?) - abuse (which is sometimes a relative term, because it depends on the perception of the receiving end)
Take the time to check if this is just a temporary behavior or not. Observe and dont suppress what is important for you. Best of lucks!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 0:16:15 GMT
I didnt take it like that. Indeed, you need to figure out by yourself what you are willing to tolerate. Juniper and I offer different points of view because we have different needs, and none of them are invalid. I am not anti DA, in fact I have received the greatest and wisest support in this forum from DAs and FAs. I am slightly avoidant myself, who happened to be paired with somebody much more avoidant, and as a consequence I shifted into ambivalent mode. I am ANTI: - fantasy - endlessly hoping that the partner will revert back to normal (normal for you or normal for him?) - abuse (which is sometimes a relative term, because it depends on the perception of the receiving end) Take the time to check if this is just a temporary behavior or not. Observe and dont suppress what is important for you. Best of lucks! we agree though! Don't suppress your needs. Advocate for yourself and don't prioritize him. Find out, then decide. I love this stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 0:17:43 GMT
Yes, my dreamboat owns a business too and sometimes things come up. He has to take care of it at night or on weekends because he also works at the same place I do. His kids also throw a wrench in because they will ask to spend the evening with him and he won't (and shouldn't) say no. I totally support that. He will have to visit a work site for his business an hour away. He'll leave for there around 7:30pm after working all day and tell me he'll be over after. I've learned that there is no way he'll be over because he won't be back in the area until 11:30-12. He has NO CONCEPT OF TIME. He really thinks he'll be over but I'll get a text at midnight saying he just got home. YEP. and for me, i don't remember years, how long ago something happened, what day it is, blah blah blah. No concept of time. Idk. it's hard.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 0:48:10 GMT
I guess what it boils down to, is really trying to understand how your partner thinks and trying to see things through their eyes, with compassion. Then, you have to see if you can deal with it. I have so much more compassion for him now because I no longer think he's nuts. Seriously, who does some of this stuff? Now I know. He really really is not being an idiot, it's just how he thinks, how he's set up. I'm sure he would think I was insane if he knew I cried when he cancelled at the last minute. And, if I truly look at it, I was. Wth? I need to get a life. I'm crying because he sucks at time? Today, we had lunch in my office. When he was walking out the door, he blew a quick kiss and off he went. I was upset because he didn't actually hug or kiss me. I am very physical. I will snuggle the stuffing out of him whenever I can. He will cuddle but I've realized that he is a hand holder. He always reaches for my hand, in the car or while we are walking. AP's tend to think something is wrong if we don't get that kiss or hug but he's just not thinking about it. I had to tell myself that. If I asked him for hug, I know he would have given it to me. Oh boy, I hope things w ork out or I'm really gonna miss him. [ i don't know if you read the thread "How" that addressed some of this but i gave a plant example. I know that some things about me are challenging (for some) and i would never want someone to hurt themselves in order to be with me. But also, i try to compromise where i can! The things that are innate are very difficult to even want to change. at some point, i have to be true to my nature. I am sure that i will always have avoidant habits even if emotionally i am not avoidant any more. In a life time you can only change so much and you certainly shouldn't have to change everything. It's difficult on our end also. I was researching how to date well. There is only advice that says, make pans in advance. So, in order to try to do it right, i made an internal rule, if he didn't plan like 48-72 hours in advance, i was unavailable. that was the advice. So i did that and i realized i absolutely hated living that way. i never have lived that way and i hate it. Not Gonna Do it. So i got nervous that he whole thing sucked and i had to forget it. Instead, i just threw out that rule and got comfortable that it wasn't for me. And, it's an area that my partner and i are compatible so it's nobody's business. I would not inflict that on a partner that had different needs, it would be a deal breaker. i wouldn't pretend to be able to do that. I know that i am different this way. So my only priority is to never let down my kids. that's the big thing to me. So i have alarms all day to tell me what to do, when. Before o had a cell phone i used signs around my house and car to tell me to check the time and what time i needed to be somewhere. I let my kids down once or twice before i got good at it and it almost killed me. it doesn't happen. It's the best i can do, as far as time. i show up to my office on time (self employed ) and appointments at the doctor etc. But my personal life, it's too much after all that. i get exhausted by more schedule than that.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 1:44:38 GMT
Yes, I actually was just reading that thread and I like your plant analogy. The time thing seems to be the biggest deal with him. His kids have soooo much sports stuff. They both play hockey and there are practices during the week at night and games all weekend. They are on different teams and sometimes they both have games in different towns on the same day, sometimes out of state. It is a crazy schedule. They also have other sports. He is running ragged all the time. Hockey season is the worst though. We started dating right after the season ended last year so that's why I have hope things will be different after the season ends. Every time, I want to plan something, he says, "I have to check the schedule". I'd think, seriously, you don't know what next weeks schedule looks like? See? You helped me again. It's a DA trait. Anyway, it's who you are. You should never have to change yourself for someone else. If you want to, and you can, ok. I know I can deal with certain things like the time thing. He is sooo worth that hassle. I don't feel that is changing myself though. I'm just choosing to understand it and accept it as part of who he is. It is not changing my moral compass or who I am. The 2 dates in 2 months? That is bad bad bad... We are not broken, Juniper. We are what God made us and God don't make no junk! yes the time thing is the hardest for me also. i have changed a LOT but that i can't seem to. he is doing more than i would be able to. I can't have my kids in that much stuff because of this issue but they do have activities we can manage. They like the freedom and ease too actually. But yes, you need more time outside of work. Honestly, i would not do that either. I have a sex drive and wouldn't go for that for a minute!! lol! but it's more than that. I hope that he is in a temporary pinch like he says. It sounds realistic to me. and yes the more you share the more he sounds like a DA. he sounds so much like me actually but i am not that busy. i check my schedule daily to know what is on it. I don't know about next week either. I didn't know people did. do you? that's hard to imagine. i mean, i now there are some things but i mark it as soon as i know about it and then have to check every day, several times a day to stay on track. and i'm not that busy.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 14:17:15 GMT
@future, i thought about this and realized i should clarify something. My DA relationship DOES have periods of less time together, and is flexible that way according to the needs of one or both of us. The important thing between us is contact and communication. So, for a time right now, my partner and i are not seeing each other in person much. He has just had a painful procedure on his shoulder and is having to adjust his routine, and also making changes in his business. I, am going through some of my own internal things that are good for me and my life but take a priority.
So, we talk every day by voice and text throughout , as is convenient. Short well wishes, or send him pictures of things in my day and he responds right away to stay in touch. but nothing intense. The phone calls , we catch up and share more, half hour or so.
I am the more demonstrative of the two so i just sent him a text thanking him for his presence in my life. little sweetnesses go a Looooooong way for us even if we don't see each other. I don't feel deprived tho i miss him naturally.
periods like this actually strengthen our bond, for us. We are supporting each other in what each of us needs to do. This will always be a natural need for avoidants, because our priorities are outside of romance.
I have offered assistance for his shoulder issue but i know he won't take it because he relies on no one. But i accept that, i don't take it personally. I am the same. I imagine if either of us got to a place of being incapacitated somehow we would have to adjust something.
So, there are times when our connection changes form. But the partnership isn't threatened because we are in cooperation. we will resume our other mode when it works. It took us time to be able to relax into that. But if we aren't in contact as much we stay on the same page with communicating. the important thing is that no one feels confused or alienated.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 14:42:14 GMT
I think it's a DA trait used for distancing, not necessarily a DA trait (it's not who I am). I can definitely plan in advance and stick to the plan in most areas of my life. I actually prefer to keep a schedule. However, I can and have used time as a distancing option. If I feel smothered, annoyed or someone is asking for too much time, I will use it to distance.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 17:21:51 GMT
In my opinion, it is just a matter of time until a "permanently stressed partner" turns to you and accuses you or the relationship as being the cause for his stress, particularly if you dare stating what you dont like and asking for your needs to be met. Some of the sources of stress he can control, and some others not. In an attempt to gain back control, he may cut you loose, because he firmly believes that getting rid of you will restore his balance, which is not the case. BreakingTheSpell I think you just twigged a lot for me. Thank you for this comment!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 19:53:31 GMT
I think it's a DA trait used for distancing, not necessarily a DA trait (it's not who I am). I can definitely plan in advance and stick to the plan in most areas of my life. I actually prefer to keep a schedule. However, I can and have used time as a distancing option. If I feel smothered, annoyed or someone is asking for too much time, I will use it to distance. i think it's very individual actually. i don't have any feelings of being smothered , i just struggle with structured time, period. I have routines for my kids and other practical areas but otherwise i need things loose. I have considered it quite a bit, whether it comes from not having logistical stability as a kid, but being oppressed emotionally, also being driven into my imagination by feeling isolated all my life, and years of living in a dissociated state that i was unaware of. I think it's complex for me. I literally have a time-recognition deficit and it occurs across the board even with things that are important and crucial to my well being. Even to figure out time to arrange a day i have to take special care to pause and count out time allotments. it's just a real struggle. I think it comes from personality tendencies also. I am a non-linear in a lot of processes, mentally and in my routines. I'm artistic and creative, maybe that plays in. Very fluid and freeform. So that's why i wrote that some DA's can plan, some don't. I have friends that are great time keepers and like plans, and i have those that aren't. Thankfully in my particular relationship we both are very similar and spontaneity works well. If we miss something together, we make it up ASAP. It's just very fluid. Otherwise i have no social plans, i am spontaneous and i have friends that love that too. So i think we just tend to end up with people on a similar wavelength (if we like to avoid hassles, which i do lol) I love hearing the experience of other avoidants, it helps me with some internal things.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 20:05:43 GMT
juniper, I agree, I think it's individual. I'm sure there are people of all styles that have time issues, and for different reasons. My really good friend who is AP is late all the time, cancels and changes times. I think it's a time management thing for her.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 22:36:07 GMT
In my opinion, it is just a matter of time until a "permanently stressed partner" turns to you and accuses you or the relationship as being the cause for his stress, particularly if you dare stating what you dont like and asking for your needs to be met. Some of the sources of stress he can control, and some others not. In an attempt to gain back control, he may cut you loose, because he firmly believes that getting rid of you will restore his balance, which is not the case. i see this a little differently. I find a lot of DA men to be hyper responsible in their lives, and very reliable for their friends, careers, dependent parents if they are old enough, etc. It's a generalization but i see it quite a bit. The thing is, the priority for a DA isn't a romantic relationship. if their relationship is difficult, a DA partner will not go as far to try to salvage it as an anxious partner would. it can be a very realistic view, to them. Most DA i know understand full well that they are likely to be unable to satisfy the needs of a lot of partners. and will readily admit it. I have seen DA release a relationship because it would not realistically meet the needs of the partner. But they can't win. Release the relationship, they are bad. Stay, they are inadequate. The answer, to keep a particular partner, is is to change. Fundamentally. Ok. But many like their lives and priorities (and selves ) the way they are even if it is stressful, and they do a lot of good in the world taking care of their chosen priorities. Being unable to have a satisfying relationship with a particular partner (especially an anxious partner, because this is an extremely challenging dynamic for both) does not make one a bad and selfish person. And control of ones life, time, and priorities is not bad either. I wonder how many incredible people in my life that I don't need a romantic relationship with , are DA, and amazing at what they do for me. An intimate romantic relationship is not necessarily the magnum opus of a DA's life and that's ok. Something else is. I'm sure the world is a better place for it, actually! A human life does not have to be a romantically satisfying one to be deeply meaningful and valuable to the person living it. If we DA want an intimate relationship, we have to do deep work like anyone else. But we might not need to morph for one partner like we would for another. That's ok too!!! And saying nothing bad about a partner. If two people are incompatible who is the wrong one? l I think we all have the freedom to choose the life we want to live. And, i have seen my partner really examining what he can change to achieve balance. He has had losses and pain and he is over stressed. This is not uncommon in the world today. Our relationship is not difficult and he makes an effort to adjust things to be available. He is humble about his inadequacy to be a good partner for lots of women who need more. He isn't insensitive to that. But he also is dedicated to what is important to him. that is often , service to others. It happens that i am much the same and that's why we work. He doesn't blame me for his stress, at all. I admire him. If our relationship was too difficult to maintain, we would stop. But i still would admire and respect his own force of will to do what is important to him. He is a work in progress. So am I. So is everyone on the board. An AP/DA partnership is one of the most difficult and traumatic possible, without huge awareness and mutual humility to work on individual issues. Generalky, I don't think there is enough humble recognition of the shared responsibility for the difficulty of this dynamic. But , depending on the individuals and factors unrelated to attachment style, with awareness and work it could be sustainable. There are lots of things that would have to go right in support of it- but it's not impossible. If it doesn't work, who is wrong? It's two people with attachment injuries. Mercy and understanding can go to both sides.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2018 0:41:48 GMT
i had so many typos in there. i need to go fix them lol. and clarify something- but thank you.
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Post by ocarina on Mar 24, 2018 23:52:34 GMT
Juniper that is very very well said - so often the DA talks about the mad ex and the AP about the emotionally disabled ex - the reality is we are all struggling in our own way to make sense of the world.
It is so tempting, when we are hurt, to lay blame at the other person's door and yet in doing so we miss the golden opportunity to address our own demons and to heal.
Thanks for posting this.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2018 3:30:47 GMT
Juniper that is very very well said - so often the DA talks about the mad ex and the AP about the emotionally disabled ex - the reality is we are all struggling in our own way to make sense of the world. It is so tempting, when we are hurt, to lay blame at the other person's door and yet in doing so we miss the golden opportunity to address our own demons and to heal. Thanks for posting this. people kind of get painted with such a broad stroke.... black or white. what the what?!? We can't paint ourselves with all pretty colors, with infinite shades and hues .... and paint the " other side" with shades of gray to black.... that's just ---- well, its not nice or realistic and i don't want to get caught up in doing it
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Post by goldilocks on Mar 25, 2018 11:31:55 GMT
i see this a little differently. I find a lot of DA men to be hyper responsible in their lives, and very reliable for their friends, careers, dependent parents if they are old enough, etc. It's a generalization but i see it quite a bit. The thing is, the priority for a DA isn't a romantic relationship. if their relationship is difficult, a DA partner will not go as far to try to salvage it as an anxious partner would. it can be a very realistic view, to them. Most DA i know understand full well that they are likely to be unable to satisfy the needs of a lot of partners. and will readily admit it. I have seen DA release a relationship because it would not realistically meet the needs of the partner. But they can't win. Release the relationship, they are bad. Stay, they are inadequate. The answer, to keep a particular partner, is is to change. Fundamentally. Ok. But many like their lives and priorities (and selves ) the way they are even if it is stressful, and they do a lot of good in the world taking care of their chosen priorities. Good point. One thing I also notice is that there is some interaction between the masculine role in our society and the methods that DA men use to create some distance. Working long hours and hopefully building a career and earning a lot of money is highly appreciated in society, even moreso in men. Our culture expects men to climb the ladder relentlessly, and once marriage and kids are in the picture, puts even more pressure on men to provide a certain lifestyle. ( I'm emphasizing the role of society here, because these days, it is often not that his wife does not have a good income, that he really wants a swanky car or she really wants a big wedding. Often, the pressure is diffuse and comes from friends and relatives asking "So, who will be your wedding planner" "When will you move out of this apartment?" and "Why don't you get a bigger car with the kid?") Yet at the same time, a married man will also feel pressure to be a good husband and father, to look sexy and be a good lover and have an exciting life. (Women are under similar pressures but with less focus on material succes.) When a man is DA, he will find plenty of opportunities to work long hours in our society and doing so will reward him with succes and a positive self image. It is also more socially acceptable to not go on a date because you are working overtime than to say you need some alone time on the weekend to stay home and relax. This turns into a vicious circle. His date has a lot of expectations he cannot meet, his job has a lot of expectations he can meet. Work is rewarding, dating is not so rewarding. As part of my life journey, I started working less. I have also simplified my life. It has helped me find the time to enjoy my own company on the regular and also have an active social life. I have more time and emotional space to share with others, because I give to myself first. As a woman, I find that it is generally seen as acceptable to work less, as people assume I'm doing traditionally feminine things instead. Men often don't see themselves as able to negotiate fewer hours even when it is financially feasible. In a society that expects us to excel at everything and to say yes to everyone, there is so much pressure. To be happy, and say yes to what we really truly want, we need to say no to, and if needed disappoint, some. Sometimes that means saying no to overtime, sometimes it means saying no to a great body or exiting social life and to some it means saying no to a relationship.
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